Miraculous spiritual gifts have not ceased.

[FredFlanders]

[QUOTE=Dispen4ever;2528399]JonathanDW, Fred and 1980 continue to misinterpret and misapply scripture. All we can do is testify to the truth and leave it there. Let's pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten them. Memorizing 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 might help them both.

Dispen4ever,
1 Cor 2 v 1-16, is the perfect example of the heavenly language (speaking in tongues) God gave to believers, the mystery and hidden wisdom that was ordained by God which God demonstrates though the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

[Trusty]

iboughtahondashouldofboughtayamaha!

1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put aside childish things."

[FredFlanders]

iboughtahondashouldofboughtayamaha!

1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put aside childish things."

Trusty,
You forgot the rest of the scriptures v 10 tells us that these will cease when what is perfect is come. This will happen at the return of Christ. It goes on to say in verse 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

[Trusty]

It was a joke fella. But I think all the hocus pocus went out of Christianity in 70 AD...sorry. I know you disagree...but of well.

Have fun with it, all my hillbilly cousins do for sure. When Benny Hinn came to Little Rock, the wacko's came out in full force.

[bc1980]

Dispy, I've offered my interpretation of the one passage that was offered to me. I make the same offer to you. Since you feel the need to inform people of my error, the least you could do is offer for us all your contextual interpretation and why you believe as you do.

So we don't have to cover too much ground at one time, try to hold it to 2 or 3 passages, trying to keep it in context.

JonathanDW, Fred and 1980 continue to misinterpret and misapply scripture. All we can do is testify to the truth and leave it there. Let's pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten them. Memorizing 1 Corinthians 2:1-16might help them both.

I thank you for your prayers. We all need the Holy Spirit's guidance.

[JonathanDW]

I've given 1 Cor 13:8-10but you refused to give your divinely inspired opinion on the text.

There is no need for sarcasm. You gave several passages and I was waiting for you to decide which one we would address first. We will address 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

I apologize if I had offended you but you claim to have divine inspiration.

Paul started the letter by saying the Corinthians (Gentile, non-apostles, non-70) did not lack any spiritual gift, but he went on to rebuke them for their carnal way of life. It seems that the Corinthians had gotten out of balance and thought "gifts" were a sign of spirituality while neglecting the character and love that should be present in all Christians.

Agreed, the Corinthians had special gifts.

So in 13:1 Paul begins to show them the better way, the way of "love". Paul is saying that love is the bond, its what holds everything together, not the gifts the Corinthians were focusing on.

Agreed: Love never ends.

But let us focus on verse 10 because the is where our discrepancy comes in.

10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. AND

12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Obviously there is nothing in the context that could lend itself to interpreting this passage as referring to the Scriptures.

The passage tells the Corinthians that as they look in the mirror they see dimly or in part but in the future they will be able to see themselves face to face. Can you see the reality of yourself through the scriptures? Of course.

John says (my paraphrase), we don't know all yet, but when Christ appears, all questions will be answered and we will be like Him.

"His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness..." 2 Peter 1:3

We can know everything that pertains to this life just as 1 Cor 13 is dealing with. John's dealing with life after the judgment.

Therefore, I put it to you guys. The "perfection" referred to in 1 Corinthians 13 is not referring to some book we know as the Bible. It is referring to Christ, Himself. The Scriptures are not perfect, they are inerrant, but not perfect. Perfect implies that it is in need of nothing. But we know the Scriptures cannot interpret themselves. If that were so the Pharisees would not have missed Christ. Jesus is that "perfection" for which we all hope. When He comes, yes the gifts will cease, but the Scriptures probably will to at that time.

Just because someone refuses to read the Bible it doesn't make it imperfect.

God didn't call us into a relationship with a book, He called us into a relationship with His Son through the Holy Spirit, who happens also to be the "gift giver."

"How that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have written already, by which when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ. Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:" Ephesians 3:3-5

God gave His revelations to His holy apostles so that we can read it and have a relationship with him.


Now let's look at the passage. As you have agreed, verses 1-7 deal with Love. This is referring to Love here on this earth and how brotherly love is to behave. This let's us know that it's pertaining to life here on this earth.

There are three things that he mentions here: tongues, prophecies and knowledge. This knowledge pertains to the knowledge that Paul just told us about in Chapter 12:8 which is miraculous knowledge.

These three things are all in part. If something is in part, that means it is a part of a whole. We are not dealing with apples and oranges here. When all of the parts are put together to bring about the whole, the whole will now be perfected. The purpose of miraculous gifts are to bring about the whole which is the revelation of God. (Heb 2:8,9; Mark 16:20;)

Verse 10 says when that which is perfect comes not who.

