Thoughts on the quantum mechanics approach to magickal interpretation?

[Seri]

I recently finished reading Kerr Cuhulain's new book, Magickal Self-Defense, which spends a fair bit of time discussing the use of the Schroedinger Hypothesis and other quantum mechanical theory in order to understand the functioning of magick. For the unfamiliar, what the Schroedinger Hypothesis states is that, until an event is observed, it exists in a state of potential for all possible answers, but once it is observed, reality "collapses" onto the result. The classic example of this is the double slit photon experiment, wherein photons are fired towards a wall with two openings. When unobserved, the photons leave a wave interference pattern on the "target" placed on the other side of the wall, indicating that the photons act as waves, which then take all possible paths simultaneously. When observed, the photons act as particles, instead, and hold a definite place in space-time. This experiment has shown to be highly repeatable and consistent.

As this applies to magickal theory, we use entrainment to influence the potentiality towards our desired outcome, then collapse reality upon that outcome. This tends to agree with (at least, on the surface, though I do not know with certainty on an in-depth interpretation), for example, Hermetic philosophy on the matter, in particular with the Principle of Vibration and Principle of Rhythm. Additionally, I've found that this applies equally in my own craft, wherein the greater the uncertainty of the outcome, the more likely I am to be able to influence the outcome in my direction.

I'm very curious as to how the rest of you interpret the mechanics of magick and whether you find this interpretation to be merited or flawed.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Question: how does something know its being observed? I mean, if this is true, whatever forces that are at work must "know" its being observed to then become "reality".

[Seri]

Question: how does something know its being observed? I mean, if this is true, whatever forces that are at work must "know" its being observed to then become "reality".

So far as my (limited) understanding of quantum mechanics can deduce, Planck Scale interactions occur between observer and observed. From my understanding of QM + magick + humans, we expect a single outcome and, given that expectation, enforce it upon interactions that are otherwise perfectly capable of existing in a state of potentiality.

What's really crazy is when we bring in "spooky action at a distance." This is how Einstein described the link between photons that had no reasonable means of interaction, yet exhibited evidence that they were interacting over large spans of distance (with consistency up to about 1000 km) through quantum entanglement.

[Manwë Súlimo]

In other words, an observer somehow forces its expectation of SOME outcome to come to pass to, well, come to pass?

This is making my head hurt :-)

[Seri]

In other words, an observer somehow forces its expectation of SOME outcome to come to pass to, well, come to pass?

This is making my head hurt :-)

That's my interpretation of the data. I mean, with the photon experiment I mentioned, can you think of a single reason that the addition of a camera capable of observing the process should cause photons to cease to act as waves that doesn't involve the actual process of observation?

Quantum mechanical views of magick tend to state that we are in constant interaction with all things, which agrees with several other views ("maya" theories of unity, the aforementioned Hermetic Principles, etc.), but particularly stress that our mere existence exerts influence upon the fabric of reality. We're finding bizarre evidence for this in science through experiments like this.

At this point, it's sort of a scramble to understand exactly what it is we're seeing in the data. I find it encouraging, personally, and potentially sufficient for understanding the way in which existence functions. I do question, however, if it is possible to be an observer that does not collapse the probability into a reality. The concept of that possibility is as frightening as it is intriguing.

[Manwë Súlimo]

The Force is strong in this one.

Heh, it'd be neat to manipulate stuff around us, but also perilously dangerous. I'm obviously not smart enough to comment on the plausibility of what you're asking, but its fun to speculate.

[technomage]

This is making my head hurt :-)

If Quantum Theory doesn't make your head hurt, you're not understanding it.

However, headaches are not proof of comprehension--heaven knows I dont understand it, and it still makes my head hurt.

[tmancour]

The Force is strong in this one.

Heh, it'd be neat to manipulate stuff around us, but also perilously dangerous. I'm obviously not smart enough to comment on the plausibility of what you're asking, but its fun to speculate.

The point is, we DO manipulate stuff around us all the time, consciously or unconsciously. You can't deny that our unconscious minds "observe" things constantly, and only rarely bring them into our conscious mind when needed. Magickal practitioners merely seek to have some conscious influence or control of these factors beyond the usual "wishing for stuff".

The nifty thing about QM is that it helps establish that some sort of interaction between observer and observed constantly exists, and that the conscious, perceptive mind has an important role to play in our interactions with the rest of the universe.

[Jaltus]

It is not fair to say a mind is even needed.

In the double slit experiment, "observation" of which slit the photon went through was based upon a detector of some sort. What should really blow your mind is that when a single photon was used (repeatedly) with a single detector, the following results held:

1) an interference pattern still occurred
2) the photon always passed through whichever slit the detector was at

[Manwë Súlimo]

It is not fair to say a mind is even needed.

In the double slit experiment, "observation" of which slit the photon went through was based upon a detector of some sort. What should really blow your mind is that when a single photon was used (repeatedly) with a single detector, the following results held:

1) an interference pattern still occurred
2) the photon always passed through whichever slit the detector was at

So what is this describing? That photons are somehow, um, "aware" of observation?

Honestly, the more I learn about QM, the more confused I get

[shadowmaster]

So what is this describing? That photons are somehow, um, "aware" of observation?

Honestly, the more I learn about QM, the more confused I get

How could that be possible?
You are already full scale defection on the theologyweb confused and horny doofus meters.

[Manwë Súlimo]

I'll "observe" your head being smacked with a 2x4.

[shadowmaster]

The point is, we DO manipulate stuff around us all the time, consciously or unconsciously. You can't deny that our unconscious minds "observe" things constantly, and only rarely bring them into our conscious mind when needed. Magickal practitioners merely seek to have some conscious influence or control of these factors beyond the usual "wishing for stuff".

The nifty thing about QM is that it helps establish that some sort of interaction between observer and observed constantly exists, and that the conscious, perceptive mind has an important role to play in our interactions with the rest of the universe.

That is wishful thinking indeed.

Such a notion was originally proposed by Wigner. He eventually realized that so-called "observations" are constantly made by non-conscious (mechanical) objects (like a photographic plate). All that is required is any thermodynamically irreversible process.

[Manwë Súlimo]

That is wishful thinking indeed.

Such a notion was originally proposed by Wigner. He eventually realized that so-called "observations" are constantly made by non-conscious (mechanical) objects (like a photographic plate). All that is required is any thermodynamically irreversible process.

What's that mean?

[shadowmaster]

What's that mean?

An "irreversible process" is one that cannot take place in reverse order, like opening a door and then walking through the doorway. "Thermodynamically irreversible" means that entropy has increased by the interaction, like hot and cold water being mixed.