Knowing for sure one is going to heaven

[Obsidian]

One Bad Pig, do you believe that if a demon turned from all his sins and lived a life of good works he would be saved? That is not biblical. Whether a demon believes, lives a good life, worships God, whatever, makes no difference to his eternal fate. Therefore, using Luke 4 to disprove salvation by faith makes no sense.

[One Bad Pig]

One Bad Pig, do you believe that if a demon turned from all his sins and lived a life of good works he would be saved? That is not biblical.

Did you even read my last post?

Whether a demon believes, lives a good life, worships God, whatever, makes no difference to his eternal fate. Therefore, using Luke 4 to disprove salvation by faith makes no sense.

James is the one who brought up the belief of demons in the context of faith. Was James making no sense in 2:19? Are you even trying to follow my argument?

[Obsidian]

I've read everything you've been writing. I haven't seen you make much of an argument. As best I can tell, your position seems to be that since the demons believe and wind up in eternal torment, therefore belief does not save humans either.

You stated the following, which implies that you think demons could get to heaven if they would just do some good works to add to their faith.

Further, per Luke 4:41, demons also believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Does this belief save them, unlike the other one? I don't think so.

[One Bad Pig]

I've read everything you've been writing.

Then why did you bother asking a question I'd already answered in the negative?

I haven't seen you make much of an argument.

*shrug* Chrawnus got my point, as did Teallaura.

As best I can tell, your position seems to be that since the demons believe and wind up in eternal torment, therefore belief does not save humans either.

Would you rather I disagree with James?

You stated the following, which implies that you think demons could get to heaven if they would just do some good works to add to their faith.

No, it does not. Try dealing with my statement from within the context it was made.

[Teallaura]

Hint: belief in existence of God =/= faith in God. Faith is our trust that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will - His existence is a given.

[thewriteranon]

Hint: belief in existence of God =/= faith in God. Faith is our trust that God is Who He says He is and will do what He says He will - His existence is a given.

[37818]

And those whose names are not blotted out according to promise (Revelation 3:5)are the ones who could know that they have eternal life (1 John 5;1, 4, 5, 9-13).

Does not the promise at the very least imply that it is possible to have one's name blotted out if one fails to overcome? Is it possible in your opinion to have one's name written in the book of life but not know one has eternal life?

I believe everyones names are in the book of life until they are blotted out.

What the promise teaches is those who "overcome" by having faith in Christ (1 John 5:1, 4, 5.) will not have their names blotted out. There are 7 promises written regarding those who are the ones who have faith in Christ and so overcomes this world.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." -- Revelation 2:11.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." -- Revelation 21:7.

Those who do not overcome are those who do not have faith in God's Christ alone. They are trusting in their dead works.

[Obsidian]

I believe everyones names are in the book of life until they are blotted out.

The rest of your post could easily be true even if this point is not. I agree with the rest of your post. What is the purpose of this belief -- just to reconcile your soteriology with the KJV of Revelation 22:18-19?

[37818]

The rest of your post could easily be true even if this point is not. I agree with the rest of your post. What is the purpose of this belief -- just to reconcile your soteriology with the KJV of Revelation 22:18-19?

The prerequisite is receiving the kingdom of God as a child. (Luke 18:17, 18. John 3:3.) Christ dead for everyone (1 John 2:2), so everyone's name would be in the book of life. The reason names are removed is being of age and not being saved. The names can be removed any time between coming of age (compare Isaiah 7:16) and death (Psalm 69:27, 28). So children who are not of age to shoose Christ, their names remain in the book of life, since Christ died for them too.

[One Bad Pig]

I believe everyones names are in the book of life until they are blotted out.

[from a subsequent post]

The prerequisite is receiving the kingdom of God as a child. (Luke 18:17, 18. John 3:3.) Christ dead for everyone (1 John 2:2), so everyone's name would be in the book of life. The reason names are removed is being of age and not being saved. The names can be removed any time between coming of age (compare Isaiah 7:16) and death (Psalm 69:27, 28). So children who are not of age to shoose Christ, their names remain in the book of life, since Christ died for them too.

I was only able to find one passage on how names are written:

Source: Mal. 3:16 NKVJ

Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name.

© Copyright Original Source

[back to the original post]

What the promise teaches is those who "overcome" by having faith in Christ (1 John 5:1, 4, 5.) will not have their names blotted out.

Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses pass that test. Are they saved?

There are 7 promises written regarding those who are the ones who have faith in Christ and so overcomes this world.

What are those?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." -- Revelation 2:11.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." -- Revelation 21:7.

Can those who are under the age of accountability have faith in Christ and overcome?

Those who do not overcome are those who do not have faith in God's Christ alone. They are trusting in their dead works.

Hold on a minute. You were just using 1 John 5:1,4-5 as the litmus test for salvation. Now you're adding in other criteria. You can't have things both ways. Further,

Source: James 2:14-20

¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ¹⁵ If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? ¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. ¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

© Copyright Original Source

James says that faith without works is dead (three times, even - he repeats in in v. 26). Is he mistaken? It's no wonder that the champion of "Faith alone" (Martin Luther) wanted to throw the book out.

[Obsidian]

Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses pass that test. Are they saved?

LDS and Jehovah's witnesses believe in works salvation, same as the Orthodox Church.

Hold on a minute. You were just using 1 John 5:1,4-5 as the litmus test for salvation. Now you're adding in other criteria.

1 John 5:11 clarifies what the record is that needs to be believed. The record includes the fact that salvation is eternal (implying it is not contingent on future works), that it is a gift (implying that it is not contingent on past works) and that it comes from the Son of God (implying that it is based on Jesus's works).

