Abraham was a religious fanatic

[סלח לנו]

Abraham was a religious fanatic and Sarah oft the victim of his fanaticism.

Without wisdom of any great theologian or sage, a reader of the Biblical accounts would clearly see Itshaq depicted as the traumatised son of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah even named him "I shall laugh". In modern Hebrew, a comedy. I am trying to imagine the trauma and depression that plagued Itshaq's entire life as the Bible depicted.

Abraham's political insight and penchant for fanaticism did not allow him to reconsider the negative effects his self-superior attitude had on his "confessedly-beloved" son. Not only on his son, but on his generations-and-generations that came after him. The very dome-on-the-rock and the messianic religions that persecuted Jews can be pin-pointed to Abraham's misbehaviours as the inspiration, if not the cause.

Of course, the religions that resulted from his misbehaviours characterised him as the man of great faith. But many Jews see their Patriarch as a sorry case of blind-faith. Often acting spuriously with the presumptious blind faith that divine intervention would always be there to rescue him. He squandered every miracle bestowed on him. The divine Provider tested Abraham one final time and confirmed there was no redemption for his weakness. Abraham failed the test by passing it. At which point, divine intervention again came to the rescue, but which was too late. The intervention might have saved Itshaq from Abraham's fanaticism but could not redeem Itshak from a devastated state of mind.

Further divine provision ensured that Abraham fathered no further and put a safety margin between Abraham and Yakov.

Yakov was quite the opposite. Imagine a woman faced with two suitors. The first was a man of integrity who wooed and courted her with superior devotion. The second was a man of questionable means - but he lied and cheated and struggled all he could just to be with her. Whom would she choose? Imagine G~d being that woman. Yakov was passionate about a birthright that was beyond him, even at the moment that he was born. If as a woman, whom would G~d grab and hug in passionate embrace and say "please be the father of my children"?

Abraham's attempt at crucifying his own son spawned versions of religions that rested on human sacrifice and shedding of blood as the means of salvation to humankind. Religions that persecuted and murdered Jews throughout the last two thousand years.

There is only one means of salvation of the human race - the observance of Shabbat. Abraham subterfuged that divine plan with his own plan and anx.

So it came upon Shmuel that the people demanded for "a king just like the other peoples". At which point, divine provision again had to make a fork. Divine Provision, through Shmuel, warned of disasters, persecution, enslavement, wars, conscription, and all the negative whatnots that would come with having a king. But the people of Israel persisted in their clamour for a king. Hence, the birth of the concept of a messiah.

Deut 5:32-33: You will observe deeds ... as instructed. You shall not deviate/approach to the right and/or left. ... you shall walk so that you may live ... and prolong your days in the land which you shall have dominion.

The messiah is the sign post that sits at that forbidden fork.

I'm trying to parse the meaning of the word "mashiach" or in my personal latinisation configuration "mashiax" (מָשִׁיחַ). "mashax" (מָשַׁח) means "to rub oil on", a practice not uncommon among the pagans of that region. It was as though G~d was saying, "You want to have a king like the other peoples - here why not have the whole lock, stock and kabootle. Have an annointed one as well". Just like the rest of the nations and their male prostitutes.

Every time a "messiah" appears, Jews get divided, persecuted and massacred.

There is only one means of salvation of the human race - the observance of Shabbat. The "messiah" does not provide salvation. The "messiah" is a supporting actor. Using Christian terminology, the "messiah" concept has been but a "Judas Iscariot" to the ultimate plan of G~d. The "messiah" figure has been a destabilising figure that portends the coming of the ultimate Sabbatical order of the human race and the dominion of the human race in the Universe. I don't know much about the messiah and I don't wish to know but history has shown how devastating the messianic concept has been on Jews.

It is sad that today, many Jews focus on the concept of the "messiah" rather than on planning how to execute the observance of Shabbat to its completion. Making the Shabbat the supporting actress. The concept of the "messiah" has so far been successful in dividing Jews and have been an effective weapon used by adversaries against Jews.

