Questions on Patron/Client relationships

[Adrift]

Here's an example from a massive area of culture that I'm quite familiar with: music.

Ever since I started getting into music, I was always attracted by its ability to hit me with such emotional force. I don't think it would be an exaggeration for me to say that I treated it (unknowingly) as some sort of drug. I would listen to music with the intent of deeply experiencing emotion - I would listen to it in order to cry (yah I know, emo lolol111). Among my friends and among that sort of indie culture it is common to praise music for how emotionally raw and impacting it is. Frankly, the emotional intensity of a piece is considered its chief quality. You can also see this in the music itself, which is increasingly becoming more intense and emotionally unrestrained. I don't think it's any coincidence that vocal styles that are akin to screaming have become so popular. Here's an example of a band that is intentionally emotional:



I don't post the above as some sort of joke, or as an example of something I find horrible. I immensely enjoy the song. I've been immersed in this emotional-high view of art through most of the last 7 years. I only realised relatively recently that this view of music and art is a particularly modern Western view. Right now I don't really know what to do with my music taste. Not sure if it's healthy for me or not.

But anyway, there you go. An example.

Maybe it can go the other way too.

1 Samuel 16:23

And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.

[nightbringer]

Maybe it can go the other way too.

1 Samuel 16:23

And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.

Not sure what you mean!

[Adrift]

Not sure what you mean!

I'm sorry, I wasn't really replying to your point about emotionalism. I just wanted to point out that, for your own benefit, you don't have to rid your life of an appreciation for music, and that as an alternative to negative emotionalism, music can also lead to feelings of tranquility, hope, and joy.

[nightbringer]

I'm sorry, I wasn't really replying to your point about emotionalism. I just wanted to point out that, for your own benefit, you don't have to rid your life of an appreciation for music, and that as an alternative to negative emotionalism, music can also lead to feelings of tranquility, hope, and joy.

Sure, yeah I don't think I have to give up music. I just have a lot of questions that aren't answered. I wonder what the basis of my love for music really is, and what music that I currently like is actually good for me. Things are just a bit confusing at the moment.

[Adrift]

Sure, yeah I don't think I have to give up music. I just have a lot of questions that aren't answered. I wonder what the basis of my love for music really is, and what music that I currently like is actually good for me. Things are just a bit confusing at the moment.

That's understandable, and I think I can relate seeing as I've been associated with a number of underground music cultures that tend to sometimes take themselves to seriously.

[Thersites]

Seen films, heard "personal testimonies". That's sufficient data.

And before you ask, I have read romance novels...I had to review them for collection development in the prisons. There's no worse punishment for a male inmate than to be restricted to reading those.

how very scientific

You have on one hand a phase that is outgrown in short order and soft-core pornography on the other. When it comes right down to it, I see no reason to see these as solely the product of modern society.

I have final exams coming up. I may or may not have a coherent and complete argument to make here after it's all wrapped up after next Thursday.

[jpholding]

how very scientific

Yes, observation is very much a part of the scientific process.

You have on one hand a phase that is outgrown in short order and soft-core pornography on the other. When it comes right down to it, I see no reason to see these as solely the product of modern society.

Your eagerness to seem clever is keeping you from thinking critically. I did not see THE product. It is A product, although specific manifestations (eg, Bieber) are "THE" products. As for "short order/soft-core" -- yes, and such may move on to other sources later; however, pointing out that it can be outgrown does not negate the presence of the phenomenon. Nor does that the latter is or may be soft-core porn. What poor mental training makes you think these points are of any relevance?

I have final exams coming up. I may or may not have a coherent and complete argument to make here after it's all wrapped up after next Thursday.

Based on the foregoing I rate the chances of a coherent argument from you to be about 1 in 30.

[Mountain Man]

JP's comment about behavior during concerts reminded me of a video I saw some time back of one of the all-time greatest rock bands performing a show in Tokyo, Japan:



Pay attention around the 1:30 mark for a couple of shots of the audience and notice how reserved they are. You can see some teenagers, sitting down and politely clapping. During a kickin' rock concert. Compare that to any concert footage you've seen of American audiences.

Here's the same group performing in Houston. Again, pay attention to the audience (you can see them wildly jump to their feet behind the stage in the first shot):



If that doesn't illustrate cultural differences then nothing will.

