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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

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Hebrews 10:26 challenge

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    some examples, please. A sin of omission usually refers to a deliberate act, like failing to tell someone the truth so that they continue to believe a lie in your favor. If you did it accidentally, like if you didn't KNOW the truth, then you did not sin.
    Was there unintentional sin in the OT? Has God's character changed since then? Has the nature of sin changed since then?

    We should be able to think of lots of examples.
    1) if we violate Scripture on a topic, but don't know what scripture says on it, we sin unintentionally. For example, a new believer may not yet know specific moral instruction, so may sin unintentionally. Corinth is a good example; the believers were immature. They were divided and divisive, splitting into parties: "I am of Paul! I am of Apollos!". Some who joined sides probably did not know this was wrong. We often do the same today.
    2) if we do something which has an accidental sinful consequence, we sin accidentally. If I am playing with a gun which goes off and kills someone, I have sinned by taking a life. This is an unintentional sin.
    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
      Was there unintentional sin in the OT? Has God's character changed since then? Has the nature of sin changed since then?

      We should be able to think of lots of examples.
      1) if we violate Scripture on a topic, but don't know what scripture says on it, we sin unintentionally. For example, a new believer may not yet know specific moral instruction, so may sin unintentionally. Corinth is a good example; the believers were immature. They were divided and divisive, splitting into parties: "I am of Paul! I am of Apollos!". Some who joined sides probably did not know this was wrong. We often do the same today.
      2) if we do something which has an accidental sinful consequence, we sin accidentally. If I am playing with a gun which goes off and kills someone, I have sinned by taking a life. This is an unintentional sin.
      #1 isn't a sin if you didn't know about it. How could it be? It isn't actually a sin even if you DID know about it. It is just stupid.
      #2 isn't a sin. It is an accident. A stupid accident that could have been prevented, but not a sin. It is only a sin to intentionally kill someone. sin by it's very definition is rebelling against God. You have to do that willfully.

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      • #33
        If we were to confine ourselves to the usage of "sin" in Hebrews 10, we would be limited to the specific topic of apostasy.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          #1 isn't a sin if you didn't know about it. How could it be? It isn't actually a sin even if you DID know about it. It is just stupid.
          #2 isn't a sin. It is an accident. A stupid accident that could have been prevented, but not a sin. It is only a sin to intentionally kill someone. sin by it's very definition is rebelling against God. You have to do that willfully.
          So what do you think the OT means by "unintentional sin"? Can you give some examples that would qualify?

          You seem to restrict sin only to "rebelling against God". As I said earlier, your definition of sin is too narrow and restrictive. The biblical definition is much broader.
          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            #1 isn't a sin if you didn't know about it. How could it be? It isn't actually a sin even if you DID know about it. It is just stupid.
            #2 isn't a sin. It is an accident. A stupid accident that could have been prevented, but not a sin. It is only a sin to intentionally kill someone. sin by it's very definition is rebelling against God. You have to do that willfully.
            Here is one of the NT words for sin, which specifically means "unknowing sin":
            Source: Luow&Nida


            88.302 ἀγνόημα, τος n: sin which is committed as the result of ignorance — ‘to sin through ignorance, to sin without knowing that one has sinned.’ ὃ προσφέρει ὑπὲρ ἑαυτοῦ καὶ τῶν τοῦ λαοῦ ἀγνοημάτων ‘which he offers (to God) on behalf of himself and for the sin which the people have committed without knowing they were sinning’ He 9:7.

            © Copyright Original Source

            "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
              So what do you think the OT means by "unintentional sin"? Can you give some examples that would qualify?

