On Neil Degrasse's "Cosmos" Remake

[CMD]

If you wanted to believe in another faith, then you shouldn't be doing it on land ruled over by Christians.

And if Christians in the middle-east want to believe in something other than Islam without fear of being tortured and killed, then they shouldn't be doing it on land ruled over by Muslims. It's really their own fault.

[fm93]

No, the World Court is not affiliated with the UN.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately being obtuse, but his point was that "ignorance" by definition is the same thing as "lack of knowledge."

[Darth Executor]

And if Christians in the middle-east want to believe in something other than Islam without fear of being tortured and killed, then they shouldn't be doing it on land ruled over by Muslims. It's really their own fault.

I agree. Thus the solution is to take formerly Christian lands back from them.

[TimelessTheist]

And if Christians in the middle-east want to believe in something other than Islam without fear of being tortured and killed, then they shouldn't be doing it on land ruled over by Muslims. It's really their own fault.

There's many things wrong with that statement. For one, the monarchies of Christendom didn't profess to be proprietors of religious freedom, like Egypt, and then turned around and started killing people with different religions, regardless of what their Constitution promises (Such as the Christians and Jews in Egypt). As for the torture, well, I'm not going to say whether it was justifiable or not, but what I will say is that they weren't doing it just to be unnecessarily cruel. They did it to extract confessions from people ,whom they already had evidence of their guilt, to get them to repent and save their eternal soul. It wasn't just some sneaky tactic to fulfill some sort of conviction quota, by gaining false confessions. It should also be noted that there was a strict limit on it. A single day of torture was all that was allowed under the rules of the Inquisition, after that, they couldn't do it again, ever.

[shunyadragon]

I'm not sure if you're deliberately being obtuse, but his point was that "ignorance" by definition is the same thing as "lack of knowledge."

You both missed the sarcasm, 'deliberately being obtuse.'.

[shunyadragon]

I agree. Thus the solution is to take formerly Christian lands back from them.

I smell the distinct odor of burning flesh, and the call for a new Crusade.

[shunyadragon]

There's many things wrong with that statement. For one, the monarchies of Christendom didn't profess to be proprietors of religious freedom, like Egypt, and then turned around and started killing people with different religions, regardless of what their Constitution promises (Such as the Christians and Jews in Egypt). As for the torture, well, I'm not going to say whether it was justifiable or not, but what I will say is that they weren't doing it just to be unnecessarily cruel. They did it to extract confessions from people ,whom they already had evidence of their guilt, to get them to repent and save their eternal soul. It wasn't just some sneaky tactic to fulfill some sort of conviction quota, by gaining false confessions. It should also be noted that there was a strict limit on it. A single day of torture was all that was allowed under the rules of the Inquisition, after that, they couldn't do it again, ever.

First, the only crime for the victims was that they were Jews, Muslims, and some Christians that did not share the belief of the Roman Church. The primary goal was forced conversion and repenting false doctrine and not punishment of real crimes. The Inquisition was unnecessarily cruel and barbaric, regardless of their intent.

[TimelessTheist]

First, the only crime for the victims was that they were Jews, Muslims, and some Christians that did not share the belief of the Roman Church. The primary goal was forced conversion and repenting false doctrine and not punishment of real crimes. The Inquisition was unnecessarily cruel and barbaric, regardless of their intent.

Well, they valued truth a lot more than we do today. If you wanted to voice your opposition to the Catholic Church, that was fine, but if you did indeed have a valid case against one of its doctrines or dogmas, the case needed to be carefully investigated and debated throughout the months, sometimes even years, by scholars and professionals. People like the heretics tried to just blow past this entire process, and teach their theories as truth without it being confirmed that it was indeed, true. Michael De Bay is an example of what happened if you questioned things the right way. He undermined Augustine's doctrine of grace to the point of it being Pelagian, and his teachings were condemned as such, afterwards, he admitted that he was wrong, and accepted the condemnation. Later than that, he tried to revise his teachings, and they were, again, condemned as Pelagian, and, once again, he say where he went wrong, and accepted the condemnation of his heretical teachings. So, what did the Inquisition do to him, you ask? Absolutely nothing. He was able to keep his professorship, and became to be known as an extremely well-renowned academic.

[TimelessTheist]

I smell the distinct odor of burning flesh, and the call for a new Crusade.

Save for the fact that Egypt, Palestine, Turkey, and pretty much all the land the Muslims own now, were taken by force, from the Christians. So yes, I would say the Crusades were justified, seeing as how they were trying to get back land that had already belonged to them in the first place.

[shunyadragon]

Save for the fact that Egypt, Palestine, Turkey, and pretty much all the land the Muslims own now, were taken by force, from the Christians. So yes, I would say the Crusades were justified, seeing as how they were trying to get back land that had already belonged to them in the first place.

