The Myth of finding Muhammad in the Bible (Deut. 18:15-18)

[mudcake]

Dan Zebiri - The Quran had already CLEARLY demonstrated its error and mistake of attacking 'Christians' / follower of Jesus Christ as - WORSHIPPERS OF 'Three gods'.

lol.....Repeating a refuted argument will not make it true danny.There is not error in the Quran as I have clearly illustrated. The only errors that exists are the ones demonstrated in your false assertions and preverted Eisegesis of the Quranic text. Some sects of Christianity DO WORSHIP and supplicate to the Father, Mary and Jesus danny. The Quran is addressing those polytheist christians that do worship and supplicate to Mary, along with the father and Jesus.

The Quran would be in error if there were no christians whatsoever that supplicated and worshipped Mary, along with the Father and Jesus and assuming this false act of worship never arises right up until the day of Judgement.. The fact is some Christians DO worship and supplicate to Mary, along with the father and Jesus and will continue to do so until the day of judgement danny. So where is the Quranic error polytheist?

It further identifies these '3 gods' as :

Jesus + His Mother (Mary) AND + Allah.

This much is indisputable fromn sura 5/116 (I am refering ONLY to this verse)

Again, Thats exactly right danny. The Quran correctly identifies Mary as a deity/god recognised by some christians that worship and supplicate to Mary, along with the father and Jesus. This is transparently indisputable!

The quran / Muhamad never understood the 'trinity' even in the orthodox Christian theological sense.

You have not present one single evidence to substantiate Muhammad (p) misrepresented the orthodox Christian theological doctrine of the trinity anywhere. All you have presented is false assertions and presumptions:

Again, yes, the Quran simply identifies three distinct and personal gods/deities that are worshipped and supplicated to by some sects of Christianity/Christian faith; HOWEVER, where is it proclaimed in verse 5/116 that the Quran mentions or is attempting to articulate/conceptualize or represent the doctrine of the ‘trinity’ as postulated by Trinitarian Christology? You miscontrue the exegesis of the Quranic text by - Eisegesis - reading into these verse to falsely assert the Quran is attempting to articulate the doctrine of the trinity, according to trinitarian christology/theology, which in fact it is not.

It is simply identifying 'deities' 'Mary' and 'Jesus' that are worshipped and supplicated to along with God Almighty by some sects of Christianity! No utilization of the term 'THREE' or 'TRINITY' in verse 5/116 in reference to the doctrine of the trinity, according to trinitarian christology danny..lol...

So, it goes on to make the false accusation that we have '3 gods' and it is again doubly mistaken to point out that as 'Jesus + Mary + Allah'!

Its you who make false and erroneous accusations and presumptions as clearly demonstrated on this thread danny, not the Quran!. For some Christians these Quranic allegations are TRUTH! Some Christians worship and suplicate to deities, Mary, along with the father and Jesus, according to their theological beliefs. There is no mistake there danny. Your the mistake danny, not the Quran buddy..lol....

This does go to show and prove that Muhamad never understood the real Christian teachings, in the FIRST PLACE.

As transparently demonstrated here, this does go to show and prove that danny never understood the real Quranic teachings, in the FIRST PLACE..lol.....

So, that being the case, we have danny as an example that represents many other trinitarian Christian polytheists that miscontrue the Quranic texts to postulate false assertions to refute a strawman and mirage argument..lol.. Typical Trinitarian Eisegesis (from the Greek root εις, meaning into, in, among) is the process of misinterpreting a text in such a way that it introduces one's own false ideas, reading into the text)


These typical Christian misunderstandings, misinterpretations AND misrepresentations (caricatures) of true Quranic teaching is found scattered all over the place on this forum as exemplified in dannys perverted posts and threads:

This does go to show and prove that Muhamad never understood the real Christian teachings, in the FIRST PLACE.

As stated before, the Bible does not articulate the false postulation or conceptualization of the nature of trinitarian 'oneness' or 'monotheism' of God Almighty anyway...lol....

