The Afterlife

[sylvius]

That's not a refutation. Christians grow old and die and get buried just like everyone else.

So Paul was wrong with:

"All we will not sleep away (die) -- but all we will be changed"?

[Sparko]

So Paul was wrong with:

"All we will not sleep away (die) -- but all we will be changed"?

Our bodies die, our spirits go to be with the lord until the resurrection, then we get our new bodies. Paul was talking about the resurrection, at that time those who are still alive will be transformed and get their new bodies instantly. The rest of the dead rise and are resurrected.

Our spirits do not die. Our current bodies do.

[sylvius]

Our bodies die, our spirits go to be with the lord until the resurrection, then we get our new bodies. Paul was talking about the resurrection, at that time those who are still alive will be transformed and get their new bodies instantly. The rest of the dead rise and are resurrected.

Our spirits do not die. Our current bodies do.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness

[Sparko]

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness

you can quote as many out of context verses as you like but one day you are gonna drop dead just like the rest of us.

[ionerice]

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[sylvius]

you can quote as many out of context verses as you like but one day you are gonna drop dead just like the rest of us.

So Paul's newness of life = afterlife?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Just ducky. I try to share some viewpoints from Judaism and instead we've got another xian thread on the Judaism section.

[סלח לנו]

In the sci-fi Babylon 5, there was a race of shape shifters whose bodies are drawn from a pool.

I have been toying with the idea that there is a vast pool of liquid souls somewhere. In my hypothetical musings, everytime a baby is conceived, the agents of G~d scoops a ladle of soul into the baby. Everytime someone dies, the soul is poured back into the pool and the pool is stirred to remix the liquid thoroughly. I keep wondering why all those religions with grand ideas on reincarnation always considered discrete rather than analogue souls.

Jews and Christians have different views about the human soul. Christian oral traditions mandates the belief of trinitarian constitution of a person - spirit, soul and body. Jews do not have a dichotomy of a person's spirituality into soul and spirit. It is said that on Shabbat, we may receive an additional soul.

There are people who believe that this planet is hell itself. Here our souls are percolated and distilled. The heavier components sink to the bottom. The question in my mind about such a concept is, do the heavier components sink because they are dirt slag or because they are refined gold. Therefore, would the liquid soul being poured back into the pool make the planet more and more evil. Not necessarily so.

My poor understanding of the Qabalah have me believe that it is the misalignment of the components of the Universe within itself that is the cause of evil. As someone very attracted to systemic theology and systemic economics or systemic anything, I am extremely agreeable with the concept of misalignment of frames of references causing problems. It is a mathematically attractive notion. A field/system is not behaving well not because the components are evil but because the components are misaligned with each other and with the vectors of the driving function.

We all probably know that in Hebrew, the primary word used for sin is חטא. The modern dictionary tells us the word means sin and transgression. But our rabbis tell us the word actually means deviation from an intended target. In my mind, it means misalignment, right?

So this planet of a hell hole could well serve as a tuning facility. Therefore, all the souls fed back into the pool would not increase the evil of the planet but merely needs further tuning processing. So what happens to the solid gold? Where do they go? I am still thinking about that. If I knew, I would probably be able take over as the universal quality control manager when Satan retires from his/her job. Though, I am not looking forward to holding such a thankless job.

Could anybody tell me if there is a gematric or qabalistic reasoning behind the existence of the silent alif in the word חֵטְא ? On Yom Kippur, we keep repeating this word (merrily) but then we never pronounced the alif. We do pronounce the alif only when it is merged with the alif of 3rd person singular male suffix. Do you also notice that the modern intransitive usage (piel/pual) without change of spelling means "to disinfect"?

[sylvius]

Could anybody tell me if there is a gematric or qabalistic reasoning behind the existence of the silent alif in the word חֵטְא ? On Yom Kippur, we keep repeating this word (merrily) but then we never pronounced the alif. We do pronounce the alif only when it is merged with the alif of 3rd person singular male suffix. Do you also notice that the modern intransitive usage (piel/pual) without change of spelling means "to disinfect"?

The word for sin [hebrew]X+)[/hebrew], cheit, doesn't differ much from the word for wheat [hebrew]X+H[/hebrew], chittah, which is said to have a deeper meaning.


[hebrew]X+H[/hebrew] in fact is the grain of corn, the seed.

Seed, [hebrew]ZR([/hebrew], zera, can be read as [hebrew]ZH R([/hebrew], zeh ra, = this is evil.

