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Thread: The Baha'i Source some call God(s) and why I believe in God.

  1. #21
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    1. It makes their understanding of the New Covenant a flawed worldview. Please cite a passage from the New Covenant that would support what they did or a passage from it that they used to justify their beliefs concerning the Jews.
    2. Fragments constitute written evidence. You have supplied zero evidence from other writings that have better historical attestation that the New Testament.
    Last edited by foudroyant; 03-13-2014 at 11:54 PM.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foudroyant View Post
    1. It makes their understanding of the New Covenant a flawed worldview. Please cite a passage from the New Covenant that would support what they did or a passage from it that they used to justify their beliefs concerning the Jews.
    “The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 8.12)

    “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” (Matthew 23.37,38) Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, “His blood be on us and on our children” (Matthew 27:25). 1 “But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten” (Mark 13.9)

    “He that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16.16)

    “Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And I say the truth, why do you not believe me? He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8.43-47)

    “Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers” (Acts 7.51-53)

    “It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13.45-51)

    “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake ... wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.” (Titus 1.10-14).

    “The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” (l Thessalonians 2.14-16)

    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son. Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father” (l John 2.22,23)

    “I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan ...” (Revelation 2.9,10)

    “Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet...” (Revelation 3.9)

    Have you read Martin Luther's Essay on Jews, that Hitler's followers cited to justify their pogrom against the Jews.

    Can you cite one quote from the Baha'i writings that would remotely support anything like Hitler, or any persecution or harm to anyone who believes differently.

    Still . . . nothing in what Hitler said and did could be taken from what I described as good. The Hitler card is a phooney draw in any argument. You should drop it and go back to an honest dialogue on the intent of the thread.

    2. Fragments constitute written evidence.
    Fragments are evidence of something written after the destruction of the temple, but they do not represent manuscripts of what we have today, and they are only found after the destruction of the temple.

    You have supplied zero evidence from other writings that have better historical attestation that the New Testament.
    I did Egyptian writings for their religious beliefs.


    Again, what constitutes as good? Still waiting . . .

    There remains some unanswered questions.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. #23
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    ... More copies of the cuneiform tablets of Gilgamesh exist then the NT exist, with versions in other languages from Egypt to Mesopotamia then the NT closer to the origin of the source assigned an author. ...
    Hi, Frank.

    Can you expand on this, please? I am not really familiar with the Akkadian and other versions of the Gilgamesh epic, but this sounds very surprising. Who are you considering as the author and how many tablets are you talking about? I would like to know more about this. Thanks.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    1. All of the passages you cited do not teach what you are claiming. Please just cite your best one and I will deal with that.
    2. Thanks for your take on what Hitler thought. It's just your opinion anyway and since as you assert that we shouldn't see things in black and white then what is your foundation that he is in error?
    3. Big deal the fragments were found after the destruction of the Temple. That doesn't cast any doubt upon them. Cite what is in the John Ryland's Fragment that does "not represent manuscripts we have today".
    4. The Egyptian writings do not surpass the New Testament when looking at the 3 criteria I have supplied. So I am still waiting for something else that you have.
    5. Good is who God is and therefore everything He commands is good (Matthew 19:17).

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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon
    Can you cite one quote from the Baha'i writings that would remotely support anything like Hitler, or any persecution or harm to anyone who believes differently.
    This is some pretty Gestapo sounding stuff:

    The Board members must remain ever vigilant, monitoring the actions of those who, driven by the promptings of ego, seek to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of the friends and undermine the Faith. In general, whenever believers become aware of such problems, they should immediately contact whatever institution they feel moved to turn to, whether it be a Counsellor, an Auxiliary Board member, the National Spiritual Assembly or their own Local Assembly. It then becomes the duty of that institution to ensure that the report is fed into the correct channels and that all the other institutions affected are promptly informed. Not infrequently, the responsibility will fall on an Auxiliary Board member, in coordination with the Assembly concerned, to take some form of action in response to the situation. This involvement will include counselling the believer in question; warning him, if necessary, of the consequences of his actions; and bringing to the attention of the Counsellors the gravity of the situation, which may call for their intervention. Naturally, the Board member has to exert every effort to counteract the schemes and arrest the spread of the influence of those few who, despite attempts to guide them, eventually break the Covenant.

