The Myth of finding Muhammad in the Bible (Deut. 18:15-18)

[mudcake]

Dan Zebiri - You just wish, muddy-headed mudcake...!

..lol... your false assertion and bogus argument has been dismantled over and over and you still just don't get it .lol... thank-you for the entertainment.

The quranic verse in sura 5/116 declares clearly that the 'three gods worshipped by Christians' are : 'Jesus + Mary + Allah'

What does the Quran proclaim:

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."

Nothing about christian trinitarianism/trinity doctrine there danny

Your initial false and bogus assertion is that the Quranic verses above were attempting to articulate the doctrine of the trinity according to Trinitarian christian beliefs, which i demonstrated to be utterly false by exposing your gross and erroneous Trinitarian Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among, is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own dubious ideas, reading into the text) a common tactic carried out by trinitarians against both the Quran and the biblical scriptures to falsely substantiate erroneous Trinitarian non biblical 'monotheism' and assertions.

I succinctly expounded and exposed the fallacy of your false and miscontrud presumptions already, but you choose to repeat fallacies and won't accept you have been exposed as a fraud:

Yes, the Quran simply identifies three distinct and personal gods/deities that are worshipped and supplicated to by some sects of Christianity/Christian faith; however where is it proclaimed that the Quran mentions or is attempting to articulate the ‘trinity’ and/or is referring to the doctrine of the 'trinity' as postulated by Christian Trinitarian Christology?

LOl....Yes, the CONCEPT AND IDEA of THREE Gods is there, However, the Quran is not attempting to articulate the doctrine of the trinirty as you false assert.Where is the Quran proclaiming or even mentions or is referring or attempting to articulate the ‘trinity’ and/or is referring to the doctrine of the 'trinity' as postulated by Trinitarian Christology? You miscontrue the exegesis of the Quranic text by reading into these verse to falsely assert the Quran is attempting to articulate the doctrine of the trinity, which in fact it is not. It is simply identifying three deities that are worshipped and supplicated to by some Christians ( perhaps - 'Collyridians' or other).

I can only reiterate and repeat what you have failed to counter address:

In the verses where the Quran specifically stipulates ‘THREE’, (not ‘TRINITY’) the text IS NOT referring to or identifying "Mary, Jesus and the Father" or even the spirit that comprise a ‘THREE’ or a ‘TRINITY’ anyway...lol

These verses are not proclaiming “Muhammd thought that the Trinity was: Mary, Jesus and God the Father” as you and your ignorant friend JC falsely and blindly assert. Your falsely reading into the Quranic text to substantiate an erroneous presumption.

Thats good enough for us, that this is a complete misrepresentation AND misinterpretation of what the real Christians adhered to authentically.

lol... If thats good enough for you to sleep at night.Good for you danny...lol..., BUT you will get dismantled silly in a debate on this specific topic using your dubious and false Quranic Eisegesis, just like your getting punished here. You have completely misrepresented AND misinterpreted the Quranic texts to false assert verses 5/116 are restrictively addressing or attempting to articulate christian trinitarianism, Which is false! It is simply identifying three distinct deities that were/are worshipped and supplicated to by some Christians that are not necessarily trinitarians danny..lol....

It did not have to mention 'trinity' at all - 'Three' /thalatath' is more than sufficient..!

Again, the Quranic verses are simple proclaiming that God Almighty is not ‘THREE’ (cardinal number) according to ANY of the multiple, false, conflicting and diverse Christian conceptualizations and articulations of the ‘oneness’ of God Almighty – whether its trinitarianism, modalism arianism,etc. In direct refutation of the falsehood of the multiple/conflicting articulations and conceptualizations of the tri- ‘onenesses’ (monotheisms) of God according to multiple/conflicting Christian christologies, the Quran proclaims that HE alone – Allah HIMSELF - is the one true personal God that represents true monotheism. . Its really that simple...lol...


Try again danny..not even 'Obscuring Islam' can help you to directly counter refute our responses here. It good enough for us to transparently witness you have only succeeded to demonstrate your miscontrued Quranic Eisegesis and false assertions..... and by the way my students are loving every minute reading your hilarious and bogus 'counter' replies.... keep it up danny..... through your ignorance, our students are learning how to counter refute your false assertion for future references and debates regarding this specific topic here...lol... Thank-you kindly,

Muddy....

[John Goddard]

You just wish, muddy-headed mudcake...!