According to Deuteronomy 8:8 wheat is the fruit of the first day, day one, the day on which, according to kabbalists, God did hide the primordial light, so that the wicked (the sinners) could not make use of it.

Which is the great mystery ....

Why?

"God saw the light that it was good"

Good, [hebrew]+WB[/hebrew] , tov, gematria 17.

There is 7 x [hebrew]+WB[/hebrew] in Genesis 1.

The third time in Genesis 1:12, it is the 153rd word from the beginning

153 being triangular 17 (1+2+3+ ... + 15+ 16 +17).

This wouldn't have been the case if the earth had brought forth what was asked of her,. viz.
[hebrew](C pRY ($H pRY[/hebrew] instead of [hebrew](C ($H pRY[/hebrew]. (For then this [hebrew]+WB[/hebrew] would have been the 154th word).

The earth didn't do so because of the curse, it was cursed because of Adam's sin, Genesis 3:17-18. (Rashi)

You just have to put salt on the snail ...

[Salty]

You mean we were dead before in some other age, and we're resurrected again right now?

I don't get it.

Crivens, John, just read Terry Pratchett's book The Wee Free Men, and you'll understand.

Sylvius obviously thinks we're all Nac Mac Feegles: small, blue, tartan-wearing Pictsies who believe they're already dead and this world is heaven, where they can do all the fighting, drinking and stealing they want, and whose swords glow blue in the presence of lawyers.

Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae maister! We willnae be fooled again!

[mitzi]

The afterlife and the soul are intertwined. The Creation of man directly shows that the soul is eternal. G e n 2:7 . And the Lord G-d formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul. When One blows, the breaths comes from within. The logic of this verse is that G-d’s breath is actually part of G-d’s essence. Since G-d’s essence is eternal, it follows that the soul is also eternal.

As far as what the afterlife is exactly, this is a question that can’t be specifically answered. Judaism has some writings about it, but the whole subject is regarded as unknowable. The Tanakh has hardly anything specific to say about it.

After death of the body, the soul goes to Gehenom. Gehenom can be described as a spiritual laundry. For up to 12 months, the soul goes through a purification process. Rabbi Eliyahu Dessler uses an analogy of this process as the soul being shown two videos. Each soul watches the videos with all of that person’s loved ones. The first video could be called “This is Your Life!”. Every decision, thought, and deed is replayed without any edits. It is fully bared for all to see. Think of how embarrassing that is. The second video could be called “This Could Have Been Your Life! – if the right choices were made”. This video, the pain of squandered potential is much more difficult to bear. It purifies the soul. The pain of regret removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

After cleansing, souls go on to Heaven. Heaven is the place of the soul experiencing the maximum possible pleasure which is the feeling of closeness to G-d. Not all souls experience that to the same degree. Like being at a concert, some seats are front-row center whilst others are back in the nose-bleed section. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your deeds.

Hi Tanakh Keeper;

I have a question about the afterlife and also about this information that you posted - I understand what's written but couldn't we (also) say in the same flex that the soul may go through a spiritual purification as did the wanderings of the Israelites or even the Jews who are (in a sense) still wandering until the Messiah returns? There can't be a specific time period designated to when the soul has been purified - also, and even if you don't recognize it, Jesus makes references to the afterlife - and that of the resurrection. The afterlife is one that is talked about but what about the resurrection - Behold I send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day. (Malachi 3:23) (Haftora for Shabbos HaGadol(http://torah.org/learning/dvartorah/....html))Unetane Tokef. There are two instances in the Exodus that can be referenced:

http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbiw...lechlecha.html
The idea of wandering has been represented in terms of punishment for the sins of Israel; in terms of spreading Godliness and Torah ideas through out the world; and in terms of collecting spiritual souls that are scattered throughout the world and allowing them to become part of the eternal people of Israel. Other philosophical answers have also been advanced throughout the ages of Jewish scholarship. I am fascinated however by an insight mentioned by the great men of Mussar based upon the words of Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman in his commentary to the beginning of the book of Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]. Their view is that the torah comes to teach us that all mankind, each and every one of us, is a wanderer. When Adam and Chava sin they are sent wandering from the paradise of Eden.