11 "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

The miraculous gifts were to nurture the early Church and help it become mature. Just as when a child learns to ride his bike, he no longer needs his training wheels.

12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known."

What do you see in a mirror? Yourself! The Corinthians were looking into a dim mirror trying to understand all things and causing divisions instead. We can now know all things and see ourselves face to face, knowing the true condition of our soul's. (2 Tim 3:16-17) The Corinthians knew in part and now we can know in full because the full revelation of God has come.

" And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

These three things are in contrast to the tongues, prophecies, and miraculous knowledge. Miraculous gifts have passed away and now abideth faith, hope, and love.

[Trusty]

I probably have a lot of research to do, but I think my first task once completing my degree is to write a book called "The Charismatic Delusion".

"Woo Hoo, got me them there gifts feller, gonna speak us some tongues and start hanging demons like undies on a clothespin. Yee Haw!!!"

[bc1980]

I apologize if I had offended you but you claim to have divine inspiration.

No offense taken, I'm just trying to keep our conversations as cordial as possible considering we are taking 2 totally different ends of the spectrum.

I did not claim divine revelation. (I checked my posts to make sure it wasn't me) I am careful to not take that kind of stance. It is tough enough to carry on these debates without sounding bad and adding comments that are infinitely subjective such as claiming divine inspiration is not beneficial.

The passage tells the Corinthians that as they look in the mirror they see dimly or in part but in the future they will be able to see themselves face to face. Can you see the reality of yourself through the scriptures? Of course.

Partial agreement. I can see the reality that I was in need of Christ, but Scripture still does not tell you all. It wasn't designed to. It is given to reveal Christ.

"His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness..." 2 Peter 1:3

It says "His "power"", not, "the Scriptures have given to us all things...." I would never use this passage to defend the "gifts" but if any thing, this passage supports gifts because the gifts are the power of the Spirit working through the believer.

John's dealing with life after the judgment.

Agreed, but I also say to you that the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is dealing with that same time frame. It does not even hint that they were looking forward to the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

Just because someone refuses to read the Bible it doesn't make it imperfect.

If I did, I did not mean to imply that. What I am trying to say is the Holy Spirit must give understanding to the Scriptures. Jesus said that the Pharisees studied the Scriptures thinking in THEM they had life, but they refused to come to the One the Scriptures was talking about (my paraphrase).

God gave His revelations to His holy apostles so that we can read it and have a relationship with him.

I agree, but that does not give you all the information you need to live life. His (Paul) revelations were concerning Christ. Reading the Bible does not help you decide which of the pastoral candidates you need to choose to be the next pastor of your church. We often need revelation that we can not get by reading the Bible.

As for the last part of your post, that which ended with faith, hope and love. (I ddin't want to copy all of it for space sake)

The problem with stopping there is Paul did not stop there. Paul is not saying all that he is saying (Chapters 12,13 & 14) because the gifts are going to soon disappear. He is saying all of this because the Corinthians were not operating in love. As you pointed out, the gifts were causing division, not because there was something inadequate with the gifts, but because the Corinthians were so self-focused and self-serving that they were using the gifts wrongly, to fulfill their own self-worth. If we gain self-worth by using gifts or using the Scriptures, our motives are impure and we need to be corrected. Our self-worth should come from God and God alone (who we are in Christ).

The "gifts" are for serving others, whether they are believers or unbelievers. If Charismatics are using their gifts to make a name for themselves and draw attention to themselves, they are wrong. We should all strive to lay down our lives and private agendas for the sake of honoring and exalting Christ.

I would be classified as a Charismatic because of my stance on the gifts, but I am their worst critic because of the way I see them acting so many times.
There are Charismatics out there with character and integrity who are devoted to the study of the Word and seek in all things to glorify Christ, not themselves, but they don't make "good t.v." if you know what I mean.

[RBerman]

It's a pity that discussion of "miraculous spiritual gifts" usually ends up being about healing or special insights or so-called heavenly languages. God has given all Christians his Spirit to unite us to Christ, to regenerate our hearts, to convict us from sin, to illuminate our study of Scripture, and to conform us t the image of Christ. In my experience, focus on "sign gifts" tends to be at the expense of contemplation of these more important works of the Spirit.

[JonathanDW]

I apologize if I had offended you but you claim to have divine inspiration.

No offense taken, I'm just trying to keep our conversations as cordial as possible considering we are taking 2 totally different ends of the spectrum.

