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Thread: The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

  1. #11
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    According to YOU Hitler couldn't subscribe to what you had previously written. He believed he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of those who thought were not worthy to live. In fact, he considered them non-persons (Jews and others).

    You are the one who made the assertion how God can not be known in any absolute sense. I claim that I absolutely know that God exists. The historical science of the authenticity of the New Testament affirms its veracity.

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    According to YOU Hitler couldn't subscribe to what you had previously written. He believed he was doing the world a favor by getting rid of those who thought were not worthy to live. In fact, he considered them non-persons (Jews and others).
    OK, a more complete sentence I can respond to. Your correct, Hitler could not subscribe to what I previous wrote. Yes he believed this, but this did not reflect what I previously wrote.

    You are the one who made the assertion how God can not be known in any absolute sense.
    True. This is what I believe.

    I claim that I absolutely know that God exists.
    OK, you have made an absolute claim based on anecdotal personal experience, weak. Can you provide any objective evidence God exists to support your absolute claim. Given that many people claim to know God(s) differently. Can you objectively show they are wrong and you are right.

    The historical science of the authenticity of the New Testament affirms its veracity.
    The scholars of history nor science do not support your claim. Can you provide the objective historical or scientific evidence to support your claim.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-13-2014 at 01:13 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    This is what you wrote in Post #6:
    I believe 'Good' is best defined as a healthy relationship with the rest of humanity and the diverse world around us, and healthy and compassionate morals and ethics that promotes healthy spiritual and physical relationships.

    Hitler could subscribe to that because in HIS mind he believed he was doing "good". He believed he was ridding the world of undesirables and the detestables.



    What we know is based on experience. I studied the evidence the historicity of the New Testament and so now I absolutely know that God exists. How can others know God differently when they at the same time believe He does exist?

    I'll start with this:
    The New Testament
    More manuscripts, more accurately copied manuscripts and earlier manuscripts to their original writing than from any other document from the ancient world.

    And over and over again these documents teach that the Lord Jesus rose bodily from the dead and taught that He is God.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 03-13-2014 at 01:30 AM.

  4. #14
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    This is what you wrote in Post #6:
    I believe 'Good' is best defined as a healthy relationship with the rest of humanity and the diverse world around us, and healthy and compassionate morals and ethics that promotes healthy spiritual and physical relationships.

    Hitler could subscribe to that because in HIS mind he believed he was doing "good". He believed he was ridding the world of undesirables and the detestables.
    He could, but it would still not be remotely equivalent to what I wrote. To persecute, ethnically cleanse, slaughter others who believe differently, or racially or ethnically different does not represent - 'Good' is best defined as a healthy [positive] relationship with the rest of humanity and the diverse world around us, and healthy and compassionate morals and ethics that promotes healthy spiritual and physical relationships.

    Check you dictionary as to meaning of 'compassionate' and 'healthy.'


    What we know is based on experience. I studied the evidence the historicity of the New Testament and so now I absolutely know that God exists. How can others know God differently when they at the same time believe He does exist?
    The matter is not how they can believe differently, but the fact that they do. They are fallibly human like you.


    I'll start with this:
    The New Testament. More manuscripts, more accurately copied manuscripts and earlier manuscripts to their original writing than from any other document from the ancient world.
    First, this is false. More copies of the cuneiform tablets of Gilgamesh exist then the NT exist, with versions in other languages from Egypt to Mesopotamia then the NT closer to the origin of the source assigned an author.

    Second, no, there are differences in the early manuscripts in the early history, no authors assigned until very late, and nothing known in terms of manuscripts before 70 AD,

    And over and over again these documents teach that the Lord Jesus rose bodily from the dead and taught that He is God.
    . . . and over and over again, OK you believe this is true, but you lack any objective evidence confirming this is absolutely true objectively.

    Questions remain unanswered.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-13-2014 at 02:18 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    1. Hitler could have a different understanding of what healthy and compassionate mean. Your assumption is subjective so it fails to take into account him and so many others that think like he does. This is the result of refusing to see things in black and white. It leads to a subjective morally that is inefficient in handling cases like this.
    2.They don't believe differently if the believe God exists.
    3. Your assertion concerning Gilgamesh is false. The New Testament has over 5000 copies.
    http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
    Last edited by foudroyant; 03-13-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  6. #16
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. Hitler could have a different understanding of what healthy and compassionate mean. Your assumption is subjective so it fails to take into account him and so many others that think like he does. This is the result of refusing to see things in black and white. It leads to a subjective morally that is inefficient in handling cases like this.
    The problem with this line of reasoning is that it makes communication in the English language problematic with you. This would mean that anyone could interpret everything to mean anything, and like Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler could legitimately and did use the Bible to justify a pogrom against the Jews. IF our dialogue is to continue we need to start speaking and communicating using the same language.

