Where are the demons today?

[Trusty]

You are put into a state of agitation by the delusional and the fakers. Did I get that right the first time?

Almost. I was eventually put into the state of agitation. It was amusement at first...but since the circus went on for well over an hour and a half before they decided to actually pray for the people with their new found demons and personal problems, the agitation grew out of the lengthy mix of her psychic, Spirit-filled esp mixed with all the abstract preaching.

[RBerman]

No we are not fallen creatures once empowered with the Holy Spirit. It is this Holy Spirit power within us that allows us not to give into the temptation of sin and resist the devil.

The empowerment of the Holy Spirit released/delivered Paul from being tied to sin or these demonic spirits and enabled Paul to fulfill the law of God, just as the Holy Spirit is a separate identity that empowers our body to overcome the enemy in our body (demon spirits) that wills us to sin. This happened when we buried our old fleshly nature in the waters of baptism and were born again with Christ and also be empowered with the Holy Spirit either at baptism or at a latter time. Many believers never get filled with the Holy Spirit with the empowerment that enables them to overcome these demons/sinful nature/evil. They are only baptized and told they have the Holy Spirit. This is a lie of Satan. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is another event that some times takes place at baptism, before baptism or after baptism.

Rom 7 Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! (as Jesus kept His promise and sent us the Holt Spirit/another Comforter) So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is quite an odd reading of Romans 7. It seems much easier to say that Paul is talking about his own sinful nature warring with his Christian nature, rather than having him say that his innate spiritual nature is suffering attack from an external demonic force.

Romans 7:18-19

I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

Your Wesleyan "second blessing" theology lacks adequate Scriptural evidence. The Holy Spirit is within Christians, period. It strengthens our fight against all forces of evil, whether our weakening sinful nature, or demons, or the forces of the world.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Almost. I was eventually put into the state of agitation. It was amusement at first...but since the circus went on for well over an hour and a half before they decided to actually pray for the people with their new found demons and personal problems, the agitation grew out of the lengthy mix of her psychic, Spirit-filled esp mixed with all the abstract preaching.

Trusty what do you know about demons? Is there anything you would care to share about them? Are they created at will by Lucifer? Do they die or cease to exist when a living form inhabited by them dies as in when the swine plunged into the water after Jesus granted them their wish to be placed in the herd of pigs?

I have noticed in my life that many people seem to focus on subsets of the information in the Bible and ignore other scripture. I think every sentence and every word is worthy of contemplation. Jesus was the only human who lived sinless and He certainly had a conversation with Satan. In my opinion Satan and his minions have not yet been consigned to hell but are still loose in this realm.

[Johnny MacManky]

Moderated By: Johnny

Unfortunately this thread has deviated away from the guidelines of the Christianit 201 forum. Following some discussion, it is being moved to Unorthodox Theology.

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[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

I am far less concerned with where this thread is placed than with the question of where are the demons today.

[Vivian]

Your points are interesting. Actually today in church the pastor made a short comment about Acts 16:18. Immediately when I turned to it I realized my faulty memory had been at work once more.

So here we see several things. 1. Divination (going back a few verses) is a demon (or at least it was in this case).
2. Paul was irritated.
3. Paul spoke to the spirit and commanded it to come out.
4. The removal of that demon is evidently permanent because her masters saw that their hope of gains was gone. Of course it could be argued that the demon later returned but we have no evidence of that.
5. There is an implied prejudice by Romans against either Jews or the customs of Jews in the accusation that was made before the Roman magistrates.
6. There may be more in this account of casting out a demon than I am seeing here but those 5 points were the first that came to my mind.

One thing I find interesting about this account is that the woman who had the Demon removed was seemingly simply broadcasting the truth and since it went on for several days evidently Paul was not disturbed by it at first. It almost seems that he got irritated after a while the same way I get irritated by a record playing over and over again. She had apparently become a nuisance. Why did she cease the broadcast after Paul cast out the demon? She knew the veracity of the facts by then. Was the demon not the divination but the broken record behavior?

Are there other "casting outs" in the new testament I have overlooked?

Hi Eeset!

I think we forget that Paul was human, and like all humans he could be annoyed or bothered by some behaviors or noises or energies. And obviously Paul was annoyed and cast the demon out of her based on his annoyance.