In the other verses where the Quran specifically stipulates ‘THREE’, (not ‘TRINITY’) the text IS NOT referring to or identifying "Mary, Jesus and the Father" or even the spirit that comprise a ‘THREE’ or a ‘TRINITY’ anyway...lol

These verses are not proclaiming “Muhammd thought that the Trinity was: Mary, Jesus and God the Father” as you falsely and blindly assert. Your falsely reading into the Quranic text to substantiate an erroneous mirage presumption. Your reading something into these texts thats just not there buddy..lol..try again....

Again, the Quranic verses are simple proclaiming that God Almighty is not ‘THREE’ in any theological conceptualization,according to ANY of the multiple, false, conflicting and diverse Christian 'TRI oneness 'conceptualizations and articulations of the ‘oneness’ of God Almighty – whether its trinitarianism, modalism arianism,Tritheism,etc.


In direct refutation of the falsehood of the multiple/conflicting articulations and conceptualizations of the nature of THREE and/or in- ‘onenesses’ (monotheisms) of God, according to multiple/conflicting Christian christologies, the Quran proclaims that HE alone – Allah HIMSELF - is the one true personal God that represents true monotheism. Its really that simple...lol...

When measuring the trinitarian articulation, nature and concept of the tri-'oneness' of God Almighty against the biblical scriptures and exegesis, it becomes transparent you are a polytheist that worships three distinct personal gods that share the same essence of divinity danny.

When the Quran proclaims the truth that God Almighty is not 'THREE', or a 'TRINITY' its proclaiming that the nature of God Almighty's 'oneness' or 'monotheism' is not THREE in any theological sense/nature, according to trinitarianism, modalism arianism,Tritheism,etc..

Diverse sects of christianity are god worshipping polytheists, just in different ways and degrees, according to their diverse theological christologies and beliefs. Your Trinitarian polytheism is just one many polytheistic conceptualizations that speculate about the nature of God Akmightys oneness thast has no biblical support for the false postulation that God Almighty exists as three distinct 'persons' that share the same essence of divinity and comprise/ collectivelly form one personal divine being.


Biblical monotheism is in direct conradiction to the erroneous concept of trinitarian 'monotheism'/ 'oneness'....
.

muddy....

[fiddlin-john]

I have still yet to read a single reason how Muhammad fulfills the Deut. prophesy?

[smaneck]

I have still yet to read a single reason how Muhammad fulfills the Deut. prophesy?

The same way Jesus fulfills it.

[fiddlin-john]

The same way Jesus fulfills it.

Not even close to good enough. Your logic would work the same for any of the prophets, even David himself. Remove Jesus from your equation. Tell me how Mohamed fulfills that prophesy.

[smaneck]

Remove Jesus from your equation. Tell me how Mohamed fulfills that prophesy.

Nope. Don't like double standards.

[Dan Zebiri]

John,

Smaneck cannot show how Muhammad could ever fulfil that prophecy in Deut 18...!

SImply, because - and most historically itself...ALL OF Christ own followers and disciples already claimed and declared this prophecy to refer to Jesus Christ - AND TO NO BODY ELSE!

This is all already clearly recorded in Acts.

NONE of the disciples and Apostles of Jesus Christ, ever told their fellow Christians that this prophecy of Deut.18 'was a multiple - fulfilling prophecy'!

We only get that in islamophiles, muslims and proto-muslims like Smaneck.

To Peter, James, John Stephen and ALL who stand in the Apostolic
tradition of Jesus Christ, this Deuteronomic prediction was conclusively and totally fulfilled in Jesus Christ ALONE, and so it NEVER needed another 'prophet' to arise to fulfill it!

Having already been completely fulfilled in Jesus, Deut.18 : 18 etc, is no longer 'available' for fulfilment 'by anybody else'!!

