Where are the demons today?

[Bernie]

Today I seldom hear of demons except in the movies. Surely they still exist and possess people. I doubt the possessed are all locked up under psychiatric care. Is there Scripture that says something somehow changed demons so that they can no longer possess people? I really would like to hear the thoughts of other Christians on the broad topic of demons. I would like to hear all parts of those verses put into the perspective of other new testament passages. Have demons changed and become more sophisticated so they no longer seem as obvious when they inhabit a human body and take it over?

I don't think demons are more sophisticated: we rarely hear of them today because society has become too "sophisticated" to recognize and/or admit that possession in different forms are all around us today. Some doctors and nurses murder babies in women's wombs, then take the afternoon off to golf. Some people fly airplanes into buildings, others strap bombs to men, women's and children's bodies so they can walk into public places to kill and maim others. Hundreds of millions of dollars are spent annually around the world on pharmaceuticals to treat the effects of possession....causes are spiritual, but effects are manifested in the material realm. Addicts to everything from sniffing gasoline to heroin and crack are in every city and most small towns. Those who most imitate the actions of the demonized in Scripture are seen througout our major cities today...they're called the homeless.

[Vivian]

Hi Eeset and all!

If I might offer one view of belief or faith that might just shed some light on the relationship between healing and faith...

When we believe or have faith in a person - especially a Master who has a strong and focused will, we are in essence aligning our will with theirs. Meaning that our desire and their desire are now in sync.

We both have focused our longing and desire for the same outcome.

This creates or invokes a Power or Force that can transform or change, thus opening the way for a Master to act through the interjection of his or her will to heal or to cast out a demon. [For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.]

To put it bluntly, God cannot work against our desires. He can only work in us or through us when our will is aligned with his. And so lack of faith or belief can be an obstacle, actually a barrier, keeping out the Master's interjection of focused will.

With the story of the Centurion...

From Matthew:

5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6
7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”
8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

From Luke:

1 Now when He concluded all His sayings in the hearing of the people, He entered Capernaum. 2 And a certain centurion’s servant, who was dear to him, was sick and ready to die. 3 So when he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to Him, pleading with Him to come and heal his servant. 4 And when they came to Jesus, they begged Him earnestly, saying that the one for whom He should do this was deserving, 5 “for he loves our nation, and has built us a synagogue.”
6 Then Jesus went with them. And when He was already not far from the house, the centurion sent friends to Him, saying to Him, “Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof. 7 Therefore I did not even think myself worthy to come to You. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
9 When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turned around and said to the crowd that followed Him, “I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!” 10 And those who were sent, returning to the house, found the servant well who had been sick.

In Matthew, we see that before the Centurion expressed his faith, Jesus had planned to go to the servant. Only afterwords was the servant healed from a distance, Jesus declaring to all that it was the Centurion's great faith that made this possible.

And then in Luke, the Centurion compares Jesus' authority with the authority he has over his men - he having the same faith in Jesus' authority/power/ability to heal as he does in his authority/power/ability to control his men. Jesus then praised him for his great faith and was then able to heal the servant from a distance.

So either Jesus is misleading us, or it was the Centurion's faith in Jesus' Authority and Power that made the healing of his servant possible.

What we can learn is that others can be influenced or even healed by our faith and trust in God's Power and Authority working in this world. Just imagine what would happen if all Christians believed and trusted that God could heal and save all of humanity!

Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.


Shalom and Blessings.

Viv

[FredFlanders]

Ty you have said much that I either agree with or can align with. However I am a bit confused by your assertion that "you can only work with people who are repentant to Christianity". The term "Christianity" is what throws me. Christianity is not a precise term. The apostles were first called "Christians" long before there was any established concept of Christianity except for their spreading the gospel. Let me explain a bit more. I have heard from an awful lot of preachers that healings fail because of the lack of faith of the one in need. This has always rung hollow to me simply because Jesus healed multitudes long before he conquered death. Those healed often were in a large throng surrounding him as he walked along. Many were there based on nothing more than word of mouth that a holy man was present. They had faith of many varying degrees and I'm certain some were skeptics. And to take it one step further the very raising of the dead certainly could not depend on any examination of their beliefs as held in a conscious mind. The power of the father needs no belief. Healing and casting out Demons is not within the capability of any individual but rather is the power of the father flowing through them.