The quranic verse in sura 5/116 declares clearly that the 'three gods worshipped by Christians' are : 'Jesus + Mary + Allah'

Thats good enough for us, that this is a complete misrepresentation AND misinterpretation of what the real Christians adhered to authentically.

It did not have to mention 'trinity' at all - 'Three' /thalatath' is more than sufficient..!

Dan.

It refers to some Catholics and New Age Mary worship, not all Trinitarians. And is entirely accurate.

Quran 5:116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?...

The encyclical argues that as Christ, because he redeemed humankind, is its Lord and king by a special title, so the Blessed Virgin Mary is Queen, on account of the unique manner in which she assisted in the redemption of humanity by giving of her own substance, by freely offering him by her singular desire and petition for, and active interest in, human salvation.

wiki

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Do you know the specific passage in the Quran that I'm talking about? Also, do you know of any historians that know of Jews worshiping anyone else alongside God?

Sorry for the late response. Yes, I know the specific passage you are talking about. It is Surah 9:30

As for historians, how about Gordon D Newby? He writes in his book, 'A Concise Encyclopedia of Islam', that some Jews in pre-Islamic Arabia equated Ezra with Enoch and said that he was assumed into heaven where he was transformed into Metatron. According to some cosmologies, Metatron was the head of the heavenly creatures known as the sons of God.

[JCourage]

I would be more persuaded if it had addressed Deut. 34:10.

Can anyone see God - face-to-face? Who appeared to Moses? Who was Jacob wrestling with?

[JCourage]

Gee, and just a bit ago you were trying to persuade us that Muhammad's Christian wives taught Him everything He knows.

Throwing everything you can in hopes that something will stick, I see.

Do you deny the youthful travels of Muhammad, who had no Father, or family? Where was he born? Did he spend more time growing up in Trans-Jordan or Syria?

So, back to our topic, Isaac was the BRETHREN and Muhammad was no part of the Abrahamic blessing or the Mosiac prophesy was he?

[barnasha]

Do you deny the youthful travels of Muhammad, who had no Father, or family? Where was he born? Did he spend more time growing up in Trans-Jordan or Syria?

So, back to our topic, Isaac was the BRETHREN and Muhammad was no part of the Abrahamic blessing or the Mosiac prophesy was he?

Are you decieved enough to consider yourself the arbiter of who may or may not partake of the faith of Abraham?

Stop playing God and get holy.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

What the hell is JCourage rambling about?

[Ibn Abu Talib]

Isaac was the BRETHREN and Muhammad was no part of the Abrahamic blessing or the Mosiac prophesy was he?

He was. I am yet to see you refuting my arguments.

[barnasha]

7:172 AND WHENEVER thy Sustainer brings forth their offspring from the loins of the children of Adam, He [thus] calls upon them to bear witness about themselves: "Am I not your Sustainer?" - to which they answer: "Yea, indeed, we do bear witness thereto!" [139] [Of this We remind you,] lest you say on the Day of Resurrection, "Verily, we were unaware of this";
7:173 or lest you say, "Verily, it was but our forefathers who, in times gone by, began to ascribe divinity to other beings beside God; and we were but their late offspring: wilt Thou, then, destroy us for the doings of those inventors of falsehoods?"
7:174 And thus clearly do We spell out these messages; and [We do it] so that they [who have sinned] might return [unto Us].
7:175 And tell them what happens to him [140] to whom We vouchsafe Our messages and who then discards them: Satan catches up with him, and he strays, like so many others, into grievous error. [141]
7:176 Now had We so willed, We could indeed have exalted him by means of those [messages]: but he always clung to the earth and followed but his own desires. Thus, his parable is that of an [excited] dog: if thou approach him threateningly, he will pant with his tongue lolling; and. if thou leave him alone, he will pant with his tongue lolling. [142] Such is the parable of those who are bent on giving the lie to Our messages. Tell [them], then, this story, so that they might take thought.
7:177 Evil is the example of people who are bent on giving the lie to Our messages: for it is against their own selves that they are sinning.
7:178 He whom God guides, he alone is truly guided; whereas those whom He lets go astray-it is they, they who are the losers!

[JCourage]

He was. I am yet to see you refuting my arguments.

You have an Argument?

Genesis 25:27-34

God hated Esau and his offspring - Muhammad - the curse has never ended.