Muhammad needed to claim (or his followers had to claim for him) this prophecy - to enhance his credibility and acceptance problems' with the Jews and Christians of his day. THATS why Muslims must make such claims, too.

Dan.

[fiddlin-john]

Nope. Don't like double standards.

Fair enough, tell me how both Jesus and Mohamed exclusively fulfill this prophecy. Exclusive, meaning only the two of them and no one else. I am beginning to sense your argument has clay feet.

[smaneck]

Fair enough, tell me how both Jesus and Mohamed exclusively fulfill this prophecy. Exclusive, meaning only the two of them and no one else. I am beginning to sense your argument has clay feet.

Obviously if I think they both fulfilled it, they didn't do so exclusively.

[fiddlin-john]

Obviously if I think they both fulfilled it, they didn't do so exclusively.

Smaneck, I guess this is an attractive aspect of your belief system. No proof necessary, if it sounds good, it probably is. But for the life of me I just can't see your argument clearly for the smokescreen of bad logic...

[fiddlin-john]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter
And those religion-of-peace, cuddly, loving Muslims are still out to get the Baha'i

[John Goddard]

Fair enough, tell me how both Jesus and Mohamed exclusively fulfill this prophecy. Exclusive, meaning only the two of them and no one else. I am beginning to sense your argument has clay feet.

Not even close to good enough. Your logic would work the same for any of the prophets, even David himself. Remove Jesus from your equation. Tell me how Mohamed fulfills that prophesy.

Speaking of Clay, I think it's accurate to say this:

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Gentiles are Iron, Jews are Clay. As in the feet of the statue of Daniel. Then the Rod of Iron is divided in a replay of this:

Zechariah 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Leaving mainstream Christianity and Islam as foolish shepherds over the flock. So they have a lot of power from Jesus until the appointed time, Romans 11:25.

But they are both influenced a lot by Satan too.

Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

[Dan Zebiri]

Well, the Bahai are a deviationist cult ('bida'a') according to orthodox islam, and so, they deserve to be exterminated / destroyed / rid off for spreading 'mischief on the earth' according to the Quran!

Dan.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter
And those religion-of-peace, cuddly, loving Muslims are still out to get the Baha'i

[fiddlin-john]

Well, the Bahai are a deviationist cult ('bida'a') according to orthodox islam, and so, they deserve to be exterminated / destroyed / rid off for spreading 'mischief on the earth' according to the Quran!

Dan.

Well, it's good to know that I have that in common with the Smaneck. Allah's followers want to kill us both!

I have read back through this thread hoping to glean some information, some "knowledge" as they say. There's just not much to the argument that M'med fulfills anything in the Bible. but I can definitely see how I would believe that were I a Muslim. It is interesting also to realize that our "Bible" is tainted with Zionism and heretical teachings, and is not a true text from God. But, if it serves the purpose of proving me right, well then, so be it!

[Dan Zebiri]

Zionism and zionists who use the Biblical texts to prop up their flawed and misguided misinterpretations would most certainly be untrue and false,indeed.

But I think that the Bible as a text has much more historical, archaelogical, linguistic and documentary manuscript etc evidences that corroborate for its essential factual authenticity; compared with the Quran, Hadith and other religious texts.

Well, it's good to know that I have that in common with the Smaneck. Allah's followers want to kill us both!

I have read back through this thread hoping to glean some information, some "knowledge" as they say. There's just not much to the argument that M'med fulfills anything in the Bible. but I can definitely see how I would believe that were I a Muslim. It is interesting also to realize that our "Bible" is tainted with Zionism and heretical teachings, and is not a true text from God. But, if it serves the purpose of proving me right, well then, so be it!

[smaneck]

Too bad, John, that interpretation of yours of the Trinity from the sura you picked will get you laughed off by muslims -as a gross misinterpretation..!!

I've never heard any Muslim suggest that Mary was one of the Person's of the Trinity. It's your interpretation of this Sura which they would laugh off.