And the lesson is that when we use our powers for self, there will be consequences. In this case, time and energy were lost, as they were imprisoned and imprisoned merely because Paul acted on his annoyance!

But there is a greater lesson here, all things can work for good for those who have been called according to his purpose, and the Spirit in Paul turned the situation around, for the good.

But the topic of this thread is demons. And so in looking at this story, we see that not only can demons be behind evil behaviors, but annoying behaviors as well.

Given what we know about demons though, this annoying spirit probably re-entered the woman eventually, unless she closed the doors opened to it by her sin. And so while Paul's annoyance was dealt with, there may not have been any good done for her soul.

But then good was done while Paul was in jail. I would offer, given my own experience of these things, that Paul realized that he allowed the woman's behavior to distract him from his purpose, to make him lose his focus, and in jail he made an adjustment, refocusing with prayer and song, and was able then to be used as a vehicle for good.

Again, back to demons. They are everywhere. For those who can see into the heavens, they see hordes of demons, and angels as well, moving around all the 'empty space' between us, following, hunting, looking for openings. Demons and angels 'see' energetically, and our sin creates heavier vibrations in our souls allowing demons to influence us, just as love and compassion create openings through which angels can influence or touch us.

It does not matter what we call ourselves - Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Muslim - what matters is the abundance of our heart. If it is sin, then the sin will leave openings for demons and their negative influence, but if our heart is filled with love and compassion, then the openings will invoke angels and the transforming divine Grace of God.



Viv

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

It does not matter what we call ourselves - Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Muslim - what matters is the abundance of our heart. If it is sin, then the sin will leave openings for demons and their negative influence, but if our heart is filled with love and compassion, then the openings will invoke angels and the transforming divine Grace of God.
Viv

Your points are enlightening. One thing I find perplexing is that soem people see the very idea of posession as nothing more than an excuse .."the devil made me do it" sort of relieving individual responsibility. Others seem to deny the very existence of Demons or relegate them to non-Christians. And the responses to this thread so far have been rather sparse as if people do not like to accept the very existence of Satan and his minions. Jesus exists. Jesus met with Satan. Satan departed God with 1/3 of the angels. Somehow it seems that many people who accept the Bible as the inspired word of God do not want to accept all of it. There seems to be a pick and choose attitude. If something suits a person literally then it means what it says. If it doesn't then it requires artful interpretation and "re-translation".

Sometimes the statement that when the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the pit seems to apply to the myopic view I often see professed about certain aspects of Satan and his minions. That probably sounds like a criticism but I do not mean it as such. I am simply amazed or even perplexed by the situation. Can Popes cast out Demons? Have any Popes done so in this century? Back to the core question. Jesus cast out literally thousands and also healed multitudes in a single day. Then we see almost nothing except for a few individual events in the rest of the new testament. Why?

[TyRockwell]

Your points are enlightening. One thing I find perplexing is that soem people see the very idea of posession as nothing more than an excuse .."the devil made me do it" sort of relieving individual responsibility. Others seem to deny the very existence of Demons or relegate them to non-Christians.

You are very perceptive, Eeset. From my experience, and what I've seen, most people who have a demon or evil spirits don't know that they do. The people who use the exscuse, "the devil made me do it," really are looking to escape blame and not deal with their own misbehavior. They might want sympathy for their weak will. They probably don't have one, but it takes discernment by someone else to know whether they do. A person who knows he or she has an evil spirit is not likely to talk about it unless they are asking for help. This is another reason why usually only someone with the ability to descern spirits will know one is there and will have to be the one to take authority over it. Sometimes an evil spirit will 'manifest,' that is, make itself known if it is in the presence of someone with the knowledge that he can cast it out.

And the responses to this thread so far have been rather sparse as if people do not like to accept the very existence of Satan and his minions. Jesus exists. Jesus met with Satan. Satan departed God with 1/3 of the angels.

In the denomination I grew up in, there was no one to deal with demons. Though they believed the Bible, and might acknowledge that some persons might have a demon, all they knew to do was to pray for the person, usually when that person was not present. Nothing usually happened. Now I know that prayer and the laying on of hands while praying can drive out the evil spirit, if the one(s) praying do so with authority, and not as though they were asking God to drive out the demon. Sometimes just a touch or a short command by an anointed minister can cast out a demon.