I did not claim divine revelation. (I checked my posts to make sure it wasn't me)

You claim the Holy Spirit has given you understanding. In this same post you said "What I am trying to say is the Holy Spirit must give understanding to the Scriptures." That's revelation.

Answer this question: Is it possible that you are wrong? If not, why?

I am careful to not take that kind of stance. It is tough enough to carry on these debates without sounding bad and adding comments that are infinitely subjective such as claiming divine inspiration is not beneficial.

So you believe you have divine inspiration but you don't want anyone to know you have it?

Partial agreement. I can see the reality that I was in need of Christ, but Scripture still does not tell you all. It wasn't designed to. It is given to reveal Christ.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16,17

Jesus said the scriptures are able to keep us erring from the faith, not a divine encounter with the Holy Spirit. Mark 12:24

It says "His "power"", not, "the Scriptures have given to us all things...." I would never use this passage to defend the "gifts" but if any thing, this passage supports gifts because the gifts are the power of the Spirit working through the believer.

So without gifts we can know nothing about this life and godliness? This is clearly talking about the revelation of God which he gave to us through His holy apostles. Which they wrote down so we can also rejoice in the knowledge of God.

Agreed, but I also say to you that the 1 Corinthians 13 passage is dealing with that same time frame. It does not even hint that they were looking forward to the completion of the Canon of Scripture.

Hint: "When that which is perfect has come then that which is in part will be done away with."

As I have just showed, we're not dealing with apples and oranges. The purpose of gifts were to bring about the revelation of God. Just as scaffolds are used to build a building. When the buildings complete, you take the scaffolding down.

The gifts are a part of a whole, when all of the parts have completed the whole it is now made perfect. Since you believe "that which is perfect" is Jesus you are essentially saying that Jesus is imperfect or in part since the gifts allegedly have not ceased.

Just because someone refuses to read the Bible it doesn't make it imperfect.

If I did, I did not mean to imply that. What I am trying to say is the Holy Spirit must give understanding to the Scriptures. Jesus said that the Pharisees studied the Scriptures thinking in THEM they had life, but they refused to come to the One the Scriptures was talking about (my paraphrase).

BCV (book chapter verse)

The Holy Spirit has given us understanding, it's called the Bible. Anyone can pick it up and read it without a divine intervention. If I have to have a revelation from God in order to understand the Bible that would be a cult. That's also the same excuse that Mormon's use. Mormon's say that the Holy Spirit has to tell you that the book of Mormon's true.

God gave His revelations to His holy apostles so that we can read it and have a relationship with him.

I agree, but that does not give you all the information you need to live life. His (Paul) revelations were concerning Christ. Reading the Bible does not help you decide which of the pastoral candidates you need to choose to be the next pastor of your church. We often need revelation that we can not get by reading the Bible.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16,17

The Bible tells us who's qualified for leadership positions. You don't need an illumination.

As for the last part of your post, that which ended with faith, hope and love. (I ddin't want to copy all of it for space sake)

The problem with stopping there is Paul did not stop there. Paul is not saying all that he is saying (Chapters 12,13 & 14) because the gifts are going to soon disappear. He is saying all of this because the Corinthians were not operating in love. As you pointed out, the gifts were causing division, not because there was something inadequate with the gifts, but because the Corinthians were so self-focused and self-serving that they were using the gifts wrongly, to fulfill their own self-worth. If we gain self-worth by using gifts or using the Scriptures, our motives are impure and we need to be corrected. Our self-worth should come from God and God alone (who we are in Christ).

The "gifts" are for serving others, whether they are believers or unbelievers. If Charismatics are using their gifts to make a name for themselves and draw attention to themselves, they are wrong. We should all strive to lay down our lives and private agendas for the sake of honoring and exalting Christ.

I would be classified as a Charismatic because of my stance on the gifts, but I am their worst critic because of the way I see them acting so many times.
There are Charismatics out there with character and integrity who are devoted to the study of the Word and seek in all things to glorify Christ, not themselves, but they don't make "good t.v." if you know what I mean.

BCV

[bc1980]

Now that this discussion has turned to you trying to twist what I've said into something else, I will end this discussion with you now. Both our views are posted and also the ways we handled the Scriptures that were brought forth. That will suffice for now.

[JonathanDW]

Now that this discussion has turned to you trying to twist what I've said into something else, I will end this discussion with you now. Both our views are posted and also the ways we handled the Scriptures that were brought forth. That will suffice for now.

I've twisted nothing, you've failed to follow your doctrine to the logical conclusions.

