Originally posted by KingsGambit
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and Christians. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining “Christian” or "orthodox" for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
Additionally and rarely, there may be some topics or lines of discussion that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine (in general Christian circles or in the TheologyWeb community) or that deny certain core values that are the Christian convictions of forum leadership that may be more appropriately placed within Unorthodox Theology 201. NO personal offense should be taken by such discretionary decision for none is intended. While inerrancy is NOT considered a requirement for posting in this section, a general respect for the Bible text and a respect for the inerrantist position of others is requested.
The Tweb rules apply here like they do everywhere at Tweb, if you haven't read them, now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Knowing for sure one is going to heaven
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostWhat in the text makes you think that this verse is dealing with perserverance?????
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostWe've discussed it previously, on the old board. Surely the prospect of a connection is not that much of a head-scratcher, even if you ultimately discount the connection.
Every 'verse' needs to be read in light of its surrounding context. And in the context of John 2, I am still confused at where John is referring to perserverance or even salvation...
IMO, this verse has more to do with those like Charles Taze Russell than it does with salvation.
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostIMO, this verse has more to do with those like Charles Taze Russell than it does with salvation."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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For what it's worth:
@Bad Pig
James 2 is not talking about how to get to heaven, the subject of this thread. It is explicitly talking about how to be judged righteous by the law.
James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Further, your concept that salvation is largely meaningless and insecure until it is complete (at death), is rebutted by the multitude of verses that declare eternal life a present possession, teach that we have already been glorified in the past-tense, teach that Christians are seated in heaven, teach that Christians will never hunger or thirst again after taking one serving of food/water, etc. Your view is incorrect.
@Sean
Matthew 24 is explicitly talking about being killed, hated, and deceived. It is not talking about getting to heaven either.
Matthew 24
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
@Remonstrant
1 Peter 1 does not state that we have to continue believing. It just says that faith is required (at some point). Your interpretation -- that we have to keep ourselves by continuing to believe -- would make the phrase "kept by the power of God" essentially meaningless.
Further, although it isn't needed to accept my theology (and none of the versions seems to translate it this way), I wonder if the word "faith" there might actually be referring to God's faithfulness.
@KingsGambit
So does this interpretation mean that God simply did not keep people who initially profess faith but walk away?
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIt is a matter of, again, interpretation. Emphasis to be noted.
Salvation is a current possession. "For by grace you have been saved, . . ." -- Ephesians 2:8.
NKJV And "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." v.10
And the works James gave an example of (Genesis 22:) took place years later after the cited promise (Genesis 15:6).Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostFor what it's worth:
@Bad Pig
James 2 is not talking about how to get to heaven, the subject of this thread. It is explicitly talking about how to be judged righteous by the law.
James 2
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
The two passages are separated by a single verse.
Further, your concept that salvation is largely meaningless and insecure until it is complete (at death), is rebutted by the multitude of verses that declare eternal life a present possession, teach that we have already been glorified in the past-tense, teach that Christians are seated in heaven, teach that Christians will never hunger or thirst again after taking one serving of food/water, etc. Your view is incorrect.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostI must agree. The two choices are not mutually exclusive, and the issue of having eternal life (which is what the answers address) is different from the issue of knowing whether you have it (which is what the question asks about).
Here is an interesting quote from Arminius in his Declaration of Sentiments (1608):
With regard to the certainty [or assurance] of salvation, my opinion is, that it is possible for him who believes in Jesus Christ to be certain and persuaded, and, if his heart condemn him not, he is now in reality assured, that he is a son of God, and stands in the grace of Jesus Christ. Such a certainty is wrought in the mind, as well by the action of the Holy Spirit inwardly actuating the believer and by the fruits of faith, as from his own conscience, and the testimony of God’s Spirit witnessing together with his conscience. I also believe, that it is possible for such a person, with an assured confidence in the grace of God and his mercy in Christ, to depart out of this life, and to appear before the throne of grace, without any anxious fear or terrific dread: and yet this person should constantly pray, "O lord, enter not into judgment with thy servant!"
But, since "God is greater than our hearts, and knoweth all things," and since a man judges not his own self—yea, though a man know nothing by himself, yet is he not thereby justified, but he who judgeth him is the Lord, (1 John iii. 19; 1 Cor. iv. 3,) I dare not [on this account] place this assurance [or certainty] on an equality with that by which we know there is a God, and that Christ is the saviour of the world. Yet it will be proper to make the extent of the boundaries of this assurance, a subject of inquiry in our convention. [Emphasis added]1
Note
1 http://www.godrules.net/library/arminius/arminius12.htmFor Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostSo now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostThis would appear to say that in effect, only those who were truly in Christ persevered. (And I have posted elsewhere that I personally find this to be the single most difficult verse [1 John 2:19 for Arminianism.)
I can appreciate your attempting to seriously grapple with a verse you perceive to be in some way out of alignment with Arminian thought, but I honestly do not share your reservations. I have previously explained in some depth why I believe 1 John 2:19 comports better with Arminianism than Calvinism, so I will not revisit the issue here. The crux of the matter is this: theological method. If you have one or two texts which seem to throw a monkey wrench in your overall understanding of Scripture, by all means wrestle with the one or two texts and do not ignore them. But in the end, it must come down to a cumulative case. In my judgement, a cumulative case for the doctrine of necessary perseverance/infallible divine preservation in the New Testament is nowhere to be found (i.e., non-existent). I simply do not understand how or why 1 John 2:19 should pose such an insurmountable problem for you. E.g., would you allow Revelation 20:10 to throw your understanding of final punishment as annihilation into complete disarray? I'm inclined to think not. That would be ridiculous, and at an intuitive level I believe you understand this. Your understanding of Scripture will be completely schizophrenic if you do not at some point seek to synthesize or harmonize the evidence (and I am saying this as one who has certain reservations as to how systematic theology may be misused or abused).1
Lastly, I commend the following excellent "counter-points" volume to you (if you haven't read it already): Four Views on the Warning Passages in Hebrews, ed. Herbert W. Bateman IV (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 2007).2 I trust you'll discover Gareth L. Cockerill and Grant R. Osborne's essays to be most faithful to the biblical text. That said, I will say no more on this topic on this thread.
Notes
1 I tend to find James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries to be a prime example of a recent theologian who almost invariably seeks to resolve any and all scriptural tensions or uneasiness by employing his infallible Reformed-Calvinistic systematic theological grid to come to the rescue.
2 http://www.amazon.com/Four-Views-War.../dp/0825421322Last edited by The Remonstrant; 03-13-2014, 04:31 AM.For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostIf you aren't sure it's possible, then what makes you even suggest it? All the people who twist verses to teach that you can lose your "eternal" life also teach that it is possible to lose it accidentally, or through strong temptation.
This concept -- intentionally choosing to go to hell -- is basically just a philosophical idea that you thought up.Last edited by Leonhard; 03-13-2014, 07:22 AM.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostSo now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.
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Originally posted by Obsidian View PostSo now you admit that you believe we gain eternal life by law-keeping.Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom
Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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It should be noted that the sense that we 'earn' salvation isn't in the strict sense of getting paid for a job done. Whatever grace we get is completely up to God and is undeserved. However its also true that without demonstrating certain works, at the very least a contrite heart, we can't enter Heaven. All the things necessary for these things are given as a grace to us, but God doesn't force us to do it, he just makes it possible for us to attain if we want to.Last edited by Leonhard; 03-13-2014, 09:47 AM.
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