OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Evidential Problem of Evil by Jin Roh

[Drewski]

Shawn, your beliefs would imply that God has predestined some men to hell. Just because God knows the choice that we will make doesn't mean that he ordained it to happen. Man must have free will in order to love as God loves. Love is an act of the will or it simply isn't love. The greater your ability for holiness, than the greater your ability for evil. A cow can be no more evil then it can be holy, but a man is a different story and an Angel even more. God created Lucifer as the angel of light and the highest of all Seraphim's. There's an interesting Franciscan theory, which may or may not be true, but makes sense and either way shows my point. They believe that that the book of Revelation isn't just about things to come, but things that have already past. God revealed in an instant his plans for humanity to the angels, and seeing the woman clothed in the sun with the moon under her feet, pregnant with God himself, Lucifer announced that he would not serve and fell like lightning from the sky taking a third of the Angels with him. Michael stood up for God, by saying, "who is like unto God?" Which is what his name means. This is why the greatest virtue against the devil is humility. When we empty ourselves we allow God to fill us with himself. God is love, light and goodness and to have free will is to have the ability to reject his goodness and that rejection is evil, the absence of good. The greatest evil we could ever do is diocide, creation killing its creator, but God took our evil and brought about the greatest good. This was foreshadowed in the desert when Moses was told to put a Seraph serpant on a staff. The serpant was the greatest symbol of evil, but the people where told to look upon the serpant and they would survive there bites. He did not say that they would not be bitten, just that they would live. Likewise, if we look upon a crucifix we see the means to redemption. God did not end our suffering and death, he gave new meaning, redemptive power to our suffering and death. Suffering and death where a result of the evil that we chose and now they can be a means to our salvation. This is the parodox that Simeon spoke of at the temple. Even after all this we still need to accept God's grace and allow it to transform our lives in order to be saved. The sermon on the mount is Jesus' clarion call to transformation. "Blessed are the pure for they shall see the face of God."

[ShawnPSmith]

Hi Drewski, thanks for your thoughts. My beliefs do not imply that God predestines some for hell. Rather, your interpretation of my beliefs calls for a hell to exist, and God to predestine men for it. I don't believe the hell of the church is found in the Scripture, so I don't believe God sends anyone there. Your arguments kinda cancel themselves: we commit deicide, we sin, but God provided for our sin before we ever existed. He knew it was going to happen. He is not the 'Allower', He is the Creator -- again, see Is. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It is difficult to wrestle with the problem of good and evil when one believes in the unScriptural zero-sum game of eternal torment. I have been studying the issues involved for some while now, and I can tell you that eternal torment or annihilation are not Scriptural teachings. They can appear to be, but some minor study of Greek and Hebrew, and even a clear study in English about the saving work of Christ shows the truth of the salvation of all men:

1 Cor. 15

20 "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. "

1 Tim. 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Evil is much easier to understand and bear when seen in its proper place as a tool God uses to mature His offspring.

[tomsawyer25]

Tom

"My reason for repeatedly asking you for positive beliefs, is that you are demanding a certain level of proof for Biblical belief. I believe that if you look at your own, you will find an abundance of beliefs which are held without absolute proof. They are held because of faith plus evidence. I believe that if you recognize this in yourself, you may not be so quick to call Christain belief irrational."

To the best of my knowledge, I have no "belief" that I hold on "faith". Just as you are atheistic - you lack belief in - Allah, Odin, Loki, Buddha and so on, I lack belief in all those gods, plus yours. Just one more than you!

"My own belief that God cares for us yesterday and today and tomorrow is based on various things, one of the most basic is simply that God is Creator, has formed us, has provided for us, and has done this for thousands of years. I also see that God's word in the Bible includes messages that are essentially for our benefit, including God's wilingness to have us return despite our sin."

You believe that your God cares for us because he created us and provides for us. But fundamentally, I don't believe he exists, so the creation and care and providing and so on are really kind of moot. To me, you might as well be saying that there is a little invisible genie that lives in a bottle in your room who does all these things: I would have the same difficulty accepting these statements if you attributed them to the little genie.

As to viewing the bible as anything more than a series of myths, folktales and letters of questionable authorship, I simply cannot. The old testament describes a violent, angry god and the new testament was cobbled together from a much larger collection of "books" which were whittled down to what we see today. It essentially wasn't settled until the 4th century and not even finally "finalized" as canon until the 17th century.

"I find it confounding that so many people who have received countless blessings wish to deny God's goodness and care for us."

I find it confounding that somebody needs to attribute what simply happens to an invisible bearded man in the sky. Some of what happens to us is beneficial, some is not. Why aren't you blaming god for when something bad happens to us?