Somehow it seems that many people who accept the Bible as the inspired word of God do not want to accept all of it. There seems to be a pick and choose attitude. If something suits a person literally then it means what it says. If it doesn't then it requires artful interpretation and "re-translation".

Sometimes the statement that when the blind lead the blind both shall fall into the pit seems to apply to the myopic view I often see professed about certain aspects of Satan and his minions. That probably sounds like a criticism but I do not mean it as such. I am simply amazed or even perplexed by the situation. Can Popes cast out Demons? Have any Popes done so in this century? Back to the core question. Jesus cast out literally thousands and also healed multitudes in a single day. Then we see almost nothing except for a few individual events in the rest of the new testament. Why?

Right. So many Christians don't know these things, but evil spirits are to be dealt with. Jesus did it, and we are to do so, too. He said so. I think most people still have too much a 'let Jesus do it' mind-set.
In the first century, demons knew who Jesus was, and they knew that Holy-Spirit empowered believers could cast them out, and most of them fled or hid in caves and in the rocks of the mountains, Rev. 6:15-16. They only started emerging again after the Church started to weaken and a 'star' in the Church, that had they keys to the bottomless pit (the authority to bind and loose), released them (Rev. 9:1-11), by turning over the Church's authority to the government in about the 4th century AD. This was an open denial of a believer's authority, a 'let someone else do it' way of thinking. The state re-instituted 'priests' into the church-state mix to 'deal with' those things. We all know that didn't work and the Dark Ages were upon us.

To cut to the point, in the last 100 years the church has been regaining its strength through the Holy Spirit's empowerment. But too many still don't want it or think they don't need it. They think Jesus will take care of demons and Satan when he comes, but theBible says, over and over again, the most repeated verse in the Bible, and it is summed up in Hebrews 10:12-13, "But when this priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies (and the church's enemies) to be made his footstool."

Demons are still around but they are not as numerous as they once were, but they aren't as few as they should be. It wasn't time for Jesus to send them to the pit when he was here. But after Jesus ascended it was time for the church to send them there, when we find them then all his enemies and our enemies will be under his and our feet, and Jesus can return.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

Interesting insights Ty. I noticed in Acts that the Apostles did, in fact, heal thousands and cast out many demons. But as the new testament moves from Testimonies into the epistles there is a huge decrease in the mention of Demons. So maybe that is simply reflective of Paul's written communication style. He may have been guided to avoid discussions in letters of things he could only do in person. I guess that then begs the question of why some denominations in existence today seem oblivious of Demons as demonstrated by the priests and pastors not recognizing them while others actively lay on hands and call out Demons.

[Binkster]

Demons and angels 'see' energetically, and our sin creates heavier vibrations in our souls allowing demons to influence us, just as love and compassion create openings through which angels can influence or touch us.

This is interesting. Im curious, where did you learn about how demons and angels 'see' humans?

And how do angels influence humans?

[Binkster]

Binkster,
You need to understand what being “possessed” means in Biblical terms. The meaning is to take possession. We take possession by manifesting demons such as hatred, jealousy, anger etc. in our actions. We can see these manifestations in people by what they confess and in their body language. Other demons can manifest in lies and are very subtle in the way they go about this. They do it in false religion even through Christian believers. Believers do not tell these lies deliberately that is why we are told to have our loins gird with truth and not use the Word of God out of context. We can all fall into this trap myself included. If we are using the Word of God out of context we are manifesting lying spirits.
One of these lying spirits have Christian believers believing they are filled with the Holy Spirit and are selling them short of the full Gospel message. Gods Word does not contradict it self. It is very easy to see these lying religious spirits.
This is not to point fingers at anyone because I was once there myself but to lead believers into the full Gospel message.

I do understand what it means in Biblical terms-those are the only terms it needs to be understood in.

So basically you think that every human is inhabited with a bunch of demons, because ALL of us sin EVERYDAY in some way or another?

