Have anti-Prop 8 activists hurt the gay cause?

[Sheepdog]

I believe it was Time magazine that raised this question lately.

To be frank, the fifth column of the gay community (and in fairness they certainly are a minority) certainly have hurt their cause, in general. But, I'd like to see what others think.

[themuzicman]

I think so. They're painting the movement as an extreme left-wing wacko youth protesters, which the movement seems to be, but gays at large are not.

Michael

[EvoUK]

I think that they have done themselves a disservice. Personally, I think gay marriage is a non-issue, but I think that they are their own worst enemy. They stand and chant in crowds, stamp on an old ladies cross, or claim that they are no longer full citizens so won’t pay their taxes (I seem to remember a lesbian claiming that one recently), but who are they trying to convince?

Sure, anger has it’s place- people tend to have to get angry to feel the need to do something about perceived injustice (look at how angry and emotional anti-abortion people on here get), but if they’re trying to win over the marriage is between a man and a woman or the no Adam and Steve crowd, then they’ve failed.

[Philosophickle]

claim that they are no longer full citizens so won’t pay their taxes (I seem to remember a lesbian claiming that one recently), but who are they trying to convince?

Melissa Etheridge.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I believe it was Time magazine that raised this question lately.

To be frank, the fifth column of the gay community (and in fairness they certainly are a minority) certainly have hurt their cause, in general. But, I'd like to see what others think.

To me it is very interesting that so many who claim to be Christian seem committed to live under the law of Moses. Even the words recorded in the Epistles reflect the same attempts to apply standards inherited from the old testament as if those who sought to spread the gospel were laden by their own upbringing instead of focusing on the love of God and others.

As for me I will try my best to follow what Jesus told us we should attempt to accomplish. The alternative has always appeared to me to be the very path to destruction we reap when we condemn others, elevate self and buy into those negative thoughts of others that wound our own hearts and do nothing for those who are different than us in their own conduct of life. It is a very tough standard and I frequently fail. I can not truthfully say I love others as myself but I can at least strive to accomplish it.

So if people want to live by the old law of Moses I guess there will be consequences. Christians will be treated as haters and adversaries. Such a shame. Just my opinion.

[Xavier]

[...] But, I'd like to see what others think.

I think at present you are simply seeing a somewhat startled over-reaction to their recent defeat on Prop 8. I don't think they really thought there was quite that much ground left to cover. The other thing to think of is simply that the media is capitalizing a bit on the issue. I don't imagine that protests of these kind are entirely out of the ordinary (similar to the constant pro-life picketing of abortion clinics).

[Manwë Súlimo]

To me it is very interesting that so many who claim to be Christian seem committed to live under the law of Moses. Even the words recorded in the Epistles reflect the same attempts to apply standards inherited from the old testament as if those who sought to spread the gospel were laden by their own upbringing instead of focusing on the love of God and others.

As for me I will try my best to follow what Jesus told us we should attempt to accomplish. The alternative has always appeared to me to be the very path to destruction we reap when we condemn others, elevate self and buy into those negative thoughts of others that wound our own hearts and do nothing for those who are different than us in their own conduct of life. It is a very tough standard and I frequently fail. I can not truthfully say I love others as myself but I can at least strive to accomplish it.

So if people want to live by the old law of Moses I guess there will be consequences. Christians will be treated as haters and adversaries. Such a shame. Just my opinion.

Apparently you missed the parts in the New Testament where it said homosexuals won't inherit the Kingdom of God.

And if people want to misconstrue "disapproval" as "hate", that's their own problem and their own ignorance. Not Christians.

[Jaltus]

I think at present you are simply seeing a somewhat startled over-reaction to their recent defeat on Prop 8. I don't think they really thought there was quite that much ground left to cover. The other thing to think of is simply that the media is capitalizing a bit on the issue. I don't imagine that protests of these kind are entirely out of the ordinary (similar to the constant pro-life picketing of abortion clinics).

The storming the church one is not part of the ordinary.

[Chocobear]

I think they have. The gay activist movement in general has preached about love, tolerance, open-mindedness and acceptance. But what these protestors are doing is spitting on that message. How tolerant is it to snatch a cross from an old lady and stop on it? How loving is it to knock people down and beat them up, just because they don't agree with your position? If I were a member of the gay activist movement, I would be deeply embarrassed by what these people are doing.

And Eeset, if you truly believe that homosexuality is okay with God, read 1 Corinthians 6.

[Xavier]

The storming the church one is not part of the ordinary.

Didn't really 'get' that one... Only read about it here on TWeb the other day.

[Sheepdog]

I added a line to my signature. Because of the MI church incident, I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in being tolerant to gays, anymore.

that's the irony here. these activists are actually risking a backlash, basically destroying the "tolerance" they seek from the rest of us.

