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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Hebrews 10:26 challenge

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  • #16
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Again, the context Hebrews 10:10-39 does not teach the saved can be lost. As some have suppose. [Pointing out the alleged "if" in v.26.]
    So, that's your point? That's where you're trying to go? This is all about OSAS?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      So, that's your point? That's where you're trying to go? This is all about OSAS?
      It is not merely about OSAS. But that Hebrews 10:26 has had the word and concept of "if" add to it. It changes the meaning of that passage. Some who argue against the view point of OSAS cite Hebews 10:26 that it says "if." When it really does not. That rendering goes back to at least the late 4th century interpretation and translation.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Again, the context Hebrews 10:10-39 does not teach the saved can be lost. As some have suppose. [Pointing out the alleged "if" in v.26.]
        I think we all agree that it is not teaching that you can lose your salvation by sinning. It is basically saying if you sin unrepentantly then you probably are not saved in the first place.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Hebrews 10:26,
          . . . εκουσιως γαρ αμαρτανοντων ημων μετα το λαβειν την επιγνωσιν της αληθειας ουκ ετι περι αμαρτιων απολειπεται θυσια. . . .

          Has a long standing traditional understanding being translated,
          . . . For [if] we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

          Here is the challenge:
          . . . For we [do] sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, . . .

          How does that reading change your understanding of that text and its context?

          And not just these:

          . . . we know Him . . . v.30

          . . . we are not of them . . . v.39.

          Its whole context . . . 10-39.
          I don't see how your reading makes sense in the context of the paragraph. It seems that v. 29 is expanding on v. 26; the willful sinner is condemned. Willful sin was judged very harshly in the OT as well.

          Here's an excerpt on the passage from Word Biblical Commentary:
          Source: Wm. Lane, WBC


          The severe warning in vv 26–31 is parallel in form and function to 6:4–8. Like that earlier passage, it exposes the gravity of apostasy ... The process envisioned in 6:4–8 consisted of four stages: (1) the experience of Christian life (6:4–5); (2) the fact of apostasy (6:6); (3) the recognition that renewal is impossible (6:4, 6); and (4) the imposition of the curse sanctions of the covenant (6:8). This same process can be recognized in 10:26–29, arranged in another syntactical order but with a complementary development:

          (1) the experience of Christian life (“after we have received the full knowledge of the truth,” v 26)
          (2) the fact of apostasy (“If we deliberately persist in sin,” v 26, which is defined explicitly in v 29)
          (3) the recognition that renewal is impossible (“there is no longer any sacrifice for sin,” v 26)
          (4) the imposition of the curse sanctions of the covenant (“only an inevitable terrifying expectation of judgment and of raging fire ready to consume God’s adversaries,” v 27)

          © Copyright Original Source

          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
            I don't see how your reading makes sense in the context of the paragraph. It seems that v. 29 is expanding on v. 26; the willful sinner is condemned. Willful sin was judged very harshly in the OT as well.
            <snip>
            But all sin is willful, even if it be the sin of the santified Christians, is it not?
            ". . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. . . ." -- 1 John 1:8 . . . 2:2.

            So how does it not make sense? The argument being that Christ's sacrifice is the only one for sins (Hebrews 10:10, 14, 18, 26).
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              But all sin is willful, even if it be the sin of the santified Christians, is it not?
              No, it is not.
              Source: Num 15, NIV


              Num. 15:27 ** “ ‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.
              Num. 15:30 ** “ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the LORD’S word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”

              © Copyright Original Source

              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                No, it is not.
                Source: Num 15, NIV


                Num. 15:27 ** “ ‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.
                Num. 15:30 ** “ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the LORD’S word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”

                © Copyright Original Source

                An individual defiant- against Christ and the only sacrific there is. For that there is no forgiveness, v.29.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  An individual defiant- against Christ and the only sacrific there is. For that there is no forgiveness, v.29.
                  Is each and every sin committed by any and all Christians always the equivalent of "An individual defiant- against Christ and the only sacrific there is"?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    how do you sin unintentionally? give an example.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                      Is each and every sin committed by any and all Christians always the equivalent of "An individual defiant- against Christ and the only sacrific there is"?
                      [sacrifice]

                      The text [Hebrews 10:. . . 10-39] makes a distiction between the saved and the lost who are not Christians.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        how do you sin unintentionally? give an example.
                        . . .

                        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        But all sin is willful, even if it be the sin of the santified Christians, is it not?
                        ". . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. . . ." -- 1 John 1:8 . . . 2:2.

                        So how does it not make sense? The argument being that Christ's sacrifice is the only one for sins (Hebrews 10:10, 14, 18, 26).
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          . . .
                          I was talking to Kbertsche

                          In the OT they had laws that you could break accidentally. That would be an unintentional "sin" - but it was not what we would call a sin today. It would be more like accidentally breaking the speed limit while driving down the road. You had broken a law but you didn't intend to. We don't have such things today. Any sin would be a willful act. Accidentally doing something would have no intention for wrongdoing and would not be held against you as a sin in the first place. You can't accidentally lie for example. You can say something that is wrong unintentionally but that would not be a "lie" - and if you did lie, it would be willful and deliberate. Same with stealing. You could accidentally take something that wasn't yours (mistaken someon else's luggage at the airport for your own for example) but it wouldn't be "stealing" and therefore not a sin.

                          So I would like Kbertsche to give me an example of how you could accidentally sin today.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                            Is each and every sin committed by any and all Christians always the equivalent of "An individual defiant- against Christ and the only sacrific[e] there is"?
                            Never, in there being no forgiveness in denying Christ as Savior.
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I was talking to Kbertsche

                              In the OT they had laws that you could break accidentally. That would be an unintentional "sin" - but it was not what we would call a sin today. It would be more like accidentally breaking the speed limit while driving down the road. You had broken a law but you didn't intend to. We don't have such things today. Any sin would be a willful act. Accidentally doing something would have no intention for wrongdoing and would not be held against you as a sin in the first place. You can't accidentally lie for example. You can say something that is wrong unintentionally but that would not be a "lie" - and if you did lie, it would be willful and deliberate. Same with stealing. You could accidentally take something that wasn't yours (mistaken someon else's luggage at the airport for your own for example) but it wouldn't be "stealing" and therefore not a sin.

                              So I would like Kbertsche to give me an example of how you could accidentally sin today.
                              I think your definition of sin is much too narrow and restrictive. We can sin "accidentally" today just as they could in the OT.

                              There are a number of Greek and Hebrew words for sin; one of the most common means "to miss the mark", drawing on the image of an archer aiming at a target. This can be done accidentally. We sometimes speak of sins of "omission"; these can be done accidentally.
                              "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                                I think your definition of sin is much too narrow and restrictive. We can sin "accidentally" today just as they could in the OT.

                                There are a number of Greek and Hebrew words for sin; one of the most common means "to miss the mark", drawing on the image of an archer aiming at a target. This can be done accidentally. We sometimes speak of sins of "omission"; these can be done accidentally.
                                some examples, please. A sin of omission usually refers to a deliberate act, like failing to tell someone the truth so that they continue to believe a lie in your favor. If you did it accidentally, like if you didn't KNOW the truth, then you did not sin.

                                Comment

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