[TyRockwell]

Interesting insights Ty. I noticed in Acts that the Apostles did, in fact, heal thousands and cast out many demons. But as the new testament moves from Testimonies into the epistles there is a huge decrease in the mention of Demons.

The doctrine of casting out demons didn't change, and nothing could be added to it, so there was no need to keep bringing it up. "You meet someone with a demon, you cast it out;" that's the doctrine, and it hasn't changed. What changed is the level of Holy Spirit anointing of power ON the believers. Too many Christians are satisfied with the indwelling Holy Spirit, and don't know or don't care that the Holy Spirit can be and should be ON them. That is what "anointed" means, it is like oil that is rubbed on and into a believer.

People will argue with that, but that is their problem. Jesus told his disciples the Holy Spirit was with them in John 14:16-17, but that He would soon be IN them.

16. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

Then, 43 days later, just before Jesus ascended into heaven he told the 500 disciples there with him to remain in Jerusalem and that in a few days he would send the promise of the Father to be upon them.

5. "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'' (He said this to believers who already had the Holy Spirit IN them. John 20:20-21)
6. Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?''
7. And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8. "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.''

So maybe that is simply reflective of Paul's written communication style. He may have been guided to avoid discussions in letters of things he could only do in person.

See the author of Hebrews 6:1-2
1. Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [when you turn away from dead works you turn to the Living and Powerful works of the Word and the Spirit's power.]
2. of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Verse 1 above tells us that it was an elementary principle of Christ to do Living foundational works of faith toward God.

Verse 2 tells us that these include baptisms, plural. The first baptism is water baptism to evidence that you have believed in the Lordship of Jesus, that he rose from the dead to save us. The second baptism is the baptism with the Holy Spirit, when the believer receives power with the Holy Spirit being ON them in addition to being IN them. With both those elementary and foundational baptisms the believer can then lay on hands with anointed power to do Living works such as casting out demons and raising the dead.

I guess that then begs the question of why some denominations in existence today seem oblivious of Demons as demonstrated by the priests and pastors not recognizing them while others actively lay on hands and call out Demons.

I highlighted "as demonstrated by the priests and pastors" because there is something there that should not be there, the word "priests." Every believer is to be a king and a priest unto God. Jesus gave (Eph 4:13) "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers." Notice that 'priests' are not in that list. That hierarchical office was to have ended with Judaism.
In the days leading up to the mixing of Church and state in the time of Constantine, the Judaisers in the church, who wanted the church to remain mainly Jewish, added back the role of 'priests.' This was done as a way of keeping the people subject to an authoritarian control. It was the doctrine of the Nicolaitans which Jesus said he hated in Rev. 2:6

6. "But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."


And in Rev. 2:15-16

15. "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16. `Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

When believers began to accept the hierarchical role of priests over them, they were abdicating their own responsibility to be kings and priests unto God and do Living and Powerful works of the Holy Spirit. They were adopting a "let someone else do it" mentality, giving away their own role to have authority over demons and sickness. BTW, the word "authority" means the exact same thing as the words, "power" and "dominion" in the New Testament.

They willingly made themselves subject to other men to do what they should have continued to do, and at the same time they were giving up their power and dominion over sickness and evil spirits. They only wanted the other blessings of salvation and 'eternal life after death' in heaven.
That way of thinking still pervades most of the church who see their role as only to save souls for eternity and promote moral disciplines and the fruit of the spirit, leaving out the gifts of the Spirit.

This is why so little of the Church knows anything about demons or laying on hands to cast them out and to heal the sick. The baptism with the Holy Spirit brings with Him a much greater anointing of the knowledge of the Son of God (Eph. 4:13); which includes spiritual matters of dominion, power and authority. Christians gave up their responsibilities when they handed off authority, and gave themselves permission to remain unknowing of these matters that lead to spiritual growth to maturity in The Anointed One (in Christ).

But we have been getting back on track to spiritual power, especially in the last 100 years. Thanks be to Jesus!

Peace and Truth,
Ty

[Vivian]

What you offer here, Ty, matches my own understanding, but to the idea that it was the hierarchy of Priesthood established by the Catholic Church that is responsible for taking the Power out of the hands of the people, I would add a couple of thoughts.