[mitzi]

Book of fate:

"The Lord will never forgive him [one who secretly worships other deities]; rather will the Lord's anger and passion rage against that man, till every sanction recorded in this book comes down upon him, and the Lord blots out his name from under heaven." (Deuteronomy 29:19).
"I looked up again and I saw a flying scroll. 'What do you see, he asked?' And I replied, 'A flying scroll, twenty cubits long and ten cubits wide.' 'That,' he explained to me, 'is the curse which goes out over the whole land. For everyone who has stolen, as is forbidden on one side of it, has gone unpunished; and everyone who has sworn falsely, as is forbidden on the other side of it, has gone unpunished." (Zechariah 5:3)
"The Lord has heard and noted it, and a Scroll of Remembrance has been written at His behest concerning those who revere the Lord and esteem his name." (Malachi 3:16)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetanneh_Tokef

Again, there is such a difference when discussing the afterlife. Are there souls serving punishment in the afterlife? Explain then Rosh Hashanah - and the day of judgment?

[Tanakh Keeper]

Hi Tanakh Keeper;

I have a question about the afterlife and also about this information that you posted - I understand what's written but couldn't we (also) say in the same flex that the soul may go through a spiritual purification as did the wanderings of the Israelites or even the Jews who are (in a sense) still wandering until the Messiah returns? There can't be a specific time period designated to when the soul has been purified - also, and even if you don't recognize it, Jesus makes references to the afterlife - and that of the resurrection. The afterlife is one that is talked about but what about the resurrection - Behold I send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day. (Malachi 3:23)
The idea of wandering has been represented in terms of punishment for the sins of Israel; in terms of spreading Godliness and Torah ideas through out the world; and in terms of collecting spiritual souls that are scattered throughout the world and allowing them to become part of the eternal people of Israel. Other philosophical answers have also been advanced throughout the ages of Jewish scholarship. I am fascinated however by an insight mentioned by the great men of Mussar based upon the words of Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman in his commentary to the beginning of the book of Bere[color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color][color=red]EDITME[/color]. Their view is that the torah comes to teach us that all mankind, each and every one of us, is a wanderer. When Adam and Chava sin they are sent wandering from the paradise of Eden.

You sure took a long time to come up with a question Mitzi. The last post in this thread was four years ago.

Anyone can draw any comparisons that they want to make. Personally, I don’t see any relationship to our people’s historical wandering and the afterlife. But as you have a Christian base, you automatically make everything about your deity. Lots of people talk about the afterlife, Muhammed mentions it, Joseph Smith mentions it, so no big deal that your god references it.

The article that you quote never references your guy or the afterlife at all. As I believe in the Tanakh, I’d say our wandering is mentioned multiple times in the Tanakh. So it is a fulfillment of Torah that we are wanderers. The Tanakh also mentions when our wandering will be over. It will occur during the future Messianic Age. One of the criteria to recognize that Age is the ingathering of all the Jewish exiles. So the future Messiah will be recognized as being the political leader when the ingathering finally occurs.

[mitzi]

You sure took a long time to come up with a question Mitzi. The last post in this thread was four years ago.

Anyone can draw any comparisons that they want to make. Personally, I don’t see any relationship to our people’s historical wandering and the afterlife. But as you have a Christian base, you automatically make everything about your deity. Lots of people talk about the afterlife, Muhammed mentions it, Joseph Smith mentions it, so no big deal that your god references it.

The article that you quote never references your guy or the afterlife at all. As I believe in the Tanakh, I’d say our wandering is mentioned multiple times in the Tanakh. So it is a fulfillment of Torah that we are wanderers. The Tanakh also mentions when our wandering will be over. It will occur during the future Messianic Age. One of the criteria to recognize that Age is the ingathering of all the Jewish exiles. So the future Messiah will be recognized as being the political leader when the ingathering finally occurs.

Hi Tanakh Keeper;

Not really - I've come across this information from time to time. There really isn't a lot of information on the afterlife in the Tanakh, Dan. 12:2, Neh. 9:5. However, Belief in resurrection of the dead is one of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith - I've read Resurrection and the afterlife are not two separate concepts but one, however - where does the soul return to prior to the Messianic Age, see below info: (confused on this, Tanakh?)

The resurrection of the dead will occur in the messianic age, a time referred to in Hebrew as the Olam Ha-Ba, the World to Come, but that term is also used to refer to the spiritual afterlife. When the messiah comes to initiate the perfect world of peace and prosperity, the righteous dead will be brought back to life and given the opportunity to experience the perfected world that their righteousness helped to create. The wicked dead will not be resurrected.

Also, and not directed to you personally - the Sadducees had rejected the concept whereas, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, so wouldn't the rising of Christ concluded this?