I'm not gonna defend his comments about the book of life, however, because I am not sure whether I even agree.

[37818]

[from a subsequent post]

I was only able to find one passage on how names are written:

Source: Mal. 3:16 NKVJ

Then those who feared the Lord spoke to one another, And the Lord listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him For those who fear the Lord And who meditate on His name.

© Copyright Original Source

So are you equate the book of remembrance with the book of life?

There is another reference of being written, ". . . Thy eyes did see my imperfect being, and in thy book all shall be written: days shall be formed, and no one in them. . . ." -- Psalm 139:16. I do not know if this refers to the book of life.

Now following may refer to the book of life, but again it does not say this: ". . . rejoice in this, that your names are written in heaven." -- Luke 20:10.

The first reference I believe of the book of life is because of Moses' request to have his name removed if God does not forgive the people of Israel, " . . . strike me out of the book that thou hast written." -- Exodus 32:32.

[back to the original post]

What the promise teaches is those who "overcome" by having faith in Christ (1 John 5:1, 4, 5.) will not have their names blotted out.

Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses pass that test. Are they saved?

No, they do not. It is not a test, it is the requirement to believe in God's Christ. LDS deny God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same God. LDS view of the trinity is tritheism. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus is Jehovah (Isaiah 43:11, Acts 4:12, Acts 10:43). When I offered to them to explain 1 John 5:1, those Jehovah's Witnesses stipulated "Everyone" refers to only the 144,000, but not to them.

Believing Jesus is the Christ, is not in a mere title, but who He is (2 John 9).

There are 7 promises written regarding those who are the ones who have faith in Christ and so overcomes this world.

What are those?

1.- "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh I will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of my God." -- Revelation 2:7.
2.- "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome shall not be hurt by the second death." -- Revelation 2:11.
3.- "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him that overcometh I will give the hidden manna and will give him a white counter: and in the counter, a new name written, which no man knoweth but he that receiveth it." -- Revelation 2:17.
4.- "And he that shall overcome and keep my words unto the end, I will give him power over the nations. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and as the vessel of a potter they shall be broken: As I also have received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. " -- Revelation 2:26-29.
5.- "He that shall overcome shall thus be clothed in white garments: and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. And I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches." -- Revelation 3:5, 6.
6.- "He that shall overcome, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God: and he shall go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches." -- Revelation 3:12, 13.
7.- " To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches." -- Revelation 3:21, 22.

And the eight reference,
"He that shall overcome shall possess these things. And I will be his God: and he shall be my son." -- Revelation 21:7.

Can those who are under the age of accountability have faith in Christ and overcome?

They without faith in Christ already meet the requirement of being children. For they are for whom Christ died. The kingdom of God was prepared for them. ". . . But Jesus, calling them together, said: Allow children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God." -- Luke 18:16.

Those who do not overcome are those who do not have faith in God's Christ alone. They are trusting in their dead works.

Hold on a minute. You were just using 1 John 5:1,4-5 as the litmus test for salvation.

It is not a test. It is what is needed to meet the requirement (John 3:3). Those who trust in their works are not trusting in God's Christ according to God's will.
"Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." -- Matthew 7:21.

Those who do not overcome are those who do not have faith in God's Christ alone. They are trusting in their dead works.

. . . Now you're adding in other criteria. You can't have things both ways.

It is not two ways, it is only the one way.
" Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name?" -- Matthew 7:22. Notice they are trusting in their works.
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity." -- Matthew 7:23.
They never were really Christ's followers.

. . . Further,

Source: James 2:14-20

¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ¹⁵ If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? ¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. ¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

© Copyright Original Source

James says that faith without works is dead (three times, even - he repeats in in v. 26). Is he mistaken? It's no wonder that the champion of "Faith alone" (Martin Luther) wanted to throw the book out.

It is my understanding that works that count, follow those who are saved. Abraham whose work is given as an example. His work took place and followed years after (Genesis 22:1-17) Abraham was counted righteous (Genesis 15:6).

The purpose of works is to follow salvation. Not to obtain salvation.
"For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God. Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10.

". . . with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will." -- Philppians 2:12. 13. Salvation is a possession.

[Obsidian]

LDS deny God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same God. LDS view of the trinity is tritheism. The Jehovah's Witnesses deny Jesus is Jehovah (Isaiah 43:11, Acts 4:12, Acts 10:43).

Why even get to that complicated issue? Is there a single church in all existence that teaches salvation by faith alone, yet denies the Trinity? True faith in Jesus as Savior is the real issue. Yet look at how (seemingly) all the churches which deny the Trinity also teach works salvation.

[37818]

Why even get to that complicated issue? Is there a single church in all existence that teaches salvation by faith alone, yet denies the Trinity? True faith in Jesus as Savior is the real issue. Yet look at how (seemingly) all the churches which deny the Trinity also teach works salvation.

Yes, that is the evidence. But even so, affirmation of teaching the Trinity (One God, three Persons) does not assure that salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is being taught. One can have the trinity explanation right and still have the wrong Christ.

The issue was being made that LDS and JW believe in Christ (1 John 5:1). They have the wrong Christ. Or may we say they have the wrong understanding of whom Christ is and what Christ fully accomplished.

[Obsidian]

Saying they have the "wrong Christ" is a subjective, dubious assertion. They get some things wrong about Christ. Does that make him the wrong one? Who knows. The point is that they don't believe on him, so it doesn't matter whether he's the right one or the wrong one.