First, the followers of Christ within what is known as traditional Christianity have not taken back the Power and authority (or developed the spiritual maturity necessary for such gifts) that was given to or taken by the Catholic Church. Instead of using physical punishment to keep the Power out of the hands of the masses, the modern Church uses verbal and thought control under the guise of 'orthodoxy' to inhibit spiritual maturity. Typically, anyone who claims this Power or authority, or any gift of spiritual maturity, is considered a heretic - whether they have dreams and visions or other mystical revelations from God, or have the ability to cast out demons.

And since anyone demonstrating or claiming such Power and authority, or spiritual maturity, is deemed a heretic by the mainstream Church, and those who do develop to a certain level of maturity in their walk with Christ are forced to leave the mainstream Church. [Of course there are those who remain, but usually they are the ones who do not really have any Power or authority, they just claim they do. And in their staying, they justify the mainstream church in their attitudes and actions towards such things.]

Another thought is that while the false hierarchy of Priesthood still exists within the Catholic Church, this does not mean that the Priests or some of the Priests do not have any Power and authority.

They do. In fact scattered throughout the Catholic and Anglican traditions are Priests who have attained the level of spiritual maturity necessary to carry the Power and authority needed to heal and to cast out demons.

Whether or not the Pope himself has attained such maturity, I would venture varies from Pope to Pope - having the title of Pope does not give one any more Power and authority than another, but certainly there have been some Popes throughout history who have developed into the maturity that gifts a person with these abilities.

Again though, I have not seen this occurring within mainstream Christianity.


Shalom,

Viv

[FredFlanders]

I do understand what it means in Biblical terms-those are the only terms it needs to be understood in.

So basically you think that every human is inhabited with a bunch of demons, because ALL of us sin EVERYDAY in some way or another?

Yes that is correct. We all have demons we have to deal with and our behavior some times will show this. But we now have a something greater in us, the Holy Spirit with the signs following to cast them out. When you recognize them as demons (unclean spirits) they are easy to deal with and get rid of them.
As stated before Satan can only do his dirty work through us because God gave us dominion over the earth and not Satan. Satan will use every deception he can to try and work through us and we will not even know this. Some manifestation are simple such as anger and some more complicated and work through such things as governments, all types of religion including Christianity and people in authority such as teachers and parents. These are all done through people without their knowledge so we all need to be on the ball with God’s word.
Satan has us believing that manifestations like we see on the movies or in mental illness are the way he possesses people. They are just some manifestations but are harmless compared to what Satan does in deceit. But many with these manifestations take a lot of Spiritual work to cast out because the people who they work in usually have a number of holes in their past that need bandaging up and healing first and you can only work with people who are repentant to Christianity.

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

But many with these manifestations take a lot of Spiritual work to cast out because the people who they work in usually have a number of holes in their past that need bandaging up and healing first and you can only work with people who are repentant to Christianity.

Ty you have said much that I either agree with or can align with. However I am a bit confused by your assertion that "you can only work with people who are repentant to Christianity". The term "Christianity" is what throws me. Christianity is not a precise term. The apostles were first called "Christians" long before there was any established concept of Christianity except for their spreading the gospel. Let me explain a bit more. I have heard from an awful lot of preachers that healings fail because of the lack of faith of the one in need. This has always rung hollow to me simply because Jesus healed multitudes long before he conquered death. Those healed often were in a large throng surrounding him as he walked along. Many were there based on nothing more than word of mouth that a holy man was present. They had faith of many varying degrees and I'm certain some were skeptics. And to take it one step further the very raising of the dead certainly could not depend on any examination of their beliefs as held in a conscious mind. The power of the father needs no belief. Healing and casting out Demons is not within the capability of any individual but rather is the power of the father flowing through them.

My reason for pointing this out is my rejection of exaltation of individuals and creeds over other individuals and creeds. Take for example Jesus healing the sick servant of the Centurion. Yes Jesus complimented the Centurion for his faith but the sick servant is the one who was healed and the servant's beliefs were unexamined. Put very simply when the power of the father flows through anyone to heal or cast out demons no beliefs on the part of the diseased can prevent or hinder the father's power. It simply is not a limited power nor is it bound by creeds. I'm sure I must have misunderstood your point and I apologize if I misinterpreted.