I will not go into the 'justification' of the Christian crusades of the conquest of the region, but the devastating result, for example the murder of the entire population of Jerusalem of Jews, Christian and Muslim alike. and other atrocities like cannibalism in the Crusades.

The actual facts of the case are, prior to the Christian conquest of the Iberian peninsula the Jews , Christians, and Muslims lived in harmony under the tolerance of the Islamic rule, and the establishment of universities. . When the Christians conquered the region the rules changed the Inquisition and the military effectively attempted to , ethnically and religiously cleansed the region and the rest of Christian Europe. there was no prior justification of 'ownership' of the region unless you are going back to the conquest by Pagan Rome.

[TimelessTheist]

I will not go into the 'justification' of the Christian crusades of the conquest of the region, but the devastating result, for example the murder of the entire population of Jerusalem of Jews, Christian and Muslim alike. and other atrocities like cannibalism in the Crusades.

The massacre of the population of Jerusulem? Well, basically, if the population accepted to be ruled over after its forces were defeated, the Crusaders would, indeed, do that, even allowing them to continue practicing their religion. If they rebelled, well, then, the Crusaders would fight back, which is what happened here.

and other atrocities like cannibalism in the Crusades.

Oh my, taking things out of context, aren't we? First off, there was only one recorded instance of cannibalism in the Crusades. Secondly, it wasn't unjustified: Thanks to a famine, the Crusaders were on the verge of starving to death, so they cut meat off the buttocks of 'already dead' Muslim soldiers, and ate it. Seems much more justifiable than, say, that one recorded instance of Islamic soldiers, killing their commander and eating him to "gain his strength".

The actual facts of the case are, prior to the Christian conquest of the Iberian peninsula the Jews , Christians, and Muslims lived in harmony under the tolerance of the Islamic rule

...you're joking, right?

When the Christians conquered the region the rules changed the Inquisition and the military effectively attempted to , ethnically and religiously cleansed the region and the rest of Christian Europe

I don't even know what this sentence is supposed to mean. Which region? Religiously cleanse the region of Christian Europe? But Christian Europe was already, well, Christianized.

[shunyadragon]

The massacre of the population of Jerusulem? Well, basically, if the population accepted to be ruled over after its forces were defeated, the Crusaders would, indeed, do that, even allowing them to continue practicing their religion. If they rebelled, well, then, the Crusaders would fight back, which is what happened here.

Check you history here, the city was conquered, Christians, Jews and Muslims unarmed, including women and children were slaughtered. There was no record of rebellion at this time. Fortunately you cannot rewrite this history.

...you're joking, right?

No, historical fact!

The Nature of the Golden Age

Image of a cantor reading the Passover story in Al Andalus, from the 14th century Haggadah of Barcelona.
Having invaded the areas throughout Southern and Northern Spain, and coming to rule in a matter of seven years, Islamic rulers were confronted with many questions relating to the implementation of Islamic Rule on a non-Islamic society. The coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians during this time is revered by many writers. Al-Andalus was a key center of Jewish life during the early Middle Ages, producing important scholars and one of the most stable and wealthy Jewish communities and a relatively educated society for the Muslim occupiers and their Jewish collaborators, as well as some Christians who openly collaborated with the Muslims and Jews. María Rosa Menocal, a specialist in Iberian literature at Yale University claims that "Tolerance was an inherent aspect of Andalusian society".[1] Menocal's 2003 book, The Ornament of the World, argues that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in the Christian parts of Europe. Jews from other parts of Europe made their way to al-Andalus, where in parallel to Christian sects regarded as heretical by Catholic Europe, they were not just tolerated, but where opportunities to practise faith and trade were open without restriction save for the prohibitions on proselytisation. Bernard Lewis takes issue with this view, calling it ahistorical and exaggerated. He argues that Islam traditionally did not offer equality nor even pretended that it did, arguing that it would have been both a "theological as well as a logical absurdity."[2] However, also Lewis states:


Generally, the Jewish people were allowed to practice their religion and live according to the laws and scriptures of their community. Furthermore, the restrictions to which they were subject were social and symbolic rather than tangible and practical in character. That is to say, these regulations served to define the relationship between the two communities, and not to oppress the Jewish population.[2]

Jews were allowed certain freedoms but, like their Christian counterparts were prohibited from having administrative authority over Muslims except in a few cases.