              You seem to restrict sin only to "rebelling against God". As I said earlier, your definition of sin is too narrow and restrictive. The biblical definition is much broader.
              Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
              Here is one of the NT words for sin, which specifically means "unknowing sin":
              Source: Luow&Nida


              88.302 ἀγνόημα, τος n: sin which is committed as the result of ignorance — ‘to sin through ignorance, to sin without knowing that one has sinned.’ ὃ προσφέρει ὑπὲρ ἑαυτοῦ καὶ τῶν τοῦ λαοῦ ἀγνοημάτων ‘which he offers (to God) on behalf of himself and for the sin which the people have committed without knowing they were sinning’ He 9:7.

              © Copyright Original Source

              You are the one promoting the idea of "unintentional sin" so I am asking YOU to provide examples.

              In the OT it meant breaking one of the Laws unintentionally - perhaps doing something that made you unclean without realizing it - I already said that previously. We are not under the Law.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                ...

                You seem to restrict sin only to "rebelling against God". As I said earlier, your definition of sin is too narrow and restrictive. The biblical definition is much broader.
                Sparko's definition of sin is not too narrow or restrictive with regard to the usage in Hebrews 10.

                The usage of the term in Hebrews 10 is not broader than Sparko's usage of the term.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                  Sparko's definition of sin is not too narrow or restrictive with regard to the usage in Hebrews 10.

                  The usage of the term in Hebrews 10 is not broader than Sparko's usage of the term.
                  Thanks a lot, John -- now there will be no living with Sparko!
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Thanks a lot, John -- now there will be no living with Sparko!

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      Thanks a lot, John -- now there will be no living with Sparko!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John Reece View Post
                        Sparko's definition of sin is not too narrow or restrictive with regard to the usage in Hebrews 10.

                        The usage of the term in Hebrews 10 is not broader than Sparko's usage of the term.
                        I was objecting to the blanket statement in message #20 by 37818 that "all sin is willful". It's clearly not.

                        So now let's get back on topic (Heb 10), if we can.
                        "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                          I was objecting to the blanket statement in message #20 by 37818 that "all sin is willful". It's clearly not.

                          So now let's get back on topic (Heb 10), if we can.
                          The issue still stands that the Greek text for Hebrews 10:26 does not say "if." And the addition/interpretion adding "if" originates with the Latin translation about the late 4th century.

                          The question stands, how does the text differ in meaning without and with the adding of "if." You have seemed to have argued that it would not make sense without reading "if."
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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                          • #43
                            Heb. 10:26: Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας, οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία, 27 φοβερὰ δέ τις ἐκδοχὴ κρίσεως καὶ πυρὸς ζῆλος ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τοὺς ὑπεναντίους.

                            NRSV: Heb. 10:26 For if we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

                            On pages 632-633 of Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace lists the adverb ἑκουσίως as a term used in Hebrews 10 in conjunction with the verbal participle ἁμαρτανόντων as a "clear illustration" of a "condition [if]".

                            The context of the latter portion of Hebrews 10 indicates that the author identifies himself with the Hebrews to whom his teaching is addressed and believes that he and they

                            "... are not among those who shrink back and so are lost, but among those who have faith and so are saved." (Heb. 10:39)
                            Last edited by John Reece; 09-24-2016, 07:29 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              You are the one promoting the idea of "unintentional sin" so I am asking YOU to provide examples.

                              In the OT it meant breaking one of the Laws unintentionally - perhaps doing something that made you unclean without realizing it - I already said that previously. We are not under the Law.
                              I found it interesting upon converting to Orthodoxy that we pray for forgiveness for sins both intentional and unintentional.

                              For example, if I accidentally cut someone off in traffic because I didn't see them, that doesn't mean that I haven't acted improperly against my neighbor.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kbertsche View Post
                                No, it is not.
                                Source: Num 15, NIV


                                Num. 15:27 ** “ ‘But if just one person sins unintentionally, that person must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made, that person will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you.
                                Num. 15:30 ** “ ‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD and must be cut off from the people of Israel. 31 Because they have despised the LORD’S word and broken his commands, they must surely be cut off; their guilt remains on them.’ ”

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Sparko has it I believe. The Numbers verse is clearly referring to sins against the law.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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