It does not hurt the salvation of Jews one single bit by ignoring the messiah but focus on the Shabbat. If you are judged and G~d asked , "Why were you not paying attention to the messiah?" and you answered, "because we were too focused on the Shabbat." G~d would be so elated and hug and embrace you as passionately as he embraced Yakov.

[sylvius]

Abraham was a religious fanatic and Sarah oft the victim of his fanaticism.

.

Abraham is first of all a literary figure --

about an historical Abraham we do not know nothing.

Abraham was first called Abram and then Abraham -- with an extra letter heh in his name.

Which seemingly alludes to the 474th word of the Torah ...

As Abraham he fathered Isaac.

Cynics said that such was impossible; that Isaac for sure was fathered by Avimelech

But then it turned out that Isaac and Abraham looked exactly the same.

See:
http://koltorah.org/volume%2014/9%20Toldot.htm


Two fanatics?

Isaac went willingly to mount Moriah to be slaughtered by his father.

Which had to do with circumcision.

Ismael was humiliating Isaac all the time:

"I was circumcised at the age of thirteen years -- in full consciousness -- and you only at the age of eight days, unconscious"

Then Isaac said : You were ready to offer just your foreskin; but I am ready to offer my whole life for the sake of Hashem " -- like his father ...

[sylvius]

There is only one means of salvation of the human race - the observance of Shabbat.

Observance of Shabbat -- by whom?

All of the Jewish people?

Or some?

How many?

Not-Jews are even not allowed to observe the Shabbat.

[Salty]

Not-Jews are even not allowed to observe the Shabbat.

Yes, we are. In fact, Rashi says we are required to. Just not in the same manner as Jews.

[barnasha]

Yes, we are. In fact, Rashi says we are required to. Just not in the same manner as Jews.

Matt 12:1-8
1 At that time Jesus went on the Sabbath through the grainfields, and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of grain and eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Behold, your disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath."
3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did, when he became hungry, he and his companions;
4 how he entered the house of God, and they ate the consecrated bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests alone?
5 "Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple break the Sabbath, and are innocent?
6 "But I say to you, that something greater than the temple is here.
7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I desire compassion, and not a sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

[Salty]

barnasha, forgive me for being obtuse, but what's the relevance of your verse to the discussion? What value is anything from the Christian Testament in the Judaism forum?

[learning]

Who is Rashi? And this is not a Judaism only forum only. Christians and Messianic Christians are allowed to discuss if they wish, unless the one who starts the thread or opening post specifically states they wish to limit it.

[sylvius]

Yes, we are. In fact, Rashi says we are required to. Just not in the same manner as Jews.

Where does Rashi say so?

[Salty]

Where does Rashi say so?

"Rashi says that every Ger Toshav (a non-Jew living in Eretz Yisrael in the time of the Jewish Temple, who has formally accepted the obligation to observe the Noahide laws in front of a Jewish court) has to uphold and keep the Sabbath (Rashi, Kritot 9, Yevamot 40). There is room to suggest that the Noahides, even nowadays, by accepting to fulfill the seven commandments, are in the same category as a Ger Toshav and should, according to Rashi, be required or at least allowed to keep the Shabbat." (From http://www.wikinoah.org/index.php/Op...s_for_non-Jews)

I've also seen a reference to Yevamot 48b, in which Rashi says that Gentiles who have accepted the Noahide Covenant and renounced idolatry should definitely keep Shabbat, because desecrating the Seventh Day is itself idolatrous.

[Salty]

Who is Rashi?

Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, Jewish sage who lived 1040-1105 CE.

And this is not a Judaism only forum only. Christians and Messianic Christians are allowed to discuss if they wish, unless the one who starts the thread or opening post specifically states they wish to limit it.

And you did not ever see me say non-Jews can't post here. I just questioned the value of posting a Christian text to people to whom it has no authority or relevance.