[Xavier]

I added a line to my signature. Because of the MI church incident, I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in being tolerant to gays, anymore.

that's the irony here. these activists are actually risking a backlash, basically destroying the "tolerance" they seek from the rest of us.

This seems a bit off-point. Can we not point out the extremists and label them as such?

Not meaning to carry forward this analogy any further, but isn't this a bit like saying there's "no point in being tolerant to" black civil rights activists because of the actions of the Black Panthers. Or perhaps, no point in being tolerant to Irish nationalists because of the actions of the IRA.

[Tercel]

I think people often tend to put groups of people in boxes. eg "Gays think X", "Christians are campaigning for Y". When, in reality, there are a whole spectrum of people in every group. Some of them are extremists, some are conservative and there's every shade in between. Gays range from Christian girls who respect conservative values and want a committed lifelong marriage who just happen to be attracted to girls not guys, through to guys who have a different partner every night have aids and hate Christians. Equally we can group people as "conservatives" or "liberals" and be prone to see their behavior as inconsistent - we say "gosh, that group finally got the law they wanted, and now they are pushing for even more", when really what happened was that the group was never as united as we perceived them to be and some people wanted the one law and others wanted more extreme measures.

Some Christians picket abortion clinics, some condemn gays, some hate gays. Others simply pray and don't create headlines. Some gays protest at church services, some condemn Christians. Others simply get on with their lives. I think it's kidding yourself to imagine there's anything approaching unified goals and methods among gays, Christians, liberals, conservatives or any other large group.

Activists for minority groups who have felt themselves oppressed have done many worse things in history to protest their situation than any actions taken by any gay group to date. So I second Xavier... nothing seems particularly new about any of this. Radical activists always look like idiots and do idiotic things (and probably are idiots)... life goes on for the rest of us.

Because of the MI church incident, I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in being tolerant to gays, anymore.

It seems to me to be pretty illogical to take the actions of a tiny group of idiots as having any sort of bearing on millions of others.

It is entirely possible that those particular people who are intolerant are not the same as those preaching tolerance. They could be different people are you would be mistakenly conflating the two groups together and seeing inconsistency where none exists.

That said, I don't think there's any inconsistency at all in being intolerant in promoting tolerance - here's why: Imagine the term used was "freedom" instead of "tolerance". The 'preachers of tolerance' are generally saying that individual freedoms are important. They want to make sure that freedom is protected by law and believe that freedoms and human rights are important goals. It is reasonable to want to take action to protect freedom against those who would threaten it. Interpreted in a certain way, taking action to protect and enhance those freedoms is "intolerant". So the freedom fighters are "intolerant" by their nature, and the freedoms they are fighting for are "tolerance" by their nature... it is easy to see why a rational person who was concerned about people and wanted to see their freedoms and rights respected would act like this.

if people want to misconstrue "disapproval" as "hate", that's their own problem and their own ignorance. Not Christians.

I think its pretty indisputable that some people really do hate gays. Some of those people are Christians. Some use their religious texts to assist their hatred. Generally it is people who feel strongly about something that are the most vocal. So it is not surprising if gays hear shouted hatred from Christians quoting religious texts about the whispered "we love you as people but disapprove" of the majority and so get the wrong impression. If gays then see Christians en masse taking political action to take away from them what they see as being basic human rights such as marriage then what are they going to think? They are hardly going to conclude that Christians are full of love for them, are they? They might come to the wrong conclusion, but it's easy to see why they as rational people might arrive at that conclusion.

if you truly believe that homosexuality is okay with God, read 1 Corinthians 6.

I have read a lot about this passage of scripture and the greek words involved in the original. The key words in ancient greek are very difficult ones to translate and to know what Paul meant by them. Some translators have translated it as "homosexuality" and others have not. There is no good evidence for translating it "homosexuality" and that is an extremely speculative translation at best - speculation that appears to me in my analysis of the evidence to be a mistake. In my somewhat-expert opinion the best common English translation of the word is probably "rape", as the word seems to refer to a very specific kind of rape that was used to assert dominance over others.

[John Goddard]

There is no good evidence for translating it "homosexuality" and that is an extremely speculative translation at best - speculation that appears to me in my analysis of the evidence to be a mistake. In my somewhat-expert opinion the best common English translation of the word is probably "rape", as the word seems to refer to a very specific kind of rape that was used to assert dominance over others.

It's not only about rape. Arseno/man + koites/sex is straightforward. Coitus is the action of a man "entering" into regular intercourse between male and female, an adjective modifies it to something else. Add "arseno" and you have man "entering" into another man.

This is why Leviticus also says "man lying with a man as with a woman" since regular coitus involves a female partner.

[Pilgrim]

Melissa Etheridge.

Don't get me started on her. Never has such an average performer cashed in so fully on her politics and illness. If she didn't have those other aspects her music career would have tanked long ago.