Questions on Patron/Client relationships

[Rational Gaze]

One point I find interesting is how Spartacus brags about his own accomplishments in philosophical learning... but then totally forgoes proper philosophical discourse.

[Raphael]

The in group was far more important to them then it is to us. How well do you know your neighbors? Do you live with your grandparents? In an ancient society, they knew their neighbors quite well and they lived sometimes in homes that contained several generations within. Sad to say, I sure know I don't know my neighbors as well as they did and I doubt most people today do.

Indeed, the place we live now, where we've lived for over a year, I've said hi to the one neighbour once. And emailed the other once (but the email was about a law I disagree with and she was a Member of Parliament at the time....and wasn't actually my neighbour yet). Ok, so I live on a large rural property, making it a little harder. When we lived in town I chatted a bit to my one neighbour, used to wave each day to another, and called the cops repeatedly on the third.
I never actually got to know them well.

[Thersites]

And your evidence for this assertion is?

Meanwhile: http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?..._ylo=&as_vis=1

<Sarcasm>

Your argument is Google? That's almost as bad as Wikipedia!

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

How about a specific, in-context quote from a primary source?

So far, you have done nothing but provide assertions and then ignored all the evidence. You also like to play a little game whereby you ask for evidence, and it is provided, but then wait until sometime afterwards before asking for evidence again, even though it was just given a few pages ago.

You haven't interacted with the source material. You've thrown search results and bibliographies at me, but you don't really delve into the texts. I've referenced Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Machiavelli, and Chesterton, among others, and not just to bold out choice words (as if there can be no such thing as equivocation). You've ignored all of these references and returned time and again to self-indulgent mockery.

[Andius]

One point I find interesting is how Spartacus brags about his own accomplishments in philosophical learning... but then totally forgoes proper philosophical discourse.

And it is precisely that reason why I believe he is either a liar, or effectively sleeping through his classes.

[Andius]

<Sarcasm>

Your argument is Google? That's almost as bad as Wikipedia!

This is a fair warning to those sarcastically impaired the preceding text was written in jest.

How about a specific, in-context quote from a primary source?



You haven't interacted with the source material. You've thrown search results and bibliographies at me, but you don't really delve into the texts. I've referenced Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Machiavelli, and Chesterton, among others, and not just to bold out choice words (as if there can be no such thing as equivocation). You've ignored all of these references and returned time and again to self-indulgent mockery.

And why should Rational Gaze do so should when others have effectively cited a good number of said philosophers?

[Rational Gaze]

I've referenced Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Machiavelli,

No, you've provided your interpretation of them. If simply appealing to primary sources was enough, all I'd have to do is open my Bible and start quoting.

and Chesterton, among others, and not just to bold out choice words

Who isn't an expert on socio-cultural history or anthropology.

[Rational Gaze]

You haven't interacted with the source material. You've thrown search results and bibliographies at me, but you don't really delve into the texts.

Education isn't being handed answers on a plate. Rather, it is being pointed in the right direction so you can find the answers for yourself.

[lilpixieofterror]

Indeed, the place we live now, where we've lived for over a year, I've said hi to the one neighbour once. And emailed the other once (but the email was about a law I disagree with and she was a Member of Parliament at the time....and wasn't actually my neighbour yet). Ok, so I live on a large rural property, making it a little harder. When we lived in town I chatted a bit to my one neighbour, used to wave each day to another, and called the cops repeatedly on the third.
I never actually got to know them well.

I find that is mostly because of the attitude of 'mind your own business'. I've tried talking with my neighbors, but they seem more in a hurry to get out the door or inside then they are to chat. Guess that's the price for the consistent 'lets go' society we are part of.

[Thersites]

You want to know why? Because a person only valued the opinion of the people in his in-group. A noble doesn't care for the thoughts of a woman or a peasant, but he does care for the thoughts of fellow nobles. This is an ELEMENTARY point in the field of Mediterranean sociology which just goes to show that you've done NO adequate research.

History of the Peloponnesian War, 2.37 (where I pointed you not long ago). In his funeral oration, Pericles discusses the unique aspects of the Athenian system:

"When it is a question of settling private disputes, everyone is equal before the law; when it is a question of putting one person before another in positions of public responsibility, what counts is not the membership in a particular class, but the ability which the man possesses. No one, so long as he has it in him to be of service to the state, is kept in political obscurity because of poverty."

Friend, you just argued that democratic Athens was run by a class of nobles.

[Thersites]

No, you've provided your interpretation of them. If simply appealing to primary sources was enough, all I'd have to do is open my Bible and start quoting.

You already have done that- or, rather, Chrawnus did.

And what is there besides my interpretation, yours, or that of a particular scholar (which may or may not include scholars who have been my teachers)? The fact remains that you have not engaged these references.

Who isn't an expert on socio-cultural history or anthropology.

Even so, you never responded to what I said about him. Was he wrong about the spirituality of St. Francis when he called it more of a love affair than a religion? If not, was St. Francis' spirituality itself wrong?

[lilpixieofterror]

Even so, you never responded to what I said about him. Was he wrong about the spirituality of St. Francis when he called it more of a love affair than a religion? If not, was St. Francis' spirituality itself wrong?

As I recall, isn't St Francis the one that decided to live in poverty and forsaked wordly goods for living among nature?

[Thersites]

As I recall, isn't St Francis the one that decided to live in poverty and forsaked wordly goods for living among nature?

Yup. "Brother sun and sister moon" and all that, but it didn't stop him from being a major voice in reforming the Church.

[Rational Gaze]

The fact remains that you have not engaged these references.

Others already have.

[ThePuppyTurtle]

The church's of the East are rather more honor/shame based then the church that is down the road from you and the traditions of the western church's do have honor/shame bases. It is actually more of a modern notion of things like a 'personal relationship' and stuff like that. Perhaps you don't spend the time to study other theologies beyond your own? Try reading Augustine's Confessions sometime. You'll see that he had quite a bit of shame for his life before he became a Christian.

The Eastern Orthodox Believe in Christus Victor, so no, they do not agree with you.

[fm93]

How is the acceptance of Christus Victor at all relevant to her points about the honor-shame paradigm? A theory of atonement has nothing to do with whether a sociological understanding is correct. I assume you're alluding to the honor-shame interpretation of penal substitution, but even then they're not mutually exclusive. In fact, all proponents of penal substitution believe the Christus Victor theory is correct--it's just that there's more to the atonement than just that.