[סלח לנו]

Prov 6:6
Go to the ant, slothful person. See her ways, that you be wise, where she has no captain, supervisor or ruler. She prepares in the summer her bread and at harvest stores her food.

Those who try to obtain salvation through a messiah are the slothful persons.

G~d intended and continues to intend Israel to be an Anarchy. Note that monarchists and republicanists have successfully indoctrinated us to spontaneously associate anarchy with chaos and disorder. Since the word anarchy have such an historical conotation, I shall use the communications engineering term popularised by IBM "peer-to-peer" as opposed to "master-slave" cooperation. Anarchy means orderly and efficient government without the cost of a central leader. The English derivative of the Greek is An (No), Arch (Head).

The Lubavitch and Christian emphasis on the necessity of a messiah for salvation violates the recommendation in 1 Sam 8 against having a king. As Jews we accept the eventuality of an "annointed one", but we must be oblivious to the appearance of the messiah. We cannot allow the messiah to take over our minds and destroy our relationship with each other and with G~d. If I were a rav, I would issue a fatwa that decrees it a mitsvah to ignore the messiah.

Someone may have a better understanding about the Lubavitch should please tell me I am wrong about their ill-focus on the messiah. Sometimes I wonder (struggle may be a better word) hard to find the difference between Schneersonism and Jews for Jesus.

To hope that someone else would come to solve the problems of the world rather than solving them ourselves is a slothful person.

Observance of the Shabbat is the only way to solve the problems of the world. Jews need to focus on the Shabbat not on the messiah. I would say "To h#ll with the messiah."

Anyway, I keep repeating this concept but I have never bothered to explain why and how observance of Shabbat could solve the problems of the world. I am attracted to concepts of systemic realism, reason, science and biological Evolution - how then could I believe in an esoteric myth of the Shabbat capable of solving the problems of the world?

[karen22]

Prov 6:6
Go to the ant, slothful person. See her ways, that you be wise, where she has no captain, supervisor or ruler. She prepares in the summer her bread and at harvest stores her food.

Those who try to obtain salvation through a messiah are the slothful persons.

G~d intended and continues to intend Israel to be an Anarchy. Note that monarchists and republicanists have successfully indoctrinated us to spontaneously associate anarchy with chaos and disorder. Since the word anarchy have such an historical conotation, I shall use the communications engineering term popularised by IBM "peer-to-peer" as opposed to "master-slave" cooperation. Anarchy means orderly and efficient government without the cost of a central leader. The English derivative of the Greek is An (No), Arch (Head).

The Lubavitch and Christian emphasis on the necessity of a messiah for salvation violates the recommendation in 1 Sam 8 against having a king. As Jews we accept the eventuality of an "annointed one", but we must be oblivious to the appearance of the messiah. We cannot allow the messiah to take over our minds and destroy our relationship with each other and with G~d. If I were a rav, I would issue a fatwa that decrees it a mitsvah to ignore the messiah.

Someone may have a better understanding about the Lubavitch should please tell me I am wrong about their ill-focus on the messiah. Sometimes I wonder (struggle may be a better word) hard to find the difference between Schneersonism and Jews for Jesus.

To hope that someone else would come to solve the problems of the world rather than solving them ourselves is a slothful person.

Observance of the Shabbat is the only way to solve the problems of the world. Jews need to focus on the Shabbat not on the messiah. I would say "To h#ll with the messiah."

Anyway, I keep repeating this concept but I have never bothered to explain why and how observance of Shabbat could solve the problems of the world. I am attracted to concepts of systemic realism, reason, science and biological Evolution - how then could I believe in an esoteric myth of the Shabbat capable of solving the problems of the world?

Since I am clueless as to what Shabbat is and how it is observed and how this "saves"...can you please explain this to me? Thank you.

[barnasha]

barnasha, forgive me for being obtuse, but what's the relevance of your verse to the discussion? What value is anything from the Christian Testament in the Judaism forum?