    The need to protect the Faith from the attacks of its enemies may not be generally appreciated by the friends, particularly in places where attacks have been infrequent. However, it is certain that such opposition will increase, become concerted, and eventually universal. The writings clearly foreshadow not only an intensification of the machinations of internal enemies, but a rise in the hostility and opposition of its external enemies, whether religious or secular, as the Cause pursues its onward march towards ultimate victory. Therefore, in the light of the warnings of the Guardian, the Auxiliary Boards for Protection should keep "constantly" a "watchful eye" on those "who are known to be enemies, or to have been put out of the Faith", discreetly investigate their activities, alert intelligently the friends to the opposition inevitably to come, explain how each crisis in God's Faith has always proved to be a blessing in disguise, and prepare them for the "dire contest which is destined to range the Army of Light against the forces of darkness". - The Universal House of Justice, the Institution of the Counselors, p. 16
    The Universal House of Justice is saying that members of the Baha'i Faith should spy and report on members of the faith who voice their doubts, and on those who have been deemed heretics and who have been shunned (otherwise known as Covenant Breakers). Then it tells its members that they should "alert intelligently the friends to the opposition", which sounds a whole heck of a lot like turning family and friends against those who have voiced doubts. This stuff sounds really cultish.

    Its also curious how a religion that says it believes in universal peace, love, and acceptance fears both internal and external enemies, both secular and religious. An Army of Light marching towards victory on the forces of darkness. This military theme even carries over into their form of proselytizing that they creepily call "entry by troops".
    Last edited by OingoBoingo; 03-14-2014 at 04:36 AM.

  6. #26
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OingoBoingo View Post
    This is some pretty Gestapo sounding stuff:



    The Universal House of Justice is saying that members of the Baha'i Faith should spy and report on members of the faith who voice their doubts, and on those who have been deemed heretics and who have been shunned (otherwise known as Covenant Breakers). Then it tells its members that they should "alert intelligently the friends to the opposition", which sounds a whole heck of a lot like turning family and friends against those who have voiced doubts. This stuff sounds really cultish.

    Your grossly exaggerating the above, adding your own hyper venomous insertions and conclusions, with things like 'sounds like' hyperbole.

    Its also curious how a religion that says it believes in universal peace, love, and acceptance fears both internal and external enemies, both secular and religious. An Army of Light marching towards victory on the forces of darkness. This military theme even carries over into their form of proselytizing that they creepily call "entry by troops".
    The Baha'i Faith suffers from very real external and internal threats from Islamic pogroms of persecution, executions, and religious cleansing from Islamic countries. This for years has been extended to Western countries with assassination of Baha'i leaders. The Baha'i Faith has been a victim of Islamic terrorism for far longer then the recent attacks by Islam on the west. Western countries have instituted far more countermeasures for antiterrorism then those advocated by the Baha'i Faith. Put what the Universal House of Justice stated in the context of what is required by citizens of western countries to report potential terrorist threats, even if they are family members and friends. Is this likewise 'Gestopo' tactics?

    Your selective denigration of the Baha'i Faith continues, with your Google witch hunt. Your claim of knowledge and background fell through when you called Abdul'baha a prophet, and your hatchet job misrepresented the Baha'i view of science without accurately quoting the Baha'i beliefs. Also, your references to 'excommunication' represented a shotgun attack without the necessary details and background. The bottom line is that no Baha'i has ever been 'excommunicated' for believing and actively promoting the conclusions of Methodological Naturalism. You need to back up this accusation with proper references and citation. Until you back up these accusations with proper references I consider your 'hatchet job' as Trolling.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-14-2014 at 04:27 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  7. #27
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Hi, Frank.