My reason for pointing this out is my rejection of exaltation of individuals and creeds over other individuals and creeds. Take for example Jesus healing the sick servant of the Centurion. Yes Jesus complimented the Centurion for his faith but the sick servant is the one who was healed and the servant's beliefs were unexamined. Put very simply when the power of the father flows through anyone to heal or cast out demons no beliefs on the part of the diseased can prevent or hinder the father's power. It simply is not a limited power nor is it bound by creeds. I'm sure I must have misunderstood your point and I apologize if I misinterpreted.

Re 90

We can see through scripture and testimony today that we can heal a third party without their direct knowledge. There are occurrences in heaven we cannot see with our natural eye but do take place through prayer. But the point being that the healing would be of no effect if the healed individual did not come to Jesus and give the glory to Him and then continue in the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Many sickness/demons have a point of entry through sin. Unless the individual is repentant to God for the sin the point of entry for the sickness/demon still remains and the demon/sickness will return and in many cases bringing more demons with them. So unless they turn to Christ deliverance will be of no effect.
eg. We have a young lady who has been verbally physically abused by a parent and the other parent has left home and never shows any guidance and attention to their daughter. The daughter grows disillusioned, bitter with her parents and behaves in a similar fashion, angry, violent and now taking drugs as a way of escape. Anger, violence and drugs are all demonic spirits. But the first step in healing would be her forgiveness to her parents and this can only come through the power of Christ to her as Christ first forgave us. When we know this then we can show the same love to others who have offended us. Unforgivingness can be a major point of entry for demons and would be one of the first steps to healing and deliverance from the other unclean spirits.
Fear and traumatic events are other major point of entry. Idolatry and divination are other forms of demon activity that can cause mental and physical sickness. If unclean spirits are not dealt with and we continue in unrepentance then we attract other more stronger spirits. Some people are so messed up because they have sought non Christian help and gathered more demonic spirits. Demons will also manifest through individuals to scare you away.
Every case is different so we take each case step by step as we seek Christ for wisdom.
One of the biggest obstacles will be dealing with other Christian and associates who do not believe in demons in Christians but we all have them to deal with demons in our own lives.

Fred.

[carelinks]

Hi all
I'm one of those Bible students who doesn't think demons or Satan exist in a personal form. Obviously I'm going against the tide of your positions but I hope you can bear with me with the respect I also grant to you all.

Below's a summary of my take re demons. I don't expect it to persuade you nor do I in that sense seek to convert you from your worldview to mine, but I submit it as food for thought, ground for reflection.

My wider take on the whole matter is at www.realdevil.info but maybe the below is a summary on the specific demons issue.
God be with you all

Duncan

In 1 Corinthians, Paul explains why Christians should have nothing to do with idol worship or believing in such things. In Bible times people believed demons to be little gods who could be worshipped to stop problems coming into their lives. They therefore made models of demons, which were the same as idols, and worshipped them. This explains why Paul uses the words “demon” and “idol” interchangeably in his letter:

“The things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with demons...if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake...” (1 Cor.10: 20 & 28). So idols and demons are effectively the same. Notice how Paul says they sacrificed “to demons (idols) and not to God” - the demons were not God, and as there is only one God, it follows that demons have no real power at all, they are not gods. The point is really driven home in 1 Corinthians 8: 4:

“As concerning...those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol (equivalent to a demon) is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one”. An idol or a demon, has no existence at all. There is only one true God, or power, in the world. Paul goes on (vs. 5-6):

“For though there be that are called gods...(as there be gods many and lords many, [like people believe in many types of demon today - one demon causing you to lose your job, another causing your wife to leave you, etc.]) But, to us (the true believers) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things (both good and bad, as we have seen from earlier references)”.
Corinthian Idolatry