The "Christian testament" - meaning a compilation of books focusing on the teachings of a certain famous Jewish rabbi?

Try and define, with utmost precision, the term "Judaism" - if it raises questions then my suggestion has done its job.

[John Goddard]

The "Christian testament" - meaning a compilation of books focusing on the teachings of a certain famous Jewish rabbi?

Try and define, with utmost precision, the term "Judaism" - if it raises questions then my suggestion has done its job.

Pretty much anything goes but Jesus: atheism, polytheism with Lubavitch...

An anti-antimissionary presence is good to maintain here, regardless.

[סלח לנו]

I wish to apologise for the delay on putting down my thots on observing the Shabat and its implications on the salvation of humankind. It is quite a thesis. I have not quite completed writing it. It will take me a few posts over a week. Though I do have a blog post summarising it - http://salaxk-lanu.blogspot.com/2008...uman-race.html.

First, I need to qualify why I refuse to spell out the term and name for Elohim in English in full but either use a hyphen or a twiddle, http://salaxk-lanu.blogspot.com/2008...-names-of.html Anyone who wish to debate this should do so in another thread.


Gen 1:1
בראשית ברא אלֹהים
In the beginning Elohim created
ואת הארץ את השּמים
Heaven and Earth

Gen 1:2
והארץ היתה תֹהו ובהו
And the Earth was chaos and empty
וחשׁך על פּני תהום
and darkness over the surface of the abyss
ורוח אלֹהים
And the Spirit of Elohim
מרחפת על פּני המים
hovered over the surface of the Water

Gen 1:26
ויאמר אלֹהים
And said Elohim
נעשה אדם
man is made
man is being made
בצלמנו כדמותנו
in our image with our characteristics

Gen 1:28
פרו ורבו ומלאו את הארץ
be fruitful and increase and fill the Earth
וכבשה
and conquer/preserve her.

Gen 2:2
ויכל אלהים
And accomplished Elohim
And accomplishing is Elohim
ביום השביעי
on the seventh day
מלאכתו אשר עשה
his handwork which he made
his handwork which he is making
וישבת ביום השביעי
he rested on the seventh day
and he will rest on the seventh day
מכל מלאכתו אשר עשה
from all the handwork that he made
from all the handwork that he is making

I don't think I have a great understanding of Biblical Hebrew because it does not have tenses the way English and modern Hebrew has. I did my best. I dislike the idea that Bible translation should modify/reduce/expand meanings of original words to fit into a comprehensive context. A phrase may seem incomprehensible to our current level of technological civilisation, so context is as variable as the skin on your razor phone or Real player.

The question we often ask is
What is the purpose of human life?

The inheritors of Abraham's/Moses' ideology would also ask
Why in the image and characteristics of Elohim?

Many people of expressive religious nature would respond
"Why? To serve and worship their Creator, of course!"

Servitude may be alluded to in various portions of the Bible. However, servitude to the task of realigning fellow-humans to their original purpose. Not eternal servitude.

What then, is that original purpose of the human race? Which is obviously laid out in the first chapter of Genesis. The Great Commission of Humankind has never changed and cannot be changed by any messiah. The Great Commision is not servitude, but to
be fruitful, increase, fill the Earth and conquer and preserve the Earth.

Any messiah who comes to terminate and conclude the Great Commission of Humankind is not sent by G~d, nor is to help the human race achieve salvation. Any messiah who comes to end the sexual reproductivity of humankind is not a friend or ally of G~d.

Translators are so engrossed in being slaves and worshippers of G~d but they forgot that כבש (CVSh) has the meaning of dominate=conquer & preserve. People preaching against gays and abortion but who, in the interests of preserving focus on spreading religious fervour, deny that human activity is destroying the planet is cherry-picking which Biblical obligation they wish to fulfill.

What is the motivation of the Creator for instituting such a Great Commission?