The Myth of finding Muhammad in the Bible (Deut. 18:15-18)

[beanfarmer]

if Islamic law means being in fulfillment of divine command, and closeness with God, then I would never like freedom from it, no.

But what if it is wrong? I proved part of it wrong in my first post when I proved Muhammad was not in the Bible and I have more proof if you want it.

If you mean Islamic legal systems (specific interpretation of God's law by specific governments), there are plenty of people who need freedom from that.

Like the coptic christians in Egypt or christians in Iraq who have been driven close to extinction?

You would be most effective if instead of blaming Islamic law as a theory, by blaming the implementations of it that do not comply with the teachings of Muhammad and his companions. And to be most effective in this regard, you should start learning Arabic culture and history, so you can know what is wrong about what they do and gain support of the oppressed so as to change it.

There is a problem here, 10 life times would not be enough to rule out all the religions of the world to go to the depth you want me to go to, so you rule out the ones with the more blatent errors and the least archaeology or more unexplainable contradictions and the little I have studied Islam I have found it rife with errors.

Who did you learn the teachings of Muhammad from? Those who live decent and humble lives or those who appear on CNN as warriors of the oppressed countries, whose geopolitical hardships and the horrendous results thereof are glossed over and turned into strawmen and attack fodder for different religio-political groups seeking to gain from it?

I get what I know about Islam from Muslims like you that I met on line and from my own research which I do at Islamic sites and Christian sites and from ex-Muslims.

Using the perversion of religion as a weapon to further another by discrediting it is the result of the metaphoric Tower of Babel, which exists once humankind is divided and is unable to communicate with each other. And it is a kind of hypocrisy, by putting down others you hope to feel more righteous. Jesus never centered his teachings around how wrong the other Hebrews were, he set a good example and taught from his heart instead.

When have I used "the perversion of religion as a weapon to further another by discrediting"? Your accusations are without merit with out examples. The fact you think Jesus was not critictal of others sins shows either how little you know about the Bible or your Islamic bias where you ignore specific verses because they don't agree with Islam or your view. Like Mt 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. I have much more if you want them.

Once we let worldly differences divide us, we can either dig deeper in them and stay divided, or move away from the worldly and cultural - and closer to the heavenly, and thus closer to God. Let's do the latter!

I agree but if we both do it you will need to stop picking only the verses that agree with Islam and deal with the ones that don't. Otherwize it will not balance if I am the only one willing to look at all the verses.

I am with anyone who is for the peace and justice of everyone regardless of worldly culture or religion. I am with anyone and who does not use the evil of one man to condemn 10 other peaceful men in the name of "holiness".

I agree.

Blessed are the persecuted for theirs is the kingdom of God

AMEN

[Dan Zebiri]

Barnasha, there was no mistranslation in the verses that I listed proving that MONGENES shows that Jesus Christ is THE One and ONLY Son of God, Who uniquely, alone knows God.

Unlike, all those other 'sons by the tons' that Deedat loves to spout about.

Do address my reply to you pls:

When have christians ever 'set Christhood on a pedestel...' ! What crappy non-sense barnasha!

When has anyone OTHER THAN CHRIST HIMSELF, claimed that unique supremacy for Himself?

You NEVER answered the posts where I showed you all the clear verses that explicitly declared Jesus own words making claims to divinity and deity.

Anyway, that Jesus ALONE is the UNIQUE Son of God - over and above all the others, is found in another Gospel passage :

25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.


28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Matthew 11 : 25-29

Verse 27 makes it indisputable..: That Only Jesus Christ THE Son of God, knows God personally and completely. All the other 'sons of God' DO NOT KNOW GOD as perfectly and totally as JESUS CHRIST DOES..though they may be called 'sons of god'.

And Jesus goes on to say that only HE ALONE has the authority to impart the true knowledge of God to whoever He chooses - those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. in His own words.

Thats why in John 3, monogenes is used and not gennao. Jesus Christ is THE One AND Only - Monogenes - Son of God.

He alone is uniquely different AND ABOVE from those other 'sons of god', indeed.

Why don't you try to wrap your mind around Matthew 11: 25-29 thoughtfully, barnasha??

Dan.

[beanfarmer]

from where did you learn this demonic logic? start using your heart, not your head... if you can't do that, teachings of Jesus are as useless as a screen door on a submarine!