As to comparing Christianity to other religions, consider this: your Christianity is most probably the accidental outcome of the country in which you were born and the parents who raised you.

Cheers
Rob

Hi Rob,

My purpose in bringing up your positive beliefs is not to say you don't hold negative ones, but simply to point out that you must necessarily believe something else, even if only on the practical level. I am unclear on this idea of having no beliefs at all unless one is entirely unknowing on a subject.

For example, I know that when I did not conscientiously believe in God, I felt, though not always clearly, that whatever is out there, it couldn't really matter too much. I also felt that as long as we aren't really really evil, our behavior doesn't matter too much. Hence though I didn't believe in God, I certainly held beliefs. Those are both positive beliefs. Thus I naturally think you must hold positive ones as well, regarding God, or our possible relationship to Him, or the good.

I would suggest to you that you have numerous beliefs that you take one faith. In fact when you claim that the NT wasn't agreed upon until the 17th century, you heard something false, and then took it on faith. If you say it is inconsequential to know God, that is taken on faith as well. Almost all beliefs are related to faith, as we see some evidence, learn from some authority, and at some point choose to believe. This must be true of Rob also.

Clarification: You say that "fundamentally I don't believe he exists". You mean God as presented in the Bible, is that correct? Or are you stating another general opinion on a creator?

A comparison with belief in mythologic creatures is really an unfair one. God has been self-evident to human beings through creation itself for ages and still is today. Mythological creatures are not self-evident. The revelation in the Bible can not be re-witness on the historical level, but a very good amount of it can be confirmed from other sources, and its spiritual truths are consistent, reasonable and can even be experienced. For example, the transformation that goes along with faith is not in the realm of the fairie tale. We can experience that and even witness it in others. The effects of prayer is not a mere claim either, but something one can experience personally. If you think I mislead you, please check it out for yourself.

Despite your pointed words, God's love for humanity is there throughout the Bible, and if indeed God were truly cruel, I am not sure what God would be doing working to redeem humanity. God is working for our redemption from nearly the moment after the Fall. As far as violence, Rob, this is something we have chosen for ourselves. We chose rebellion, we chose murder. God as shown in the Bible has given us enormous chances to return to Him. God as desribed in the Bible, even suffered for those who waged war against Him. I highly doubt that either you or I are as forgiving as the God of the Bible.

Your attacks on the cannon of the New Testament are really unfounded, and I hope you'd check up on those things before you repeat them. The New Testament was agreed upon as a cannon within several centuries, and most of that time most of the books were already agreed upon, just not yet oficially. Even from a purely historical perspective, it is amazing to have the Gospel accounts, produced so near to the events which they describe. The letters, also on the purely historical level, give incalculable insight into the early congregations. Not only that, but some great examples of diatribe.

Although I appreciate that you have read the Bible before, I'm going to hazard a guess and suggest that some of the enormously negative attitudes and innacurate beliefs you communicate here were there as you read. Is that correct? Because it doesn't do much to study the Bible with that attitude and with those falsehoods. If you are really are not sure, simply read with the attitude of -- maybe this is true and maybe it isn't. Or to see it on another level -- is God's truth communicated here?

I am unsure on who believes in a "bearded man in the sky", although perhaps if you go into antiquity you might find some who do. That's probably just one of the comments it's best to ignore.

Why do I not blame God for something bad that happens? That's a good question. Fundamentally, I do not blame God because I know that God is good. I am in no position to judge God or what he allows to happen. God is the ultimate authority, and even my ability to find that experience unpleasant, and to want something different, was itself given by God. My desire to experience the good, rather than the evil, itself was given by God. So what precisely should I blame God for? For giving us freewill? For our own choice to sin? For the ability to suffer?

So to ask the natural question back: why do you not praise God for all the good that you have? Not just the pure pleasures, but even the existence and even the desire for the good. Why don't you praise Him for all those things?

I fully respect open-minded questioning of what I believe to be God's word to us, though unfortunately a portion of your statements are merely broad-based attacks. I hope that you can express precisely what the difficulties you see there are. I am happy to talk about any of them. If you really do not know how God could care about the world we live in, please explain why that presents a problem for you.

By the way, have you ever prayed Rob?

Hope you're doing well.