    Can you expand on this, please? I am not really familiar with the Akkadian and other versions of the Gilgamesh epic, but this sounds very surprising. Who are you considering as the author and how many tablets are you talking about? I would like to know more about this. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/gilgamesh/facts.html

    full title · The Epic of Gilgamesh

    author · The ancient authors of the stories that compose the poem are anonymous. The latest and most complete version yet found, composed no later than around 600 b.c., was signed by a Babylonian author and editor who called himself Sin-Leqi-Unninni.

    language · Sumerian; Akkadian; Hurrian; Hittite. All these languages were written in cuneiform script.
    I knew of a claimed author, but a more correct reading is that the written versions beginning ~2700 BC were from an earlier oral epic, and the author claimed was likely a compiler of the epic at sometime before 600 BC. This is likely the same scenario as many of the books of the Bible which is that they were most likely the product of one or more compilers and editors of earlier oral and written materials.

    Tablets related to Gilgamesh number in the thousands and have been found from the fertile crescent to Egypt.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.academia.edu/1070693/A_Provenance_Study_of_the_Gilgamesh_Fragment_from_ Megiddo

    A PROVENANCE STUDY OF THE GILGAMESHFRAGMENT FROM MEGIDDO by Y. GOREN, H. MOMMSEN, I. FINKELSTEIN and N. NA’AMAN

    A Late Bronze Age fragment of a clay cuneiform tablet with the Gilgamesh Epic was found in the 1950s on the surface at Megiddo. The presence of scribes in Megiddo is evident fromthe el-Amarna letters. This is the only first-class literary Mesopotamian text ever to be found in Canaan. The aim of the present study was to examine the origin of this tablet, by mineralogical and elemental methods. The petrographic and NAA results indicate that the tablet was not Mesopotamian, but was written in southern Israel. The implications of this result in view of the small corpus of scholarly cuneiform texts discovered in Egypt and the southern Levant in the second millennium BCE are discussed.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-14-2014 at 02:40 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  8. #28
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    I knew of a claimed author, but a more correct reading is that the written versions beginning ~2700 BC were from an earlier oral epic, and the author claimed was likely a compiler of the epic at sometime before 600 BC. This is likely the same scenario as many of the books of the Bible which is that they were most likely the product of one or more compilers and editors of earlier oral and written materials.

    Tablets related to Gilgamesh number in the thousands and have been found from the fertile crescent to Egypt.
    Thanks, Shuny. I'll look into this as time permits. The other day, I was teaching some of the Akkadian 'alphabet' to sixth graders. I used a later Akkadian text but maybe next time I will add some Gilgamesh material to compare and contrast with Genesis 1.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    The Baha'i Faith suffers from very real external and internal threats from Islamic pogroms of persecution, executions, and religious cleansing from Islamic countries. This for years has been extended to Western countries with assassination of Baha'i leaders. The Baha'i Faith has been a victim of Islamic terrorism for far longer then the recent attacks by Islam on the west. Western countries have instituted far more countermeasures for antiterrorism then those advocated by the Baha'i Faith. Put what the Universal House of Justice stated in the context of what is required by citizens of western countries to report potential terrorist threats, even if they are family members and friends. Is this likewise 'Gestopo' tactics?
    The first paragraph of the citation I quoted from the Universal House of Justice is referring to people voicing doubt within the Baha'i Faith (believers), not to Muslims without:

    The Board members must remain ever vigilant, monitoring the actions of those who, driven by the promptings of ego, seek to sow the seeds of doubt in the minds of the friends and undermine the Faith. In general, whenever believers become aware of such problems, they should immediately contact whatever institution they feel moved to turn to, whether it be a Counsellor, an Auxiliary Board member, the National Spiritual Assembly or their own Local Assembly. It then becomes the duty of that institution to ensure that the report is fed into the correct channels and that all the other institutions affected are promptly informed. Not infrequently, the responsibility will fall on an Auxiliary Board member, in coordination with the Assembly concerned, to take some form of action in response to the situation. This involvement will include counselling the believer in question; warning him, if necessary, of the consequences of his actions; and bringing to the attention of the Counsellors the gravity of the situation, which may call for their intervention. Naturally, the Board member has to exert every effort to counteract the schemes and arrest the spread of the influence of those few who, despite attempts to guide them, eventually break the Covenant.
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon
    Your claim of knowledge and background feel through when you called Abdul'baha a prophet
    As I mentioned in the Genesis thread, Abdul'baha is essentially a prophet in all but name, and in fact, probably is a Minor Prophet according to Shoghi Effendi.