It is only demonic if it is wrong, and that has not been proven as long as you ignore my posts where I prove Jesus was God. On the other hand, your logic has yet to be proven because you fail to deal with all of the words of Jesus. I learned it from reading all of the Gospels not just the parts that seemidly agree with Islam and the rest of the New Testament but mainly from all the words of Jesus. " start using your heart, not your head..." Funny, that was the same advice given to me by the mormons when I brought up that archaeology did not support that the Jews came to America and built great cities I think because it happened 25 years ago. Here is what I told them. I had a friend that really believed dolly parton was his girlfriend when all he ever did was look at her on tv. He felt it with his heart but did that make it true? Dolly did not think so. What you feel in your heart must be tested by your head lest you are "carried about by every wind of doctrine" as some of the earliest christians were when they fornicated or became gnostics or fell back into Judaism.

[Dan Zebiri]

How very intelligent of smaneck to assign 'demonic guilt' to the apostle Paul, which is nothing more than cheap polemics...hahahaha!

[barnasha]

It is demonic logic to say something like " Since we cannot love our neighbor......"

You have immediately accepted defeat and surrendered any hope you had of following the commandments of Rabbi Jesus.


DONT

DO

THAT

!


Follow Jesus's teachings, don't say "well, that's too hard" and go follow a system based on Paul's writings instead.

Romans 13:8-10

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

In Jesus's system, we find excuses to do good, we don't make artificial emblems of our faith such as dogmas to hide our imperfections... we strive for perfection, we love actively and in the present...

[smaneck]

I agree they could execute with Roman permission.

I've never read anything in Acts of the Apostles which suggest that the Romans were consulted before they stoned Stephen. Nor is there any mention of this in connection with the woman caught in adultery or when they attempt to stone Jesus Himself in John's Gospel.

The OT suggests a world Messiah of David giving salvation for all time, and the NT has Jesus saying he is it.

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

But Jesus neither raised up the tribes of Jacob nor restored Israel.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Personally think Jesus' meaning can best be understood in light of a passage from Baha'u'llah:

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

warmest, Susan

[smaneck]

How very intelligent of smaneck to assign 'demonic guilt' to the apostle Paul, which is nothing more than cheap polemics...hahahaha!

I did not use the word 'demonic', I was merely pointing out to Barmasha where the theology came from, as I'm sure you know:

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(King James Bible, Romans)

[Rainbow Brite]

I've never read anything in Acts of the Apostles which suggest that the Romans were consulted before they stoned Stephen. Nor is there any mention of this in connection with the woman caught in adultery or when they attempt to stone Jesus Himself in John's Gospel.

If "it really isn't true that the Jews had no law to put a man to death..." then Roman law must have somehow allowed for Jewish authorities to do it.

But Jesus neither raised up the tribes of Jacob nor restored Israel.

I and others believe it is done through Israelite Christians in a spiritual Israel, not all Israelites may know their ethnic identities either. I also believe it is literally completed in the land of Israel when Jesus returns.

Personally think Jesus' meaning can best be understood in light of a passage from Baha'u'llah:

The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man's understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory.

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 49)

warmest, Susan

This seems agreeable in the sense that God manifested through prophets, though I'm not sure about being completely identical with God's knowledge, though they had some of it.

But, does it mean you agree or disagree with John 14:6?

[beanfarmer]

It is demonic logic to say something like " Since we cannot love our neighbor......"

Funny, I don't recall Paul saying anything like that. In fact in your quote he says the opposite. A classic straw man approch with a little ad hominem thrown in. When you can not deal with the argument, you set up a straw man because it is easier to knock down than the real thing.

You have immediately accepted defeat and surrendered any hope you had of following the commandments of Rabbi Jesus.

Who has really given up on the teachings of Jesus, the one who ignores part of what he said to the point of not answering any post that doesn't agree with Islam or the one who embraces all of what Jesus said?

Follow Jesus's teachings, don't say "well, that's too hard" and go follow a system based on Paul's writings instead.

I'm the one that follows ALL Jesus's teachings and I submit Paul did too.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. In Jesus's system, we find excuses to do good, we don't make artificial emblems of our faith such as dogmas to hide our imperfections... we strive for perfection, we love actively and in the present...

That is funny because Jesus is saying almost the same thing as Paul in mt22;39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I am using Jesus's system because I use all of his system not a part of it as you do. Remember, I said I got most of my teachings on the trinity from Jesus's words not from Paul.