Mark Cohen, Professor of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton University, in his Under Crescent and Cross, calls the idealized interfaith utopia a "myth" that was first promulgated by Jewish historians such as Heinrich Graetz in the 19th century as a rebuke to Christian countries for their treatment of Jews.[3] This myth was met with the "counter-myth" of the "neo-lachrymose conception of Jewish-Arab history" by Bat Yeor and others,[3] which also "cannot be maintained in the light of historical reality".[4]

Nothing was of course perfect before Christian conquest and equality was not considered for Jews and Christians, and there were conflicts, but a religious tolerance pervaded most of the time up until the Christian conquest, and then the Iberian peninsula was religiously cleansed by the Inquisition, and forced migration.

I don't even know what this sentence is supposed to mean. Which region? Religiously cleanse the region of Christian Europe? But Christian Europe was already, well, Christianized.

It meant exactly what it said!!!!

The Iberian peninsula was not effectively Christianized at the time, but it was achieved through the Inquisition, and the rest of Europe over time was the subject of persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews and Muslims through the whole history of Christian rule going back to the period of Christian Rome. If needed I will cite historical sources.

[TimelessTheist]

Check you history here, the city was conquered, Christians, Jews and Muslims unarmed, including women and children were slaughtered. There was no record of rebellion at this time. Fortunately you cannot rewrite this history.

Well, it's hard to say they didn't rebel, given that the Crusaders had to conquer it. You do know what "conquer" means, right? Anyway, this is merely an insignificant speck, when compared to all the horrifying atrocities that the Islamics preformed.

Nothing was of course perfect before Christian conquest and equality was not considered for Jews and Christians, and there were conflicts, but a religious tolerance pervaded most of the time up until the Christian conquest, and then the Iberian peninsula was religiously cleansed by the Inquisition, and forced migration.

What an absolute bunch of crap, although, what can you expect from Wikipedia? The Islamic conquest of Spain was a brutal massacre, and the Muslims ruling over it afterwards were brutal tyrants. Christian women, both noble and not, were raped in giant sex harems, and the queen of Spain was even forced to marry the Muslim commander who beheaded her husband. The persecution was so freaking bad, that Christians opted to take refuge in the surrounding wilderness, rather than live in the cities.

The Iberian peninsula was not effectively Christianized at the time, but it was achieved through the Inquisition, and the rest of Europe over time was the subject of persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews and Muslims through the whole history of Christian rule going back to the period of Christian Rome. If needed I will cite historical sources.

The Iberian peninsula was not effectively Christianized at the time, but it was achieved through the Inquisition, and the rest of Europe over time was the subject of persecution and ethnic cleansing of Jews and Muslims through the whole history of Christian rule going back to the period of Christian Rome. If needed I will cite historical sources.

You're....joking right? You're honestly trying to say that France and Spain weren't Christianized at the time the Muslims invaded them? Also, ethnic cleansing due to the Inquisition? If you actually knew any history, you would know that the Inquisitioners were actually the ones who tried to stand up and stop the lynching of Jews, as well as the witch burnings going on in Protestant tribunals.

Oh yeah, and Muslims, being persecuted in Christian Rome? That's funny, considering Islam didn't even exist until centuries after Rome became Christian.

[shunyadragon]

Well, it's hard to say they didn't rebel, given that the Crusaders had to conquer it. You do know what "conquer" means, right? Anyway, this is merely an insignificant speck, when compared to all the horrifying atrocities that the Islamics preformed.

Its not hard to say, if you disagree, provide references. When the Muslims retook the city they did not slaughter the Christians and Jews, and allowed them to leave.

What an absolute bunch of crap, although, what can you expect from Wikipedia? The Islamic conquest of Spain was a brutal massacre, and the Muslims ruling over it afterwards were brutal tyrants. Christian women, both noble and not, were raped in giant sex harems, and the queen of Spain was even forced to marry the Muslim commander who beheaded her husband. The persecution was so freaking bad, that Christians opted to take refuge in the surrounding wilderness, rather than live in the cities.

Provide references and not mindless rhetoric.

You're....joking right? You're honestly trying to say that France and Spain weren't Christianized at the time the Muslims invaded them? Also, ethnic cleansing due to the Inquisition? If you actually knew any history, you would know that the Inquisitioners were actually the ones who tried to stand up and stop the lynching of Jews, as well as the witch burnings going on in Protestant tribunals.

No not joking, provide references not mindless rhetoric if you believe it is wrong.

Oh yeah, and Muslims, being persecuted in Christian Rome? That's funny, considering Islam didn't even exist until centuries after Rome became Christian.

Needed a little more punctuation and separation. Jews and Christian minorities were religiously cleansed under Christian Rome. The Crusades and Inquisition made Muslims, Jews, and many Christians, and they slaughter everyone in Jerusulem.

[Darth Executor]

I smell the distinct odor of burning flesh, and the call for a new Crusade.

God wills it!