[FredFlanders]

It's a pity that discussion of "miraculous spiritual gifts" usually ends up being about healing or special insights or so-called heavenly languages. God has given all Christians his Spirit to unite us to Christ, to regenerate our hearts, to convict us from sin, to illuminate our study of Scripture, and to conform us t the image of Christ. In my experience, focus on "sign gifts" tends to be at the expense of contemplation of these more important works of the Spirit.

No RB,
All people who call them selves Christian does not mean they automatically have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is something you have to seek after. Here are some examples of God fearing people, some of who believed in Jesus yet didn't have the Holy Spirit.


You can believe in Jesus yet not be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is a deception of Satan to believe you have the Holy Spirit without the Signs following. Many Christians believe because of their good works, they have the Holy Spirit. This is a deception. There are many other good people in other religions that do good works. Does that mean they have the Holy Spirit?
Here are some NT scriptures where people believed in God yet not received the Holy Spirit until the power had come upon them.
Acts 8; Philip went to Samaria to preach Christ unto them. The didn't took heed to what Philip spoke and the miracles he did casting out demons and healing the sick. They were baptised in the name of Jesus. Yet none had received the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John were sent and they lay their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10; Cornelius was a devout man that feared God withal his house, gave to the poor and prayed to God always. Yet Cornelius had not received the Holy Spirit until Peter spoke to him about how God had anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. Then the same Holy Spirit that fell on Jesus and the Hebrews fell on Cornelius and his household.
Acts 19; Paul met disciples at Ephesus which believed and had been baptised yet had not’t received the Holy Spirit. So Paul laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit comes upon believers they not only “speak in tongues” but receive power to preach the Gospel, heal the sick and cast out demons. Acts 1 v 8 & Mark 16 v 16-20.

[JonathanDW]

No RB,
All people who call them selves Christian does not mean they automatically have the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is something you have to seek after. Here are some examples of God fearing people, some of who believed in Jesus yet didn't have the Holy Spirit.

"verily I say unto thee except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:3,5

In order to take part in the new birth you must be born of the Spirit (in water baptism.) No one who has not been born of the Spirit will inherit the Kingdom of God.

You can believe in Jesus yet not be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is a deception of Satan to believe you have the Holy Spirit without the Signs following.

Where does the Bible say that?

Many Christians believe because of their good works, they have the Holy Spirit. This is a deception. There are many other good people in other religions that do good works.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." John 14:6

Jesus only set up one Church.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, One faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

Here are some NT scriptures where people believed in God yet not received the Holy Spirit until the power had come upon them.
Acts 8; Philip went to Samaria to preach Christ unto them. The didn't took heed to what Philip spoke and the miracles he did casting out demons and healing the sick. They were baptised in the name of Jesus. Yet none had received the Holy Spirit. So Peter and John were sent and they lay their hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.

Did Peter or John lay hands on you?

Acts 10; Cornelius was a devout man that feared God withal his house, gave to the poor and prayed to God always. Yet Cornelius had not received the Holy Spirit until Peter spoke to him about how God had anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power. Then the same Holy Spirit that fell on Jesus and the Hebrews fell on Cornelius and his household.

This was a sign to the Jews that Salvation was available to everyone.

Acts 19; Paul met disciples at Ephesus which believed and had been baptised yet had not’t received the Holy Spirit. So Paul laid his hands upon them and they received the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit comes upon believers they not only “speak in tongues” but receive power to preach the Gospel, heal the sick and cast out demons. Acts 1 v 8 & Mark 16 v 16-20.

Did Paul lay his hands on you?

If miraculous gifts were still here today, we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be undeniable.

[FredFlanders]

"verily I say unto thee except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... Verily I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:3,5

In order to take part in the new birth you must be born of the Spirit (in water baptism.) No one who has not been born of the Spirit will inherit the Kingdom of God.



Where does the Bible say that?



"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me." John 14:6

Jesus only set up one Church.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, One faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6



Did Peter or John lay hands on you?



This was a sign to the Jews that Salvation was available to everyone.



Did Paul lay his hands on you?

If miraculous gifts were still here today, we wouldn't be having this conversation because they would be undeniable.

Jonathan,
I hope you have a concordance. Jesus is using something in the natural to describe some thing spiritual.
You mist some important scriptures, John 3v 8 Tells us the wind (Spirit) has a sound (speaking in tongues) and so is everyone born of the Spirit. And talks in v 5 of a baptism (immersion) in water and another in the Spirit. The same pattern as in Acts 8,10 and 19.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

And no Paul, Peter and John did not lay hands on me. An elderly gentleman called Eric lay his hands on me and I was filled with the Holy Spirit with the same empowerment that we read in the NT and that Paul, Peter and John had.