The hatred and animosities of Ishmael and Esau toward the Jews was instilled in their descendants. There has been a continuous, perpetual hatred of the descendants of Esau and Ishmael against the Jews characterized especially by the Ishmaelites, descendants of Ishmael and the Edomites, descendants of Esau. An example which shows how early the descendants had this animosity is found in Numbers 20:14-21:

And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us: how our fathers went down into Egypt, and we dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians dealt ill with us, and our fathers: and when we cried unto Jehovah, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border. Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy land: we will not pass through field or through vineyard, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: we will go along the king's highway; we will not turn aside to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy border. And Edom said unto him, Thou shalt not pass through me, lest I come out with the sword against thee. And the children of Israel said unto him, We will go up by the highway; and if we drink of thy water, I and my cattle, then will I give the price thereof: let me only, without doing anything else, pass through on my feet. And he said, Thou shalt not pass through. And Edom came out against him with much people, and with a strong hand. Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border: wherefore Israel turned away from him.

In the book of Judges we often read of Ishmaelites, Edomites, and other descendants of Ishmael and Esau inflicting damage upon Israel. In Psalm 83:1-8, the psalmist describes the situation in the Middle East in this time, as well as prophetically. He describes a united conspiracy and confederacy whose aim is to destroy the nation of Israel. It is no accident that various modern Arab leaders (Egypt's Nassar, for example, just before the Six Day War) have virtually paraphrased these verses. In verses 6-8 the psalmist lists these various nations that come together against Israel. While these are all various ancient names, today they comprise the modern Arab states. For instance, in verse 6, Edom was in southern Jordan; Ishmael was the father of the Ishmaelites, one segment of the Arab world; Moab was in central Jordan; the Hagarenes were from Egypt. In verse 7, Gebal was up in Lebanon; Ammon was northern Jordan; Amalek was in the Sinai Peninsula; Philistia was in the Gaza Strip; Tyre was up in Lebanon. In verse 8, Assyria comprises all of what is today Iraq and quite a bit of Syria.

Read it again: Psalm 83:1-8

There are other passages in the Bible which describe this perpetual hatred of the Arab nations against Israel, such as Ezekiel 35:1-5 and Obadiah 10-14.

Now, in summary:

"I have loved you," says the LORD. "But you ask, 'How have you loved us?' "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals." Deuteronomy 21:15-17 [Muhammad is from Esau and the cursed Ishmaelites]

[barnasha]

have you always hated Ishmael this much, or were you taught to act this way?

[Jesus Maranatha]

I would be more persuaded if it had addressed Deut. 34:10.

Moses is a prophet , and God will send other prophets like him , in the sense that , they will convey His instructions , his words to Israel , ( that's what all prophets do ) . Just read the context ...God starts by saying he will raise priests among their brethren ...He then tells them , that He will send them others , like Moses , who will likewise convey his words and instructions . They are to lesson and obey , such prophets .


I used the analogy of a "road service" ( like AAA ) . I might be infront of a crowd of prospective customers , and tell them " ...after I receive your call , I will send you a tow-truck , and in some cases I can also send you a mechanic ...."

Home hospice care :

...." I will send you a nurse , everyday................. "

I might have many mechanics or nurses working for me , nonetheless , I don't have to say " I will send you mechanics " .." ...nurses " ...

God was simply letting the Israelites know that others would come , conveying His guidance and instructions to Israel , like Moses ..Whether these prophets are all of the same rank before God , and posess the same abilities ( have the same anointing ) , is not relevant to the fact that God will send Israel , prophets , who like Moses , will convey God's word to Israel .

However , although the grammar and context of Deut 18 , seems to say this , some Rabbis did see the Messiah here . The midrash , the aggadah , tends to ignore the context and grammar , and draw out deeper meaning ..So , I am open to the possibility that there is a deeper meaning here , however the explicit meaning strongly suggest that God was just telling Israel he would send other prophets to Israel , after Moses .

[John Goddard]

You have an Argument?

Genesis 25:27-34

God hated Esau and his offspring - Muhammad - the curse has never ended.

No you are mixed up.

Ishmael represents all the Gentiles grafted in to Abraham along with Jews represented by Isaac, so that the two brothers are reconciled to Abraham through Jesus in the New Covenant.

Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

[barnasha]

God hated . .. . . . the curse has never ended.

Unfortunately for his soul, the hate is JCourage's alone.
Hate is like a fire, it consumes the one who hates.

[Ibn Abu Talib]

God hated Esau and his offspring - Muhammad - the curse has never ended.

You idiot. Muhammad(saw) was not an offspring of Esau.