I have no comment about about Steve Perry's yellow leopard print shirt.

[Thersites]

Yes, observation is very much a part of the scientific process.

You have sophisticated sociological analysis of ancient cultures, but your understanding of contemporary society sounds less like a sociologist than an old fogy pining for the "good old days" and complaining about the newfangled habits of today's kids. These things have existed in some form or other for a very long time; this doesn't mean that they're good, it means that they're common.

Your eagerness to seem clever is keeping you from thinking critically. I did not see THE product. It is A product, although specific manifestations (eg, Bieber) are "THE" products. As for "short order/soft-core" -- yes, and such may move on to other sources later; however, pointing out that it can be outgrown does not negate the presence of the phenomenon. Nor does that the latter is or may be soft-core porn. What poor mental training makes you think these points are of any relevance?

My point is that these phenomena are by no means unique to this culture or period of time.

Based on the foregoing I rate the chances of a coherent argument from you to be about 1 in 30.

I'll take that bet. Who do you think ought to judge the coherency of my argumentation?

[jpholding]

You have sophisticated sociological analysis of ancient cultures, but your understanding of contemporary society sounds less like a sociologist than an old fogy pining for the "good old days" and complaining about the newfangled habits of today's kids.

Which of course, makes it in error, and which, by so commenting, you make in error. This is why your analysis stinks and you need help. As it happens, though, the fogies are just presenting popular versions of what the sociologists already know.

These things have existed in some form or other for a very long time; this doesn't mean that they're good, it means that they're common.

Whatever that was supposed to argue for. I never said they did not exist or were uncommon.

Do yourself a favor...you want help? Read some serious scholarly books. Don't go traipsing around the Shoutbox begging for help from average people.

My point is that these phenomena are by no means unique to this culture or period of time.

Allow me to erect a 900 foot sign in bright yellow letters with blinking lights that sayeth:

SO WHAT?

I'll take that bet. Who do you think ought to judge the coherency of my argumentation?

A squad of rhesus monkeys. It's bound to be an improvement.

[Andius]

Speaking of a emotionally addicted society. I would have to say Elvis or the Beatles are long precursors of the sort of thing Biever Fever is doing these days. 0.o In their concerts back in the 50's and 60's, they would set entire concerts in crazed screaming frenzies. 0.o

[Carrikature]

As a wild and unsophisticated stab at trying to get at the point of emotion, I think it may serve to generate certain perceptions. Most basically (talking in a very reductionist manner), emotion allows us to perceive things as good or bad. When a positive affective disposition attends the experience of an event, that event is perceived as good. So understood, emotional perceptions can be talked about as perceptions that are either veridical or not. If some event genuinely is good, then a positive affective experience is appropriate while processing it. The reason why an emotionally dead person can't care is because they can't experience anything as good or bad. They might mentally assent to some proposition such as "human life is good", but they do not actually perceive the world with that sort of value-tinted lens. It would be like someone seeing a sunsent, and assenting to the proposition "sunsets are beautiful", but having no actual perception of its beauty. These persons can say, do, and perhapss believe all the right things, but fail to be impacted by reality in the appropriate way.

This actually sounds a lot like how I experience the world, especially what I bolded.

[Chaotic Void]

Do yourself a favor...you want help? Read some serious scholarly books. Don't go traipsing around the Shoutbox begging for help from average people.
.

So you saw that discussion I had with him in the Shoutbox the other day?

[Thersites]

So you saw that discussion I had with him in the Shoutbox the other day?

Earlier today, I was asking LS for input. I find that, from time to time, it's helpful to get a fresh perspective on an issue, particularly when a debate gets heated. I asked LostSheep, a friend, someone I trust, to critique the way I'd been arguing my position. I did this because it seemed increasingly evident to me that I had yet to adequately communicate my central point... that, or JP & co have just been ignoring it repeatedly, which I suppose is a distinct possibility. I was wondering whether he thought I'd been expressing my argument clearly. I suppose that's more or less what I was asking you, but JP is definitely mis-characterizing what was going on.

[nightbringer]

This actually sounds a lot like how I experience the world, especially what I bolded.

That's a pretty honest thing to say. Would you say I'm along the right lines then? What's your take on the matter?