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On Neil Degrasse's "Cosmos" Remake

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  • #31
    Its not hard to say, if you disagree, provide references. When the Muslims retook the city they did not slaughter the Christians and Jews, and allowed them to leave.
    Wrong again, broh. Sultan Saladin's own, personal writings, showed that he originally planned to massacre the entire population, regardless of whether they resisted or not. He only later changed his mind and kept them alive, to ransom them off, in order to receive more money to finance his campaign. The ones that couldn't be payed for, he did not let leave either, he distributed them among the other Islamic nations, as slaves.

    Reference: Arab Historians of the Crusades. Translated by Francesco Gabrieli.

    Provide references and not mindless rhetoric.
    Bonus: This one's in video form!
    Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhlvJ7jyYBg

    No not joking, provide references not mindless rhetoric if you believe it is wrong.
    Provide a reference that France and Spain were not Christianized by the seventh century....which, seriously, I really doubt you can do.
    Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

    -Thomas Aquinas

    I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

    -Hernando Cortez

    What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

    -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
      Wrong again, broh. Sultan Saladin's own, personal writings, showed that he originally planned to massacre the entire population, regardless of whether they resisted or not. He only later changed his mind and kept them alive, to ransom them off, in order to receive more money to finance his campaign. The ones that couldn't be payed for, he did not let leave either, he distributed them among the other Islamic nations, as slaves.

      Reference: Arab Historians of the Crusades. Translated by Francesco Gabrieli.
      Your missing the point the Christians slaughtered the entire population of Jeruselum including ALL the Christians and the women and children. When the Muslims did not. That is a fact of history. Where is the reference about this supposed rebellion?
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
        Your missing the point the Christians slaughtered the entire population of Jeruselum including ALL the Christians and the women and children. When the Muslims did not. That is a fact of history. Where is the reference about this supposed rebellion?
        You're also missing the point that it was originally his plan to slaughter the entire population, whether they surrendered or not. Also....the Crusaders massacred the entire population? Uhhh, no, no they did not. They put the city to sack, that's not the same as eradicating the entire population. Many were killed in the sacking, sure, but others were ransomed, and some were even allowed to go free. Where are you getting this idea that the killed ALL the women and children?
        Last edited by TimelessTheist; 03-16-2014, 11:10 AM.
        Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

        -Thomas Aquinas

        I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

        -Hernando Cortez

        What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

        -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
          You're also missing the point that it was originally his plan to slaughter the entire population, whether they surrendered or not. Also....the Crusaders massacred the entire population? Uhhh, no, no they did not. They put the city to sack, that's not the same as eradicating the entire population. Many were killed in the sacking, sure, but others were ransomed, and some were even allowed to go free. Where are you getting this idea that the killed ALL the women and children?
          You need to be more specific with citations from a source.

          Originally posted by http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/jerusalem-captured-in-first-crusade
          During the First Crusade, Christian knights from Europe capture Jerusalem after seven weeks of siege and begin massacring the city's Muslim and Jewish population.

          Beginning in the 11th century, Christians in Jerusalem were increasingly persecuted by the city's Islamic rulers, especially when control of the holy city passed from the relatively tolerant Egyptians to the Seljuk Turks in 1071. Late in the century, Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comenus, also threatened by the Seljuk Turks, appealed to the West for aid. In 1095, Pope Urban II publicly called for a crusade to aid Eastern Christians and recover the holy lands. The response by Western Europeans was immediate.

          The first crusaders were actually undisciplined hordes of French and German peasants who met with little success. One group, known as the "People's Crusade," reached as far as Constantinople before being annihilated by the Turks. In 1096, the main crusading force, featuring some 4,000 mounted knights and 25,000 infantry, began to move east. Led by Raymond of Toulouse, Godfrey of Bouillon, Robert of Flanders, and Bohemond of Otranto, the army of Christian knights crossed into Asia Minor in 1097.

          In June, the crusaders captured the Turkish-held city of Nicaea and then defeated a massive army of Seljuk Turks at Dorylaeum. From there, they marched on to Antioch, located on the Orontes River below Mount Silpius, and began a difficult six-month siege during which they repulsed several attacks by Turkish relief armies. Finally, early in the morning of June 3, 1098, Bohemond persuaded a Turkish traitor to open Antioch's Bridge Gate, and the knights poured into the city. In an orgy of killing, the Christians massacred thousands of enemy soldiers and citizens, and all but the city's fortified citadel was taken. Later in the month, a large Turkish army arrived to attempt to regain the city, but they too were defeated, and the Antioch citadel surrendered to the Europeans.

          After resting and reorganizing for six months, the crusaders set off for their ultimate goal, Jerusalem. Their numbers were now reduced to some 1,200 cavalry and 12,000 foot soldiers. On June 7, 1099, the Christian army reached the holy city, and finding it heavily fortified, began building three enormous siege towers. By the night of July 13, the towers were complete, and the Christians began fighting their way across Jerusalem's walls. On July 14, Godfrey's men were the first to penetrate the defenses, and the Gate of Saint Stephen was opened. The rest of the knights and soldiers then poured in, the city was captured, and tens of thousands of its occupants were slaughtered.

