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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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Hebrews 10:26 challenge

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  • Hebrews 10:26 challenge

    Hebrews 10:26,
    . . . εκουσιως γαρ αμαρτανοντων ημων μετα το λαβειν την επιγνωσιν της αληθειας ουκ ετι περι αμαρτιων απολειπεται θυσια. . . .

    Has a long standing traditional understanding being translated,
    . . . For [if] we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

    Here is the challenge:
    . . . For we [do] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

    How does that reading change your understanding of that text and its context?

    And not just these:

    . . . we know Him . . . v.30

    . . . we are not of them . . . v.39.

    Its whole context . . . 10-39.
    Last edited by 37818; 09-10-2016, 10:50 AM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Hebrews 10:26,
    . . . εκουσιως γαρ αμαρτανοντων ημων μετα το λαβειν την επιγνωσιν της αληθειας ουκ ετι περι αμαρτιων απολειπεται θυσια. . . .

    Has a long standing traditional understanding being translated,
    . . . For [if] we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

    Here is the challenge:
    . . . For we [do] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

    How does that reading change your understanding of that text and its context?

    And not just these:

    . . . we know Him . . . v.30

    . . . we are not of them . . . v.39.

    Its whole context . . . 10-39.
    Counter-challenge: find ONE translation or commentary which supports your alternative. Even the translations on Bible Gateway which go through an intermediate language (Latin) agree with the traditional understanding.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Counter-challenge: find ONE translation or commentary which supports your alternative. Even the translations on Bible Gateway which go through an intermediate language (Latin) agree with the traditional understanding.
      Young's Literal Translation:
      . . . For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, . . .

      Darby Translation:
      . . . For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, . . .

      The question I have is the exegetic justification for "if" which is not there. Please feel free to justify it. Give the exegetic justification.

      For my understanding of Hebrews 10:26 goes to a larger context - 1 John 1:8, 10 for example. And, ". . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . ." I see refers back to v.10 & v.18.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Young's Literal Translation:
        . . . For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, . . .

        Darby Translation:
        . . . For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, . . .

        The question I have is the exegetic justification for "if" which is not there. Please feel free to justify it. Give the exegetic justification.

        For my understanding of Hebrews 10:26 goes to a larger context - 1 John 1:8, 10 for example. And, ". . . there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . ." I see refers back to v.10 & v.18.
        In 1 John, particularly chapter 2, John is speaking of habitually or continually or making a practice of sinning.

        Meanwhile, Barnes' notes on Hebrews 10:26:
        (1) It is the natural and obvious interpretation, such as would occur probably to ninety-nine readers in a hundred, if there were no theory to support, and no fear that it would conflict with some other doctrine.

        (2) it accords with the scope of the Epistle, which is, to keep those whom the apostle addressed from returning again to the Jewish religion, under the trials to which they were subjected.

        (3) it is in accordance with the fair meaning of the language - the words "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth," referring more naturally to true conversion than to any other state of mind.

        (4) the sentiment would not be correct if it referred to any but real Christians. It would not be true that one who had been somewhat enlightened, and who then sinned "wilfully," must look on fearfully to the judgment without a possibility of being saved. There are multitudes of cases where such persons are saved. They "wilfully" resist the Holy Spirit; they strive against him; they for a long time refuse to yield, but they are brought again to reflection, and are led to give their hearts to God.

        (5) it is true, and always will be true, that if a sincere Christian should apostatize he could never be converted again; see the notes on Hebrews 6:4-6. The reasons are obvious. He would have tried the only plan of salvation, and it would have failed. He would have embraced the Saviour, and there would not have been efficacy enough in his blood to keep him, and there would be no more powerful Saviour and no more efficacious blood of atonement. He would have renounced the Holy Spirit, and would have shown that his influences were not effectual to keep him, and there would be no other agent of greater power to renew and save him after he had apostatized. For these reasons it seems clear to me that this passage refers to true Christians, and that the doctrine here taught is, that if such an one should apostatize, he must look forward only to the terrors of the judgment, and to final condemnation.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Young's Literal Translation:
          . . . For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, . . .

          Darby Translation:
          . . . For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins, . . .

          The question I have is the exegetic justification for "if" which is not there.
          Neither of these supports your insertion of "do" instead of "if". The YLT, as a literal translation, simply omits any explanatory gloss, which only serves to highlight the limitations of an overly literal attempt at translation. The Darby translation is much more akin to "if" than "do".
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Neither of these supports your insertion of "do" instead of "if". The YLT, as a literal translation, simply omits any explanatory gloss, which only serves to highlight the limitations of an overly literal attempt at translation. The Darby translation is much more akin to "if" than "do".
            How does the addition of "if" to "we" change the meaning of Hebrews 10:26? [The same question, "how does . . . change the meaning of Hebrews 10:26?" Can be imposed regarding adding "do" after "we."]

            Proverbs 30:6,

            . . . Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #7
              What are you trying to argue 37818?