Further proof that people in the New Testament believed demons to be idols or ‘gods’ is found in Acts 17: 16-18; this describes how Paul preached in Athens, which was a “city wholly given to idolatry”, therefore worshipping many different idols. After hearing Paul preach the Gospel, the people said, “He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange (i.e. new) demons: because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection”. So the people thought the “Jesus” and “the resurrection” were new demons or idols that were being explained to them. If you read the rest of the chapter, you will see how Paul goes on to teach the truth to these people and in v. 22 he says, “Ye are too superstitious” (literally; devoted to demon worship) and he explains how God is not present in their demons, or idols. Remember that God is the only source of power. If He is not in demons, then demons do not have any power because there is no other source of power in this universe - i.e. they do not exist.
Old Testament Demons Were Idols

Going back to the Old Testament, there is more proof that “demons” are the same as idols. Psalm 106: 36-39 describes the errors of Israel and likens the idols of Canaan to demons:

“They (Israel) served their idols; which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and daughters unto demons, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan...Thus they were defiled with their own works, and went a whoring after their own inventions”.

Quite clearly demons are just another name for idols. Their worship of demons is described by God as worshipping their “own works...their own inventions” because their belief in demons was a result of human imagination; the idols they created were their “own works”. So those who believe in demons today are believing in things which have been imagined by men, the creation of men, rather than what God has taught us.

Deuteronomy 32:15-24 describes just how angry God gets when His people believe in demons: Israel “lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. They provoked Him to jealously with strange gods, with abominations provoked they Him to anger. They sacrificed unto demons, not to God; to gods whom they knew not...whom your fathers feared not...And He (God) said, I will hide My face from them...for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. They have moved Me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their vanities...I will heap mischiefs upon them”.

So God describes demons as the same as idols, abominations, and vanities - things which are vain to believe in, which have no existence. Believing in demons shows a lack of faith in God. It is not easy to have faith that God provides everything, both good and bad, in life. It is easier to think that the bad things come from someone else, because once we say they come from God, then we need to have faith that God will take them away or that they are going to be beneficial to us ultimately.
New Testament Demons

But, you may say, “How about all the passages in the New Testament which clearly speak about demons?”

One thing we must get clear: the Bible cannot contradict itself, it is the Word of Almighty God. If we are clearly told that God brings our problems and that He is the source of all power, then the Bible cannot also tell us that demons - little gods in opposition to God - bring these things on us. It seems significant that the word “demons” only occurs four times in the Old Testament and always describes idol worship, but it occurs many times in the Gospel records. We suggest this is because at the time the Gospels were written, it was the language of the day (1) to say that any disease that could not be understood was the fault of demons. If demons really do exist and are responsible for our illnesses and problems, then we would read more about them in the Old Testament. But we do not read about them at all in this context there.

Interestingly, we aren’t unique in having come to this understanding of demons. Consider the words of a well known theologian, Joachim Jeremias: “Illnesses of all kinds were attributed to demons, especially the different forms of mental illnesses…we shall understand the extent of this fear of demons better if we note that the absence of enclosed mental hospitals meant that illnesses of this kind came much more before the public eye than they do in our world…There is therefore nothing surprising in the fact that the gospels, too, portray mental illness as being possessed by demons. They speak in the language and conceptuality of their time”(2).

Bullinger has some interesting comments upon the woman with an unclean “spirit of infirmity” (Lk. 13:11) that resulted in her being unable to lift herself up straight. “The negative is me, not ou; and is therefore subjective. She felt as if she could not do so…it appears, therefore, to have been a nervous disorder; and had to do with her pneuma” or mind (3). And yet she is described as having been 'bound by satan’. The ‘satan’ or adversary to her standing upright was her own mindset. And it was this spirit or mindset “of infirmity” from which the Lord released her. Here we clearly see the connection between ‘spirits’ and mental disorder or dysfunction; for ‘spirit’ in Scripture so often refers to the psychological mindset of a person.

Finally, let's note that demons are never described in the Bible as trying to tempt people or corrupt them; demons in the sense of demon possessed people often express faith in Christ. This is in sharp contrast to the assumption commonly made that demons are fallen angels intent on tempting people to sin- in Pentecostal churches we hear of a shopping demon, a smoking demon, a speeding demon, etc. But this simply isn't how 'demons' are referred to in the New Testament. The Bible speaks of demons as being the idols which had been built to represent them; and it is stressed that these idols and the demons supposedly behind them don't exist. And therefore "be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil", nor have they any capacity to in fact do anything (Jer. 10:3-6; Ps. 115:2-9).
Conclusions:

1. The supremacy of God means that the common concept of demons simply cannot be correct.

2. Both Old and New Testaments indicate that “demons” were idols, who have no real existence or power outside the imagination of men.