[barnasha]

Funny, I don't recall Paul saying anything like that. In fact in your quote he says the opposite. A classic straw man approch with a little ad hominem thrown in. When you can not deal with the argument, you set up a straw man because it is easier to knock down than the real thing.

no strawman or ad hominem. I merely called something demonic logic (logic itself is demonic when it replaces love). Not because of Paul or anything else.

for it to be a "strawman' or "ad hominem" i would have to say "it is demonic logic because ___", presenting a logical argument; only then could there be a fallacy.

Who has really given up on the teachings of Jesus, the one who ignores part of what he said to the point of not answering any post that doesn't agree with Islam or the one who embraces all of what Jesus said?

i am not sure what relevance there is to this line of questioning to the teachings of Jesus.

I'm the one that follows ALL Jesus's teachings and I submit Paul did too.

That is funny because Jesus is saying almost the same thing as Paul in mt22;39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I am using Jesus's system because I use all of his system not a part of it as you do. Remember, I said I got most of my teachings on the trinity from Jesus's words not from Paul.

If you are using Jesus's system, that's good. But many christians use a church's system - ... things that were not explicitly part of Jesus's teachings but rather serve as an addition.

For the most part, I don't see that Paul did this, although, there are some things that are unique to his views which shaped a lot of common post-Jesus dogma.

[smaneck]

I and others believe it is done through Israelite Christians in a spiritual Israel, not all Israelites may know their ethnic identities either. I also believe it is literally completed in the land of Israel when Jesus returns.

But of course, when Isaiah was written this was understood to refer to the literal redemption of Israel and Judah from captivity, so I don't think this passage can be used to establish Jesus' uniqueness. Indeed, if anyone fulfilled this prophecy literally it would have been Cyrus the Great who Deutero-Isaiah refers to explicitly as Messiah.

But, does it mean you agree or disagree with John 14:6?

Unlike Muslims, I don't have much of a problem with John's Gospel, I just don't understand it the same way most Christians do.

[Rainbow Brite]

But of course, when Isaiah was written this was understood to refer to the literal redemption of Israel and Judah from captivity, so I don't think this passage can be used to establish Jesus' uniqueness. Indeed, if anyone fulfilled this prophecy literally it would have been Cyrus the Great who Deutero-Isaiah refers to explicitly as Messiah.

That would mean Cyrus was from Jesse or showed salvation to the end of the earth...

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

There's only one Messiah figure said to be from Jesse doing that all over the world, not Buddha or Mohammed or Bahá’u’lláh or anyone else.

Unlike Muslims, I don't have much of a problem with John's Gospel, I just don't understand it the same way most Christians do.

Bahá’u’lláh's Gleanings refer to John's Gospel HERE.

BG CXVI: In another passage He saith: “When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” And yet, behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Which means Bahá’u’lláh might also seem to agree with John that the world is saved through Jesus.

[beanfarmer]

no strawman or ad hominem. I merely called something demonic logic (logic itself is demonic when it replaces love). Not because of Paul or anything else.

Who said it replaced love? Love is at it's very core!

for it to be a "strawman' or "ad hominem" i would have to say "it is demonic logic because ___", presenting a logical argument; only then could there be a fallacy.

1st of all, straw man and ad hominem are 2 different categories of errors in logic and both fit whether or not there is a 'because' besides that you did include a because because you said they were demonic because they put aside love.

i am not sure what relevance there is to this line of questioning to the teachings of Jesus.

it has everything to do with the teachings of Jesus because you pick only the verses that you think support the Islamic view. I base my theory on all of what Jesus said like Paul did. You however, did not respond to any of the posts that proved Jesus was divine.

If you are using Jesus's system, that's good. But many christians use a church's system - ... things that were not explicitly part of Jesus's teachings but rather serve as an addition.

I admit there are many so called christians that distort Jesus's
teachings nearly as much as you do mainly by the same method. Ignoring parts of the Bible that don't agree with them.

For the most part, I don't see that Paul did this, although, there are some things that are unique to his views which shaped a lot of common post-Jesus dogma.

What parts do you think Paul got wrong and why? You sound like your saying Jesus did not teach what Paul taught. What are your sources? The Qu'ran? The bulk of the earliest documents agree with Paul including the gospels if you don't rip out parts that don't agree with you.

[beanfarmer]

samaneck, you did not explain why you think monogenes means unique when the definition, etymology and usage say only begotten?

[beanfarmer]

samaneck, you did not explain why you think monogenes means unique when the definition, etymology and usage say only begotten? and how christians are the true Israel? Or don't you have a response?