Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
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George H. W. Bush voting for Clinton
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βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThus, you are indeed a Trump supporter. Yes or no?Supporter
1. a person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2. Heraldry - a representation of an animal or other figure, typically one of a pair, holding up or standing beside an escutcheon.
A) I don't fit definition 1
2) I don't have a clue what 2 means
So, no.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSupporter
1. a person who approves of and encourages someone or something (typically a public figure, a movement or party, or a policy).
2. Heraldry - a representation of an animal or other figure, typically one of a pair, holding up or standing beside an escutcheon.
A) I don't fit definition 1
2) I don't have a clue what 2 means
So, no.βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI wish Jesus the Messiah was indeed a candidate, but since he's not, I will instead support the election of Donald Trump. Yes or no?
Please provide your best definition of "supporter", cause I think that's different than forcing "support the election of Donald Trump" onto "I will hold my nose and vote for him".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAh, a different question than "are you a Trump supporter".
Please provide your best definition of "supporter", cause I think that's different than forcing "support the election of Donald Trump" onto "I will hold my nose and vote for him".βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI'm not exactly sure where the "socialist" accusation comes from relative to the socialist system US functions under now and has been for decades.
Whereas in Europe, socialism and capitalism refer to who controls businesses. In capitalism, the businesses operate in a dictatorial top-down structure where the private individuals with money own and run the business, and then appoint and fire staff and give them orders, and the staff themselves have little to no legal power to affect policy in the business they work in. Socialism refers to the power and control within the businesses being more distributed toward all concerned parties and not merely the private individual with the money. In one variant of it - Communism - the government simply replaces the rich individual as the shareholder of the business, and while technically the workers can vote to change the government, the situation within the business mostly continues as before with a very top-down command and policy structure, but there are negative effects on the market if individuals are not allowed to create their own businesses within communist regimes and negative effects on workers if the government shareholder allows them to slack off to a massive extent (as happened under some communist regimes - though, of course, it need not happen and many modern governments in capitalist societies are majority shareholders in a few businesses which operate totally normally like any other company with respect to their employees being disciplined/paid bonuses).
The more popular forms of socialism today emphasize spreading the policy control within the business among the workers and not having a top-down structure. The main forms of achieving this include: Making employees automatic share-holders; putting employee representatives on the company's board (Germany does this and it seems to work well); strong unions, where representatives of the employees can negotiate directly with the CEO or board, and thus have an influence on business policy. This is the sort of socialism I support (and which Bernie Sanders was supporting). In these senses the line between capitalism (full control of companies by the person who owns it) and socialism (workers in the companies have influence) is pretty blurry, and countries commonly called 'capitalist' like America or Germany are seen to be actually partially socialist due to their unions and worker representation on boards."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostHuh? Sounds like you are trying to be even more subtle than Duns Scotus in trying to define a formal distinction that is somehow not a real distinction. You either support Donald the Dishonest or Crooked Hillary. It's not all that complicated.
A) I'm not a Republican - I'm an independent
2) I haven't sent a dime to Trump campaign, nor do I intend to
iii) I didn't vote for Trump in the Primary
4) I don't have a Trump yard sign, or bumper sticker, or any other kind of visible "support"
E) As far as I'm concerned, Trump equates to more of a 'useful idiot'
I'm anti-Hillary. If, in your eyes, that somehow makes me a Trump Supporter, go for it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostBut what does 'ebol' mean? Must be totally over my head.
Originally posted by EvoUK View PostActually, I'm considered generally slightly right of centre in the UK, and we'd consider Hillary right wing too. She's only left wing by the standards of a right wing country.
So in this instance, though I don't doubt starlight is very left wing, he's not far off a 'outside the US' view of Hillary.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostRob, if it makes you feel good to call me a Trump supporter, knock yourself out. But it's silly. I don't understand why you're fixated on this.
A) I'm not a Republican - I'm an independent
2) I haven't sent a dime to Trump campaign, nor do I intend to
iii) I didn't vote for Trump in the Primary
4) I don't have a Trump yard sign, or bumper sticker, or any other kind of visible "support"
E) As far as I'm concerned, Trump equates to more of a 'useful idiot'
I'm anti-Hillary. If, in your eyes, that somehow makes me a Trump Supporter, go for it.
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Originally posted by Adrift View Post
I hear people (especially those from overseas) say this sort of thing about the American left vs the European left all the time, and I don't know... Perhaps from an economic perspective Hillary is right of center, but it seems to me that the left in general in America is often socially on target with the rest of the world."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI think his point is simply that, if you put a check in the box next to his name at election time, you are, by definition, supporting Trump. That seems to me like a fair definition of "support". As I've said before, you could always vote third party or not vote at all...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostMeh.... I don't think choosing the evil of two lessers is "support"."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostActively participating in their election (by voting for him) is the strongest possible way you could support someone.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Y'all seem to forget that when you vote for someone it might not be because you support them but rather it is because you oppose who he/she is running against.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat's just silly -- if I had yard signs, was actively defending him, encouraging others to vote for him.... I do so reluctantly. If you want to believe that's "the strongest possible way", you're certainly free to believe that."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostY'all seem to forget that when you vote for someone it might not be because you support them but rather it is because you oppose who he/she is running against.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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