Tom

[tomsawyer25]

Shawn, I'm going to have to disagree with your understanding and interpretation of evil.
In Genesis everything that God created he said was Good. Evil is the absence of good, in the sameway that darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat. If evil is understood in this context then it can never be "created". It would be nonsense to take the literal interpretation of Is 45:7 and believe that God created darkness, since it is the absence of light.
There are two aspects to God's will, his ordaining will and his permissive will. All things exist only because God wills them. God permits man to do evil and turn away from him because God ordained man to hava a free will and permits man to choose evil over good. The deeper lesson of Genesis is that man "grasped" at knowing what is good and what is evil, rather than allowing God to give him this knowledge as a gift. The antithesis of this can be found in Philippians 2:5-8;
"Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
Our choice to reject God's plan brought evil and death into the world. It caused a great rupture, so to speak. Man from God, man from nature, man from woman, and body from soul. God didn't create these evils, but he permitted them to happen and with all evil he permits it to happen to bring about a greater good.
In Eccl 1:13; "It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."
God permits evil to happen to bring about the greater good of humility. Jesus, who is God, permitted man to torchure and kill him to bring about the greater good of redemption. Man tends to do the opposite, we choose a lesser good over a greater good. Pleasure is a good given from God, but when we choose to use others for our own pleasure we choose to do evil. We turn our backs on God and push his "light" from our hearts.

Right on.

[ShawnPSmith]

Tomsawyer & Drewski, how can you reconcile the alleged free will of man to choose Christ -- aside from the fact that the Scripture nowhere says men must call Christ their savior in order to be saved, and can't be saved if they don't do so -- in light of these Scriptures:

Rom. 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph. 1:11 In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Phil. 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I Cor. 4:7 Why, who gives you your superiority, my brother? Or what have you that you did not receive? And if you really did receive it, why boast as if this were not so?

There are many more such verses, but let's just cut to Paul, chief sinner. He was Saul, he made havoc of the church, consented to Stephen's stoning -- and was converted AGAINST HIS OWN WILL IN ONE SECOND FLAT by Christ on the road to Damascus. No free-will, here, no consent. Paul accepted Christ AFTER Christ saved Saul, NOT BEFORE.

Take a few deep breaths . . .

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 20:24 The LORD is the one who directs a person's steps. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Romans 9:16 Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

[Drewski]

ShawnPSmith, this may be better to debate on a new thread, but reconciling free will with Divine providence and predestination is a mystery that may not be revealed until the day we're in heaven beholding the beatific vision, although many a theologian has tried.
It is true that some are predestined for heaven. Mary the mother of God would be a perfect example, but even she had to give her fiat, "May it be done unto me, according to your word" (Luke 1:38) freely. Did God know how she would answer?.... of course, but it was still her free choice.
We simply would not love if we weren't given the free will to choose. Love, at its very essence, is an act of the will. We don't have control over the environment around us, but we do have a choice on how we act.
Saul could have freely walked away from God, after being knocked off his horse, blind and bitter if he freely chose, but God knew in advance the choice Saul would make.
In the book of Matthew Jesus says; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." (Matthew 7:21)
In the book of John Jesus says: "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil."
Also in 1 Peter : "Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil" (1 Peter 2:16) and also : "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) and last: "Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position." (2 Peter 3:17) which shows that we are capable in our free will to turn our backs on Jesus and fall from grace.

[ShawnPSmith]

Drewski, I truly appreciate your thoughtful, mature discussion of the issue with me, rather than allowing the discussion to descend into juvenile catcalling. However, I disagree with your perspective on the issue. I find that men do more to try and reconcile the Scripture to their own preconceptions about heaven/hell/salvation/free will, than they do to discover what the Scripture really says. I'd leave you with this: God's ways are greater than ours, much of what we believe is based on human tradition not Scripture, and the alleged distinction of free will being necessary for love is open to debate -- whereas there is no debating that the affirmation of man's free will utterly denies the Sovereignty of God. Thank you, Shawn --

[tomsawyer25]

Tomsawyer & Drewski, how can you reconcile the alleged free will of man to choose Christ -- aside from the fact that the Scripture nowhere says men must call Christ their savior in order to be saved, and can't be saved if they don't do so -- in light of these Scriptures:

Rom. 8:28-30 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph. 1:11 In him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

Phil. 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

I Cor. 4:7 Why, who gives you your superiority, my brother? Or what have you that you did not receive? And if you really did receive it, why boast as if this were not so?

There are many more such verses, but let's just cut to Paul, chief sinner. He was Saul, he made havoc of the church, consented to Stephen's stoning -- and was converted AGAINST HIS OWN WILL IN ONE SECOND FLAT by Christ on the road to Damascus. No free-will, here, no consent. Paul accepted Christ AFTER Christ saved Saul, NOT BEFORE.

Take a few deep breaths . . .