    These are the two divisions that Abdu'l-Bahá make concerning the major (sun) and minor (moon) prophets:

    The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

    The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

    ...With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.

    - Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions pg. 164
    And here Shoghi Effendi calls Abdu'l-Baha a moon to the orb that is Bahá’u'lláh:

    He (`Abdu'l-Baha) is, and should for all time be regarded, first and foremost, as the Center and Pivot of Bahá’u'lláh’s peerless and all-enfolding Covenant, His most exalted handiwork, the stainless Mirror of His light, the perfect Exemplar of His teachings, the unerring Interpreter of His Word, the embodiment of every Bahá’í ideal, the incarnation of every Bahá’í virtue, the Most Mighty Branch sprung from the Ancient Root, the Limb of the Law of God, the Being “round Whom all names revolve,” the Mainspring of the Oneness of Humanity, the Ensign of the Most Great Peace, the Moon of the Central Orb of this most holy Dispensation — styles and titles that are implicit and find their truest, their highest and fairest expression in the magic name ‘Abdu’l-Bahá. He is, above and beyond these appellations, the “Mystery of God” — an expression by which Bahá’u'lláh Himself has chosen to designate Him, and which, while it does not by any means justify us to assign to Him the station of Prophethood, indicates how in the person of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized. - Shoghi Effendi, The Dispensation of Bahá’u'lláh, paragraph 75
    And Adib Taherzadeh, member of the Universal House of Justice from 1988 to 2000 stated in his The Child of the Covenant,
    The Most Great Infallibility mentioned by Bahá'u'lláh is inherent in the Manifestation of God and no one can share in it.[10] 'Abdu'l-Bahá did not possess this but Bahá'u'lláh conferred infallibility upon Him. The Manifestation of God is like a sun which generates its own heat and light; the moon does not possess its own light but receives it from the sun and reflects it towards the earth. Similarly, Bahá'u'lláh acts as the Sun of Truth and 'Abdu'l-Bahá as the Moon of this Dispensation.
    [10 See Taherzadeh, Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, vol. 4, pp. 143, 149-53.]
    And similarly in Taherzadeh's The Covenant of Bahá'u'lláh
    We have already discussed the question of infallibility.[1] The Manifestations of God -- in this day, the Bab and Baha'u'llah -- are possessed of supreme infallibility; this is something inherent within them. It is similar to the sun, which produces its own heat and light, and is thus independent of other sources of energy. But 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice are under the protection of Baha'u'llah by virtue of the fact that He has conferred infallibility upon Them. This resembles the light of the moon, which is not inherent but cast upon it by the sun. This infallibility is validated in the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha, and specifically in Baha'u'llah's Kitab-i-'Ahd (The Book of the Covenant) and the Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha.
    And then there's this quote in The Priceless Pearl by Rúhíyyih Khanum, the wife of Shoghi Effendi,

    If Bahá'u'lláh shone like the sun, and the Master (Abdu'l-Baha) gently went on radiating His light, like the moon, Shoghi Effendi is an entirely different phenomenon, as different as an object hurtling towards its goal is from something stationary and radiating
    And here are more Bahá'í views of the exalted station of Abdu'l-Bahá from the Baha'i Library online:

    In the Kitáb-i-Aqdas (q.v.), Bahá'u'lláh commands his followers to turn toward "Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root" (KA 121:63). In the Book of the Covenant (q.v.), it is explained that this phrase refers to `Abdu'l-Bahá, "the Most Mighty Branch (Ghusn-i-A`zam)" (TB 15:221). Also in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is the injunction "refer ye whatsoever ye understand not in the Book to Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock" (KA 174:82). In the Tablet of the Branch (q.v.) is Bahá'u'lláh's statement that ". . . verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My Beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants. . . They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish" (WOB 135).