[Vivian]

Hi all
I'm one of those Bible students who doesn't think demons or Satan exist in a personal form. Obviously I'm going against the tide of your positions but I hope you can bear with me with the respect I also grant to you all.

Below's a summary of my take re demons. I don't expect it to persuade you nor do I in that sense seek to convert you from your worldview to mine, but I submit it as food for thought, ground for reflection.

My wider take on the whole matter is at www.realdevil.info but maybe the below is a summary on the specific demons issue.
God be with you all

Duncan

Hi Duncan!

Welcome to the thread, and you have presented some well-thought out interesting points.

Just to share a bit about myself, I too am under the understanding that God is sovereign. All things that occur then are according to his design and plan - all things therefore are within God, even all our ideas and opinions about him and his creation!

And so I offer that everyone is right - all of their opinions and ideas are true. Problems arise though when we hold up our limited idea to the exclusion of all others, holding them up as the only truth, excluding all other ideas - as opposed to integrating the apparent opposing ideas, and understanding that all the little ideas and thoughts we have about God are just shards or pieces of a grand total picture, which our limited minds can in no means fully comprehend.

For me this is an idol - a shard or single idea held up as the only true idea about God.

And so I agree with what you are sharing, especially what you call The Implications - which seem, at least to me, to be the driving force behind your ideas.

For example, in Some Practical Implications, you talk about the battle for our minds and not blaming others. I would offer that perhaps you saw the fruit of other ideas, where we were given cause to blame others (Satan/demons) and not take responsibility for our own sin, and from that fruit realized that the ideas they flowed from were faulty, or limited. Perhaps this is not what happened with you, but it is the technique that I use when I evaluate ideas and thoughts - what is the fruit of this idea? Will is work towards our salvation - conforming us into the image of Christ? Or is it an obstacle to the labor to which we are called?

Blame and not taking responsibility are indeed a major obstacles in the transformation of humanity, and so I agree that the standard ideas on Satan, the Devil, or evil need to be expanded.

In reading through your thoughts, Duncan, a couple of questions came to mind, If you addressed these already, please forgive me, and direct me to the link.

For one, what do you make of Jesus' interactions with Satan and demons? In the Gospels, it is recorded that he speaks to them, and they answer back!

And so I would ask what you make of the temptations of Christ?

And also what do you make of the stories of Jesus' casting out of demons, speaking to them, and once it is even recorded that he commanded them not to speak?

If these things have no unique form outside of Jesus himself, then why did he act and speak as though they did? And also, why did he never in any of his interactions or teachings, allude to their actual non-existence?

And if the logic of your conclusion is founded on the premise that God is sovereign, so such things as demons and Satan cannot exist, what about people who behave Satanically or demonically? For I think of demons as being just like people who function against God's will, except they do not have physical bodies. So if incarnate humans functioning in sin, or against God's will, can exist in God's sovereignty, can't the dis-carnate functioning in sin or against God's will also exist?

I agree with you, Duncan, that the typical understanding of the devil and demons is a bit myopic, and needs expanding, but if all we do is take the flip side, or the exact opposite view, then our understanding is just as myopic and limited.

I look forward to hearing from you.


Shalom.

Viv

[barnasha]

It does not matter what we call ourselves - Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Muslim - what matters is the abundance of our heart. If it is sin, then the sin will leave openings for demons and their negative influence, but if our heart is filled with love and compassion, then the openings will invoke angels and the transforming divine Grace of God.

I hope everyone here gets a chance to read this statement.

[Binkster]

I hope everyone here gets a chance to read this statement.

Originally posted by Vivian
It does not matter what we call ourselves - Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Muslim

It may not matter what we call ourselves, but it matters what we are

Originally posted by Vivian
- what matters is the abundance of our heart. If it is sin, then the sin will leave openings for demons and their negative influence, but if our heart is filled with love and compassion, then the openings will invoke angels and the transforming divine Grace of God.