    2.They don't believe differently if the believe God exists.
    You need to explain the contradiction here. You believe there is no question that God absolutely exists, and apparently if this true everybody must believe as you do. The problem is that many many people believe radically differently concerning the nature of a 'Source' some call God(s).

    3. Your assertion concerning Gilgamesh is false. The New Testament has over 5000 copies.
    http://carm.org/manuscript-evidence
    All these copies were made more than ~200 (only partial texts early on) to over 300 years after the life of Christ, and these contain differences. All we have between ~70 AD and ~200 AD is a few scraps that cannot be used to verify the verbosity of the gospels as a whole. There is absolutely nothing available inside nor outside the Bible before 70AD.

    Concerning Gilgamesh, I am referring to early consistent copies dating to the time of the origin of the documents.

    IF this dialogue is to continue you need to come back down to earth and communicate using the English language, and not a wildly broad interpretation of the simple meaning of English vocabulary.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-13-2014 at 11:25 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    1. We are speaking the same language but Hitler would understand good as something far different than us. Thus your appeal to some nebulous "good" does not take into account Hitler and others like him.
    You refuse to see things in black and white and he (Hitler) and others like him demonstrate the absurdity of such a belief system. If there is no objective truth then there are only opinions to say that Hitler was wrong or that Hitler was right. This is inescapable and it spells the death knell to those who embrace such a flawed worldview.
    2. All the copies were made more than 200 years after the life of Christ? Wrong on two accounts. First, the John Ryland's Fragment is dated much earlier than that (about 125 A.D.). Second, there is not one writing from the ancient world where the gap between the original and its first manuscript copy is a shorter time period tan the New Testament.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 03-13-2014 at 01:20 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. We are speaking the same language but Hitler would understand good as something far different than us. Thus your appeal to some nebulous "good" does not take into account Hitler and others like him.
    You refuse to see things in black and white and he (Hitler) and others like him demonstrate the absurdity of such a belief system. If there is no objective truth then there are only opinions to say that Hitler was wrong or that Hitler was right. This is inescapable and it spells the death knell to those who embrace such a flawed worldview.
    I do take into account the fallible human nature and people like Hitler and others like him. Does the fact that Adolf Hitler and Martin Luther quote the Bible to advocate a pogrom against Jews make it a flawed world view? Please explain? Is this the death knell of the flawed Christian world view?

    2. All the copies were made more than 200 years after the life of Christ? Wrong on two accounts. First, the John Ryland's Fragment is dated much earlier than that (about 125 A.D.). Second, there is not one writing from the ancient world where the gap between the original and its first manuscript copy is a shorter time period tan the New Testament.
    The above two counts I explained. One or two fragments, which I mentioned, do not constitute documents. Fragments are not manuscripts. Your assertions fail. There is absolutely nothing, zip, nada, nugatory documenting the NT nor the existence Christ inside nor outside the NT before 70 AD. Egyptian known texts in hieroglyphics are comprehensive and describe their religion in detail at the time they believed, and this does not in any way lead to the conclusion that their religious beliefs are 'True.'
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  9. #19
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. You refuse to see things in black and white and he (Hitler) and others like him demonstrate the absurdity of such a belief system. If there is no objective truth then there are only opinions to say that Hitler was wrong or that Hitler was right. This is inescapable and it spells the death knell to those who embrace such a flawed worldview.
    At no time did Hitler ever express any sort of compassion toward those that believed differently, actually neither di Martin Luther.

    Check out this thread where we have a Christian justifying the Inquisition. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...t-Remake/page2

    By your standard this would spell the death knell of the Christian flawed worldview.

    You asked me to define good, but when I asked you, you did not respond.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-13-2014 at 06:12 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  10. #20
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    I may start a thread on this, but I believe that the worldview from the perspective of the Baha'i Faith and/or simply the world from the perspective of Naturalism has more explanatory information and ability to understand our world then any single ancient religious worldview, such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-14-2014 at 01:40 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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