    On the basis of these passages `Abdu'l-Bahá assumed authority as "the Center of the Covenant" and "the Interpreter of the Word of God", while at the same time stressing that "the real significance, the innermost secret of these very words, is my own servitude to the sacred Threshold of the Abhá Beauty, my complete self-effacement, my utter nothingness before Him" (WOB 136, 138).

    Shoghi Effendi states that "in the person of `Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized"; establishes `Abdu'l-Bahá as the "Perfect Exemplar" of Bahá'u'lláh's teachings; asserts that `Abdu'l-Bahá "incarnates an institution for which we can find no parallel in any of the world's recognized religious systems"; and finally emphasizes Bahá'u'lláh's designation of `Abdu'l-Bahá as the "Mystery of God" (WOB 134, 143).
    Also note on that page that, though Abdu'l-Bahá denied it, his own brother, Mírzá Muhammad, asserted that Abdu'l-Bahá claimed to be a prophet with a Revelation from God.
    Last edited by OingoBoingo; 03-14-2014 at 04:55 PM.

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    ...Continued from previous post

    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon
    and your hatchet job misrepresented the Baha'i view of science without accurately quoting the Baha'i beliefs.
    I did accurately quote the scientific views of the Baha'i Faith:

    For man, from the beginning of the embryonic period till he reaches the degree of maturity, goes through different forms and appearances. His aspect, his form, his appearance and color change; he passes from one form to another, and from one appearance to another. Nevertheless, from the beginning of the embryonic period he is of the species of man--that is to say, an embryo of a man and not of an animal; but this is not at first apparent, but later it becomes visible and evident. For example, let us suppose that man once resembled the animal, and that now he has progressed and changed. Supposing this to be true, it is still not a proof of the change of species. No, as before mentioned, it is merely like the change and alteration of the embryo of man until it reaches the degree of reason and perfection. We will state it more clearly. Let us suppose that there was a time when man walked on his hands and feet, or had a tail; this change and alteration is like that of the fetus in the womb of the mother. Although it changes in all ways, and grows and develops until it reaches the perfect form, from the beginning it is a special species. We also see in the vegetable kingdom that the original species of the genus do not change and alter, but the form, color and bulk will change and alter, or even progress.

    To recapitulate: as man in the womb of the mother passes from form to form, from shape to shape, changes and develops, and is still the human species from the beginning of the embryonic period--in the same way man, from the beginning of his existence in the matrix of the world, is also a distinct species--that is, man--and has gradually evolved from one form to another. Therefore, this change of appearance, this evolution of members, this development and growth, even though we admit the reality of growth and progress, does not prevent the species from being original. Man from the beginning was in this perfect form and composition, and possessed capacity and aptitude for acquiring material and spiritual perfections, and was the manifestation of these words, "We will make man in Our image and likeness." He has only become more pleasing, more beautiful and more graceful. -`Abdu'l-Bahá's, Some Answered Questions
    The lost link of Darwinian theory is itself a proof that man is not an animal. How is it possible to have all the links present and that important link absent? Its absence is an indication that man has never been an animal. It will never be found. 'Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace
    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon
    Also, your references to 'excommunication' represented a shotgun attack without the necessary details and background. The bottom line is that no Baha'i has ever been 'excommunicated' for believing and actively promoting the conclusions of Methodological Naturalism.
    Not sure where you're getting that I ever asserted that anyone was excommunicated from the Baha'i Faith for being naturalists. But if you'd like background and details on those who have been shunned, excommunicated, or felt forced to resign their membership, here you go:

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai5.htm
    http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/bigquestions/talisman.html
    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/
    http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Ex.htm
    http://www.bahaiawareness.com/excom11.html

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