No the openings won't invoke angels. Angels do not have any influence over human lives.
You're correct that sin leaves openings for demons...Im glad some one else in here understands the difference between a sin and a demon!

Either way, sin, or love, is not what gets some one to heaven, it is only a reflection of the relationship they have with Jesus. So, really, its not what matters...

[barnasha]

Angels do not have any influence over human lives.

Why not? God is all powerful and angels are unflinching servants of It. They are an abstraction of the ways in which God acts upon Its creation.

You're correct that sin leaves openings for demons...Im glad some one else in here understands the difference between a sin and a demon!

Either way, sin, or love, is not what gets some one to heaven, it is only a reflection of the relationship they have with Jesus. So, really, its not what matters...

No, if your relationship with Jesus does not cause you to be a good person, it is moot, isn't it?

I am not Jesus.

[Vivian]

Hi Binkster!

Please accept my apologies for not responding to your previous post asking this.

I just plain missed it.

Originally posted by Vivian
It does not matter what we call ourselves - Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Atheist, Muslim

It may not matter what we call ourselves, but it matters what we are

Originally posted by Vivian
- what matters is the abundance of our heart. If it is sin, then the sin will leave openings for demons and their negative influence, but if our heart is filled with love and compassion, then the openings will invoke angels and the transforming divine Grace of God.

No the openings won't invoke angels. Angels do not have any influence over human lives.
You're correct that sin leaves openings for demons...Im glad some one else in here understands the difference between a sin and a demon!

Either way, sin, or love, is not what gets some one to heaven, it is only a reflection of the relationship they have with Jesus. So, really, its not what matters...

Ha! The angels with me would sometimes agree with you!

But I am sure you do not want to hear about my experiences with angels. You are just going by your understanding of scripture, yes?

Perhaps you have never done a study on angels, or what an angel is Biblically, but if we take at look at the Old Testament, we see that angels are very busy influencing humanity, in fact, it is through angels, incarnate and discarnate, that God interacts, guides, and helps us - angels being the spiritual beings or forces and energies that exist in the 'spaces' between the Father and his physical creation.

Just take a look at my avatar!

A search for angel in the Bible will turn up many interesting things. A couple that come to mind are:

It is through an angel that God tells Abraham to not sacrifice Issac. (Genesis 22:9-18)

It is through an angel that YHWH appears to Moses. (Exodus 3: 1-2)

It is an angel who guides the children of Israel through the wilderness. (Exodus 23:20-21)

I offer, Binkster, that angels still operate in this world in the same fashion, it is just that humanity's eyes and hearts have, for the most part, grown cold to them, no longer seeing and hearing them as the figures of the Bible did, or when they do, not giving credit to them for the guidance and protection they deliver, but taking credit themselves, or attributing things to luck.

There are many who know Christ in the world, who are being transformed by Christ, but have never and would never step into a Christian church, nor would they call the Christ they know 'Jesus'. Just as there are many in the world who claim that Jesus is Lord, but they do not know the living,ansforming, Power of Christ.

Another interesting study is the Hebrew meaning of 'Name'. Name, in Hebrew, does not simply refer to what someone is called, but what someone is. When someone comes in the Name of God, for example, this does not mean they are called the same name as God, but that they come bearing his Power and Authority.

Hence it is the Power and Authority of Christ that saves, that redeems, that transforms, not the name 'Jesus'. Although the name Yeshua - the actual name of the son of Mary - symbolically represents this Power and Authority. [Yeshua is YHWH with the letter shin added, and hence has enormous symbolic meaning. But the son of Mary is not the only one given this same symbolic name. Joshua in the OT is actually Yeshua as well.]

Shalom.

Viv

[barnasha]

The hebrew word that we turn into "angel" means messenger. Therefore, when you see the word 'angel' you may replace it with the word 'messenger' - to some extent.

Angels are not just messengers but we can see them as unfailing servants or executors of the will of That Which Is Divine, that is, an abstraction of the execution of divine will itself.

