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Thread: RC Church = Whore of Babylon, and that sort of stuff.

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    When I was a new Xian back in the '80s, I used to hear a lot of that, mainly from the Fundies in my circle of friends at college. They really seemed to push those beliefs at my then-girlfriend's CMA church, especially when there was a "Prophecy Conference."

    In the late '90s, I was told by seemingly well informed people at two reputable Internet discussion venues that back in the days of the Reformation, the beliefs that the Pope was the Antichrist and the RC Church was the Whore of Babylon were at least semi-official for Protestantism as a whole.

    1) Is that true?

    2) What about the OC? What did the Reformers believe about that branch of Xianity?
    1 John 2:18
    " . . .the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, . . ."

    That he is just one of the "antichrists" as there are many!!
    BU

  2. #12
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Going back to the OP, the idea of anything being "semi-official" within Protestantism doesn't make a lot of sense for obvious reasons.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  3. Amen Juvenal amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    Going back to the OP, the idea of anything being "semi-official" within Protestantism doesn't make a lot of sense for obvious reasons.
    Depends on the kind of Protestantism. Anglicans, Reformed, Lutherans, and Baptists (& probably others) have all issued Confessions of Faith, catechisms, and other credal documents.

    There might be less inter-Church consensus between the various Protestant communions, but not none. And all of them share to some degree in a common Protestant tradition.

    Besides, there can be real communion of hearts even where there is no or little agreement in doctrine and discipline. Communion of hearts is arguably far more important, and a far more fundamental kind of union between Protestants, than agreement in doctrine.

  5. #14
    tWebber ReformedApologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

    The Death Cookie!

    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
    Attachment 18594
    And who could forget Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons. Talk about shoddy research for its time but it had an impact.

  6. #15
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    have you seen Jack Chick tracts?

    The Death Cookie!

    http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
    Attachment 18594
    I forced myself to read it as far as "IHS stands for Isis Horus and Set" - At that point it just became (I don't think there's a word for what it became.)
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  7. #16
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    I forced myself to read it as far as "IHS stands for Isis Horus and Set" - At that point it just became (I don't think there's a word for what it became.)
    Top tier entertainment?

  8. #17
    tWebber tabibito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Top tier entertainment?
    more a matter of whatever it is that leaves a person aghast and disgusted with a dash of outraged.
    1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

  9. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  10. #18
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedApologist View Post
    And who g forget Alexander Hislop's Two Babylons. Talk about shoddy research for its time but it had an impact.
    It still sells - and has been translated into German, French, Spanish, and (most recently ?) Russian.

    None of which stops it being…not exactly good scholarship. Thanks to AH, a lot of people have wildly inaccurate notions about Ancient Mesopotamian religion/culture. Thanks in large part to the popularisation of “best bits” of it by Jack Chick.

  11. #19
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    Top tier entertainment?
    Well, Isis and Horus and Seb, actually. “Seb” is a misreading of “Geb”, a correction not made until roughly 1915 (AFAIK). Set the brother/murderer of Osiris is not mentioned by Hislop by name - though he refers to him indirectly when talking about the god “Bar” in Egypt - “Bar” = the Syrian storm-god Baal, who was syncretised with Egyptian Set.

    It’s an……interesting……book: basically a brief for the prosecution against the CC. What sets it apart from most books of that sort is, that Hislop (a minister of the Free Kirk of Scotland, so a most thorough Protestant) sought to show that the Papacy was Babylon the Great (as per Rev 17) by using the description of BtG as “mystery” to identify the religion of BtG with the religion of the Babylon of the OT, by identifying the cup in the hand of BtG in Rev 17.4 with the cup in Jer. 51.7.

    His thesis is basically that the religion of OT Babylon was inherited by Rome, and became the religion of BtG AKA the Papacy. The Papacy observes Christmas Day - therefore, the Babylonians must have. The 1862 edition of the book was the last to appear in his lifetime, and by 1862, although a good start had been made on working out how to read and translate the cuneiform texts then available, and although the language then called Assyrian (now called Akkadian) had been identified as distinct from Hebrew, Hislop refers almost not at all to texts in (what is now called) Akkadian, and continually refers to Akkadian as “Chaldee”, which for his purposes seems to include Aramaic (then commonly called Chaldee) & Hebrew. The language now known as Sumerian was hardly recognised in 1862, and was referred to as “Chaldean”, which does not help. Hislop had no way of knowing that in Ancient Mesopotamia both Akkadian & Sumerian were used, nor that the two languages were unrelated. So when he argued from the etymology of the language he called Chaldee, he came up with very strange results.

    For instance, he takes “Osiris”, seemingly a Greek version of Egyptian *Wsr*, “Mighty”, and reads it as “He-Siri”, “The Seed” - that is, the (supposed) “Babylonian Messiah”, a figure supposed to be a satanic decoy from the genuine Messiah. The idea that Babylonian religion was a diabolical travesty of Christianity, is one of the main ideas of the book. Arguments from (almost always dodgy) etymology are a major form of proof of his argument.

    If a Gaelic-speaking Scot got it into his head that Scotland was the Israel of the Bible, and brought forth the following details:

    ”coats of skins” = kilts
    ”coat of many colours” = tartan plaid
    pouch for the Urim and Thummim = sporran
    the dancing of Miriam & the worshippers of the Golden Calf = a ceilidh
    twelve tribes = twelve clans
    Shem = the personal name Seumas
    King David of Scotland = King David of Israel
    Leviathan = Loch Ness Monster
    The name Levi-athan proves that Nessie was looked after by the Levites.
    Chaldeans = Culdees
    ”whisky” is an Anglicisation of *uisge beatha*, “water of life” - so references to the “water of life” = whisky
    the Assyrian army commander named Tartan, who came to Ashdod.

    - he would be making his case in much the same way as Hislop does.

    Since all false religion throughout the world is the fault of Nimrod the supposed founder of the Tower of Babel, all religions and cultures are treated as variants of the Babylonian Mystery Religion, and details from them, are treated as evidence for it, and are used to fill in the gaps in what was known about it. This also means that lots of deities can be identified with each other, and with Hislop’s three principal “stars” Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz. If by any ingenuity X can be identified with Y, all details about X are transferred to Y. By this method, Mr Spock the Vulcan would be the same person as Dr Spock the paediatrician, and the paediatrician would therefore have pointy ears, be born on Vulcan, & serve on the Enterprise as First Officer under Captain James T. Kirk.

    It’s entertaining “from a certain point of view”. As long as one has a weird sense of humour. A monument of misapplied ingenuity, IMO.

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