              All sin is willful. You can't "accidentally" sin, can you? So it can't mean ordinary sinning because we still do that every day, and do so willingly. We choose to sin. Normally we regret this and know we did wrong and ask for forgiveness. And we get it. Right?

              So obviously it has to mean something more. Like purposefully being evil, or not caring that we sin. Like saying "yeah I know that killing is a sin, but heck, I like it so I am going to keep on being a serial killer and I am forgiven! God said so! haha!" or "so what if adultery is a sin? I want to cheat on my wife, so I am going to do it as long as I don't get caught! I have no regrets"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                What are you trying to argue 37818?

                All sin is willful. You can't "accidentally" sin, can you? So it can't mean ordinary sinning because we still do that every day, and do so willingly. We choose to sin. Normally we regret this and know we did wrong and ask for forgiveness. And we get it. Right?

                So obviously it has to mean something more. Like purposefully being evil, or not caring that we sin. Like saying "yeah I know that killing is a sin, but heck, I like it so I am going to keep on being a serial killer and I am forgiven! God said so! haha!" or "so what if adultery is a sin? I want to cheat on my wife, so I am going to do it as long as I don't get caught! I have no regrets"
                Yeah, Christians don't sin because we HAVE to - we sin because we want to. As we grow closer to Christ, we don't become sinless, but we certainly should sin less.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If 37818's main question is “where did the ‘if’ come from?” It simply comes from the process of turning a participle into a subordinate clause. Using a lot of “ing” verbs is both awkward and unenlightening, so the translator uses context and subjective judgment to determine the “flavor” of the participle.
                  It could be Temporal: When we sin...
                  Or Concessive: Although we sin...
                  Or Causal: Because we sin...
                  The standard Conditional used with this verse, “If we sin willfully,” is really a variation on the Temporal that avoids the implication that this sin (and the judgment described in the next verse) is a definite and foregone conclusion. Sort of “When and/or if we sin...”
                  It is the subjective interpretation of the translator, but it seems to be the best option here.

                  I wonder if 37818 could be suggesting that “there remains no more sacrifice for sin” is being used in the same positive way it was used in verse 18. No more sacrifice remains, because it is neither necessary nor useful to offer any sacrifices to add to the one perfect sacrifice that has already been made.
                  So you might translate, “Even though we still sin willingly after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins remains.” I.E. we are still forgiven, and it would be unnecessary and wrong to try to give God a sacrifice for that willing sin. Don’t worry about willing sins; they’re covered.

                  A problem with that take on the verse is the very harsh warning of the following verses. What remains is not any sacrifice, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire.
                  There is also the implication of verse 29 that the one who has done so is trampling God’s Son under foot, profaning Christ’s blood, and insulting the Spirit. That doesn’t sound like, “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s covered.”

                  I take verse 26 either as describing a sin that isn’t just doing something willingly, but with a rebellious willfulness that says, “I don’t care that Christ died for me. I’m going to do whatever I want to spite his sacrifice.” Or else that all willful sins, done with full awareness that they are sinful and condemnatory in God’s sight, and not done in the weakness that tries hard to fight them but fails, do indeed separate a person from God and subject him to fearful expectation of judgment, but not unredeemably. It’s not the unforgivable sin. It’s a warning not to think after such a fall that the solution now must be to do something to pay for your own sin, but to truly repent and fall back upon the one and only sacrifice that can save you.

                  I could be completely wrong about what he's getting at. 37818 might actually be suggesting an interpretation very similar to what I just described, not a “don’t worry about it” attitude, just a “don’t try to fix it by a sacrifice” attitude. I still think the conditional “if” better reflects the harshness of judgment in verse 27, rather than the thought that all willing sin (and what sin isn’t at least to some degree willing?) subjects you to God’s judgment and puts you outside of his grace at least temporarily. If that were so, then anyone’s salvation could be as tenuous and uncertain, as someone who, at the last moment of life sees a car heading straight at him and thinks, “Oh, _____!!!” He has a willful sinful thought, has no time to repent, and finds himself facing judgment and fire. That could be you.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The text Hebrews 10:. . . 10-39 does not need the "if" in verse 26.

                    Note v.10, 14, 18, 26 what they have in common.
                    Note v.14, 17, 30, 39 what they have in common.

                    Note the arguments v.27-38.

                    The difference between the saved and those who reject the gospel of grace.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      not getting what your point is

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        not getting what your point is
                        37818 seems to be gifted at that.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          not getting what your point is
                          It is not saying those who are saved can become the lost. Noting vs.10, 14, 17, 39.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            It is not saying those who are saved can become the lost. Noting vs.10, 14, 17, 39.
                            What ARE you saying? Nobody knows. You keep skirting around what you want to actually say. Just come out and say it. What is the conclusion that you are trying to get us to come to?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              What ARE you saying? Nobody knows. You keep skirting around what you want to actually say. Just come out and say it. What is the conclusion that you are trying to get us to come to?
                              Again, the context Hebrews 10:10-39 does not teach the saved can be lost. As some have suppose. [Pointing out the alleged "if" in v.26.]
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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