[Binkster]

Hi Binkster!

Please accept my apologies for not responding to your previous post asking this.

I just plain missed it.



Ha! The angels with me would sometimes agree with you!

But I am sure you do not want to hear about my experiences with angels. You are just going by your understanding of scripture, yes?

Perhaps you have never done a study on angels, or what an angel is Biblically, but if we take at look at the Old Testament, we see that angels are very busy influencing humanity, in fact, it is through angels, incarnate and discarnate, that God interacts, guides, and helps us - angels being the spiritual beings or forces and energies that exist in the 'spaces' between the Father and his physical creation.

Just take a look at my avatar!

A search for angel in the Bible will turn up many interesting things. A couple that come to mind are:

It is through an angel that God tells Abraham to not sacrifice Issac. (Genesis 22:9-18)

It is through an angel that YHWH appears to Moses. (Exodus 3: 1-2)

It is an angel who guides the children of Israel through the wilderness. (Exodus 23:20-21)

I offer, Binkster, that angels still operate in this world in the same fashion, it is just that humanity's eyes and hearts have, for the most part, grown cold to them, no longer seeing and hearing them as the figures of the Bible did, or when they do, not giving credit to them for the guidance and protection they deliver, but taking credit themselves, or attributing things to luck.

There are many who know Christ in the world, who are being transformed by Christ, but have never and would never step into a Christian church, nor would they call the Christ they know 'Jesus'. Just as there are many in the world who claim that Jesus is Lord, but they do not know the living,ansforming, Power of Christ.

Another interesting study is the Hebrew meaning of 'Name'. Name, in Hebrew, does not simply refer to what someone is called, but what someone is. When someone comes in the Name of God, for example, this does not mean they are called the same name as God, but that they come bearing his Power and Authority.

Hence it is the Power and Authority of Christ that saves, that redeems, that transforms, not the name 'Jesus'. Although the name Yeshua - the actual name of the son of Mary - symbolically represents this Power and Authority. [Yeshua is YHWH with the letter shin added, and hence has enormous symbolic meaning. But the son of Mary is not the only one given this same symbolic name. Joshua in the OT is actually Yeshua as well.]

Shalom.

Viv

I do agree that angels are still very present and active in todays world. But angels are messengers, they do not influence, they follow out a message...

And I beg to differ on a large note that people do not give enough credit to angels. First of all, angels deserve no credit. Second, people praise angles for things far too often and don't know, or don't understand that it is God who really protects us, not angels. "My guardian angel must have been with me, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc" No, it was God that really protected them.

But, this really isn't the topic of this thread.

[Binkster]

Why not? God is all powerful and angels are unflinching servants of It. They are an abstraction of the ways in which God acts upon Its creation.



No, if your relationship with Jesus does not cause you to be a good person, it is moot, isn't it?

I am not Jesus.

I may have just understood you incorrectly, I dunno, but I think you misunderstood what I said.

I was saying that a relationship with Jesus causes one to be a better person. The "good things" the person does, are a reflection of their relationship with Jesus.

[Vivian]

I do agree that angels are still very present and active in todays world. But angels are messengers, they do not influence, they follow out a message...

And I beg to differ on a large note that people do not give enough credit to angels. First of all, angels deserve no credit. Second, people praise angles for things far too often and don't know, or don't understand that it is God who really protects us, not angels. "My guardian angel must have been with me, blah, blah, blah, etc, etc" No, it was God that really protected them.

But, this really isn't the topic of this thread.

Interesting thought...hmm.

Angels deliver messages.

How do you think demons influence us? I offer that they too are delivering messages.

We are influenced based on whose messages we follow.

I may be a bit different here, but I consider all divine messengers to be 'of God'. And all demonic messengers to be 'of Satan'. Angels and demons do not wear hats identifying themselves, though. The only way we can know who is who or what is what is by the message itself. By how it feels to us.

[Check what influence felt right and good to Peter here: (Matthew 16:21-23)]

And I tell you that those who follow demons do not say, "I chose to follow the demon!" We choose to follow that which resonates with us, that which feels right to our heart. (Just like Peter did above.) This is where the openings come in, meaning what voices or feelings or urgings will we hear and follow?