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 20:24 The LORD is the one who directs a person's steps. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Romans 9:16 Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

Hi there,

That's a really good question to bring up: God's election vs. freewill. However first, I want to mention that your letter contains some innacuracies in the questions themselves. You say that Scripture in no place says that we must call on Christ to be saved. However the New Testament affirms multiple times the saving power of Christ's name, and in a more general sense, of faith itself by God's grace.

Romans 10:1-13 powerfully states the saving nature of belief and profession.

John 1:12-13 also talks about the same thing.

John 6:29 -- "The work of God is to believe on the one he has sent."

Galatians 2:11-21 is another passage communicating our salvation in our faith in Jesus

Calling on the name of Jesus is a saving act.

The necessity of something more than our attempted obedience is there in the Tenach (OT) as well. The need for a life for life atonement is stated as clearly as possible. Israel is commanded to make numerous sacrifices at the tabernacle and temple despite the fact that this is hardly in the category of "ethical" behavior. Doing these sacrifices is naturally founded on a trust in God, on a trust that these are commands of God and even a trust in their atoning nature. Would Israel have done them if not for this faith?

Furthermore, the importance of faith which transcends our individual observances is communicated in the Tenach multiple times. This is why the NT frquently brings up moments in Israel's history such as the blood of the Passover lamb, the bronze serpent, the faith of the two good spies and Israel's belief in the bad report of the other ten spies.

These moments are very applicable to faith in Jesus as they show how at times belief itself is like a form of obedience, and how deliverence, or lack of deliverance comes from these acts. Believe, and put the blood of the lamb over your lintel, and you are delivered. Gaze on the bronze serpent and you are healed. Believe in the false report of the spies, and you fail to come into your rest in Israel. Only the two trusting spies (Joshua and Caleb) entered the land among all who had been born in Egypt. Why? Faith.

Though we are taught many practices on how to live our lives and how to honor God, faith has always been at the root of it.

Freewill

In discussing Paul, you say he was converted "against his will". Again, I believe this phrase is incorrect. It is obvious that God acted in a powerful way with Paul, but how can we truly say that his walk with God was "aginst his will"? Afterall, and this ties into the whole question of freewill vs. election, God calls us to be obedient over and over, including in the NT. Doesn't this presuppose freewill? If this presupposes freewill, then we must not take passages which show God's power in our life and claim that they prove we have no freewill.

I believe you are actually affirming this when you say "Paul accepted Christ AFTER Christ saved Saul" Basically, I agree with you here. God's act was primary, Paul's choice of acceptance, faith and obedience came afterward. I see no difficulty. Rather I see this as the way things generally work.

In other words, when Scripture shows God acting on people, why assume that those people have no choice to accept or not accept? I can say that someone came and delivered a letter to my house, but don't I still have the choice to open it or not? To tear it up? To shoot the messenger? I hope you see the angle I am presenting.

If I say to you "God has been ordering my steps", am I also telling you that I have no choice or that God is controlling me completely? If I say "God has provided our food today" am I also denying the existance of farmers? So naturally I do not accept those passages you mention as a refutation of freewill.

When I see passages, whether in Scripture or from theologians, which talk about the power of God being what provides salvation, I do not suppose this necessarily means a lack of human choice at all. That grace to us is surely a pure gift, God has acted first, but we still must respond to that gift. He has provided it all. I have just sat at the table and eaten.

[Drewski]

ShawnPSmith, I agree with you that men do reconcile scripture to their on preconceived notions, but there in lies a new question. Who has the proper interpretation? I am Catholic and believe that when Christ said to his apostles "what you loose on Earth, will be loosed in Heaven, what you bind on Earth, will be bound in Heaven" he was giving them authority an authority that has been passed down through the years by the laying on of hands. There are over 30,000 protestant denominations, all with there version of the correct interpretation of Scripture and as you said it is very easy to justify and manipulate the meaning. It is the Church that guards the Truth. In 1 Timothy, Paul says, but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth." The question than is which Church would that be?

Regarding interpretation of free will, I find there are more Men who want to take responsibility out of there own hands by rejecting the idea of free will then those who believe we share in that responsibilty. I would invite you to look at Christ's encounter with the crippled man at the pool at Bethesda: "When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, 'Do you wish to get well?'" (John 5:6) I would also invite you to look at choices made by Peter verses Judas, both turned their backs on Our Lord, but Peter chose to repent and "wept bitterly". Judas believed that his sins where greater then God's mercy and fell into despair and hung himself. It would be very easy to excuse horrific things like abortion, suicide, and so much more if we disregarded our own free will and considered it all out of our hands. Grace is an act of Mercy from God and an oppurtunity to participate in the very life of the Trinity!! God pours out his Grace, but it's up to us to cooperate with that Grace.