          The crusaders had achieved their aims, and Jerusalem was in Christian hands, but an Egyptian army marched on the holy city a few weeks later to challenge their claim. The Egyptians' defeat by the outnumbered Christians in August ended Muslim resistance to the Europeans for the time being, and five small Christian states were set up in the region under the rule of the leaders of the crusade.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
            You need to be more specific with citations from a source.
            1) Using a citation from the same place that airs crap like "Ancient Aliens" is laughable.

            2) Thank you for proving exactly what I said. The city was sacked, and many were killed. However, they did not massacre the 'entire' population, nor was it the Crusader leaders' intention to do so.

            3) Why have you no response on any of your other stuff? Particularly the "Islamic Conquest of Spain was 'not' a horrifying atrocity, and the Islamic rulers of Spain were benevolent and tolerant" crap?
            Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

            -Thomas Aquinas

            I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

            -Hernando Cortez

            What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

            -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by TimelessTheist View Post
              1) Using a citation from the same place that airs crap like "Ancient Aliens" is laughable.

              2) Thank you for proving exactly what I said. The city was sacked, and many were killed. However, they did not massacre the 'entire' population, nor was it the Crusader leaders' intention to do so.

              3) Why have you no response on any of your other stuff? Particularly the "Islamic Conquest of Spain was 'not' a horrifying atrocity, and the Islamic rulers of Spain were benevolent and tolerant" crap?
              Spoken by someone who believes the inquisition is justified.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #37
                From Boise State University

                Originally posted by http://europeanhistory.boisestate.edu/crusades/1st/28.shtml

                The First Crusade

                Fall of Jerusalem

                There now began an orgy of killing. The Crusaders went on a rampage, killing everyone they met. They went into houses and dragged out the inhabitants to kill them. They stole everything they found. The princes lost all control.

                Muslim refugees had taken refuge in the Dome of the Rock, the mosque of al-Aqsa, the one Tancred had taken. Despite his banner flying above, on the morning of the 16th a group of Crusaders broke in and slaughtered everyone inside. Similarly, the Jews of the city fled to their synagogue, only to have the Crusaders set it on fire, killing everyone.

                The chroniclers tell of streets running with blood and of horses splashing blood up onto their riders' leggings. Order returned on 17 July not so much because the commanders regained control as there was simply no one left to kill. All the Jews of Jerusalem were dead. All the Muslims were dead. The Christians had been expelled before the siege began. The city was empty of all save its conquerors.

                The western sources are briskly uncontrite in their descriptions of the carnage, indicating that the chroniclers were no more dismayed than were the perpetrators. But the Muslim world would never forget or forgive the Crusaders' behavior. Jerusalem was a holy city to the Muslims as much as it was to the Christians. The looting of sacred shrines and the slaughter of innocents confirmed the general Muslim opinion that the Westerners were savage barbarians with no faith at all save in blood and wealth.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Another good academic source of the 'slaughter of the inhabitants of Jeruselum

                  http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2007/2007-1.pdf

                  go for it!!!
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DLAbaoaqu View Post
                    Bruno is going to become the next Alexandria Library myth, mark my words.
                    Its a holdover from the conflict myth which will take a great deal of effort to weed out.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Cosmos didn't do well in the ratings
                      ABC Resurrection ... 10.80 million viewers
                      FOX Cosmos ... 4.91 million viewers
                      NBC Believe ... 6.51 million viewers
                      CBS The Good Wife ... 8.38 million viewers
                      Last edited by rogue06; 03-18-2014, 12:44 AM.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Damn Vatican.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Its a holdover from the conflict myth which will take a great deal of effort to weed out.
                          Explain the 'conflict myth.'
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Cosmos didn't do well in the ratings
                            ABC Resurrection ... 10.80 million viewers
                            FOX Cosmos ... 4.91 million viewers
                            NBC Believe ... 6.51 million viewers
                            CBS The Good Wife ... 8.38 million viewers
                            I am one of the 4.91 million. Except for a few inaccuracies the program is well done. Unfortunately the numbed and dumbed down audience with a low interest and priority for understanding science hobbles the program. It does not help that a large percentage of the audience does not believe in science.

                            They would have been better off citing Leucretius and not Bruno for being the first to propose many of things Bruno believed concerning science. Bruno would be better off described as a martyr for a free thinker, and not a martyr for science.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              Another good academic source of the 'slaughter of the inhabitants of Jeruselum

                              http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2007/2007-1.pdf

                              go for it!!!
                              You're own source actually confirms what I said, that they didn't kill everyone in the city.
                              Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.

                              -Thomas Aquinas

                              I love to travel, But hate to arrive.

                              -Hernando Cortez

                              What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?

                              -Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Explain the 'conflict myth.'
                                Wikipedia is often iffy on controversial issues, but on this issue it does pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_thesis

                                In short, Draper and White presented a very selective history of the relation of science and Scripture to support their contention of intrinsic, perpetual conflict between the two. To do this they had to ignore many inconvenient facts, e.g. the fact that most of the founders of modern science were serious Christians and were in fact motivated to develop science by their Christian convictions.
                                "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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