It depends on our own heart. Which points back to our own healing and transformation, or Christ within us, so that it will be the angels of God that we hear and follow.

And so those who follow demons or antichrist spirits and influences, ideas, opinions, etc, do not know that this is what they are following. They are only following that which feels right and good to them.

Which is why healing and transformation in Christ is essential - to close the openings in us to the demonic influences and open our eyes and ears to angelic.

[A side note is that we can always tell what is influencing the person more, angels or demons, based on the abundance or state of their hearts.]


Shalom.

Viv

[barnasha]

Vivian, that reminds me of the image of a man, who has a devil and an angel sitting on each shoulder

[Eeset-Shadowgrl]

How do you think demons influence us? I offer that they too are delivering messages.

We are influenced based on whose messages we follow.

Viv

I had originally started this thread in the Christianity forum not to exclude non orthodox Tweb members but rather to focus it on what could be gleaned from Scripture. In Matthew and Mark we read of Jesus casting out demons and I would like to focus for a bit on Mark Chapter 5.

Jesus is met as he disembarks from a boat by a wild man. The possessed person challenges Jesus and Jesus asks his name to which he gets the response "we are legion". The multitude of demons possessing that single man then beg to not be cast "out of the country" but rather to at least be allowed to enter a nearby herd of swine. Jesus consents and then the demons enter the herd only to have the entire herd of more than 2,000 pigs run off a cliff into the sea.

There are several points I would like to make about that passage.

First the plea not to be cast out of the country is, to me, a misunderstanding of what had been asked by the demons. I say that the plea was to not be cast from an incarnate state inhabiting or rather co-habiting a human body. That is why the plea was to be allowed at least into the swine which was in itself a mistake. Pigs do not have the same capacities as humans and demons entering into animals cause the animals to go beserk which is exactly what happened. The pigs running off the cliff immediately then did result in the demons becoming once again disincarnate. That, in turn, meant they could no longer interact directly in the world of materiality until they could find another suseptible human.

Now if you have ever been around animals you will realize that a herd of over 2,000 pigs is no small herd. When the townfolks heard of this and came to investigate they chased Jesus off immediately. I guess you might say they suddenly developed a great fear of God. In today's slang the perceived consequences of having Jesus hang around and "fix" more problems must have scared the blazes out of them. It was like "hey man you've done enough for one afternoon so please leave because we really don't want to see what comes next".

Angels do the will of God and therefore have no desire to enter or co-habitate human bodies. Demons, on the other hand, do seek opportunities to co-habitate and express through possession. Why? Well because they are minions of Satan and that is the desire he has given them. I don't pretend to know Satan's logic in the whole process although I have to believe it is all part of the battle he carries on against the will of God.

So this gets us back to the basic question I had asked. There are many recorded events in the Gospels where Jesus cast out thousands of demons while also healing multitudes of sicknesses and infirmities. Moving forward into Acts and then into the Epistles the activities of the Apostles pales by comparison. And then progressing through history to the 21st century it seems the vast majority of priests and holy people have not the slightest ability to even recognize demons. I think the Scripture supports the concept that demons know who can see and recognize them. I doubt demons have decresed in number. They must still be legion but largely unrecognized. I am not in any way providing excuses or asserting that demons should be blamed for human failings. In fact I claim that no sin can be caused by demons but they can and do co-habitate human bodies and I think people weakened by sin are easier targets.

Furthermore I think people get confused by the concept of God, gods and the world of spirit. God is the creator of all. Can Satan spawn or create minions? Satan was/is an Angel and a creation of God. I say yes Satan can create lesser spirits but they are certainly not gods. Now it gets interesting because I am also not only flesh but spirit. God created my soul. Does the commandment not say to worship God with all my mind, heart and soul? In humans those 3 things are tightly bound together. All three must exist together or human life ceases. Death is the point in time when my spirit or soul becomes disincarnate. Now you probably see why I said it gets interesting. Contrast for a moment soul (or spirit) with spirits (or demons) and the take those thoughts back to the point in time when a human is born and mind, body (heart) and soul (spirit) are united. How do you understand or fit those pieces into a coherent picture?