How to explain things to Protestant friends charitably?

[Alucard]

As most of you probably know, I'm a catechumen in the Orthodox Church. My girlfriend is Pentecostal, but as far as I can tell she's wanting to leave her AoG church and begin looking into Orthodoxy. She understands and accepts what I'm going to ask about below, especially since she saw me decline communion at one of her church's services.

I have other Protestant friends, however, who are somewhat interested in coming to the Divine Liturgy with me, but don't understand why they can't take communion at my parish. As a catechumen, I can't either, but they don't get it. One is from my old Baptist church, who says if he ever comes with me, he's going to go up for communion anyway. My bandmates, however, who all go to Assemblies of God churches, feel quite positively about my conversion, though I'm unsure if they're actually aware of Orthodoxy's claim to being the fullness of the faith and the true Church of Christ. I don't want to have their image of it tarnished unnecessarily when it comes to them attended the Liturgy with me and me having to tell them they can't take communion. Obviously it'll be a hard thing to swallow regardless, but I'm afraid of making it look worse than it is, especially since when I told one of them about it, he said "Well, I wouldn't be taking communion in front of men, I'd be taking it between me and God" (i.e. the modern individualist idea that the community doesn't matter as such and acts only as an instrument to help you out on your spiritual journey).

So yeah, what to say?

Anyone is welcome to respond, though I'm sure Catholics and Orthodox would probably be the most help.

[furay]

One is from my old Baptist church, who says if he ever comes with me, he's going to go up for communion anyway.

What a jerk.

[Alan3838]

What a jerk.

That was uncalled for, remember his teaching on communion is from a protestant perspective.
Prots do not deny vistors in the partaking of communion. It's a matter of choice.

[Alucard]

What a jerk.

He also said it was absolute crap that I'm not to take communion there, and that I should just try it anyway.

Not that the priests know me or anything... or that I'd even want to be approaching the altar unprepared.

[mostlyharmless]

As most of you probably know, I'm a catechumen in the Orthodox Church. My girlfriend is Pentecostal, but as far as I can tell she's wanting to leave her AoG church and begin looking into Orthodoxy. She understands and accepts what I'm going to ask about below, especially since she saw me decline communion at one of her church's services.

I have other Protestant friends, however, who are somewhat interested in coming to the Divine Liturgy with me, but don't understand why they can't take communion at my parish. As a catechumen, I can't either, but they don't get it. One is from my old Baptist church, who says if he ever comes with me, he's going to go up for communion anyway. My bandmates, however, who all go to Assemblies of God churches, feel quite positively about my conversion, though I'm unsure if they're actually aware of Orthodoxy's claim to being the fullness of the faith and the true Church of Christ. I don't want to have their image of it tarnished unnecessarily when it comes to them attended the Liturgy with me and me having to tell them they can't take communion. Obviously it'll be a hard thing to swallow regardless, but I'm afraid of making it look worse than it is, especially since when I told one of them about it, he said "Well, I wouldn't be taking communion in front of men, I'd be taking it between me and God" (i.e. the modern individualist idea that the community doesn't matter as such and acts only as an instrument to help you out on your spiritual journey).

So yeah, what to say?

Anyone is welcome to respond, though I'm sure Catholics and Orthodox would probably be the most help.

I put some thought into such questions and came to the decision that I should not encourage anyone else to follow me while I was undergoing the spiritual journey that takes place during the catechism. This does not mean I did not answer questions, I did and they didn't like the answers, but I certainly did not discuss the many things that I learned and came to believe with those outside the OC. Once you get serious about things you will not want to be attending anything like a pentacostal service anyway much less take communion there, because they are alien to the whole spirit of traditional Christianity. Until they understand the seriousness of what communion is I do not think there is going to be any benefit for them to attend a DL. It reminds me of many years ago when I attended a RCC because a friend dragged me along and took communion, yet when I was considering joining either the RCC or OC the idea of doing so against the direct teaching of either church horrified me and I would have never done so. If you get through your catechism you will almost certainly be sent a letter which will include an article by Fr Leonidas that compares joining the OC to Ruth the Moabites declaration "your people will be my people, and your God will be my God". Don't try and influence your friends when you still have not made that sort of commitment yourself yet, you will only be weakening your own commitment to the decision you make by trying to gain the easy confidence of being part of a crowd. Thus you injure yourself and your friends spiritual search. As to explaining closed communion tell them to do a bit of research on the matter, its not like OC are the only ones who practice this, most churches with any sort of history do so or did in the past. Don't worry about this tarnishing their image. It actually improves it as it is heretical to say that communion can be treated so lightly that anyone outside the church can participate or that unrepentant sinners within the church should participate. Given that this is the apostolic belief of the church you should not be ashamed about it.

Blessings

[mostlyharmless]

That was uncalled for, remember his teaching on communion is from a protestant perspective.
Prots do not deny vistors in the partaking of communion. It's a matter of choice.

False. Do some more reading. Traditional protestant do deny visitors communion in quite a number of churches. Modern protestants whose beliefs are more in line with Anabaptists than the traditional protestants churches do not.

[Alucard]

I've only attended Pentecostal services at her church since becoming a catechumen once or twice, and not because I wanted to be there - rather I went because I was spending the day with her afterwards and she asked me to come meet her there (though maybe drawing me back to Evangelicalism was part of the agenda at that point).

I'm not at all ashamed of the belief that only Orthodox Christians should commune at Orthodox churches, but I'm looking for a way to explain it to my friends so that they don't automatically get the impression that the big bad Orthodox church is telling them that they aren't really Christians, and close them off to it right from the start.

[furay]

That was uncalled for, remember his teaching on communion is from a protestant perspective.
Prots do not deny vistors in the partaking of communion. It's a matter of choice.

That was most certainly not uncalled for. It is the height of spiritual arrogance to expect to just waltz right into a church (any church) and break their rules for Holy Communion because you feel you have a right to it. That is the attitude of Lucifer. Disgusting.

Sorry I don't have any practical advice for you, Alucard. It's definitely a touchy subject, though. Pray and tread lightly.

[Alucard]

Alan needs to remember as well that I was also taught about communion from a Protestant perspective. I understand the Orthodox view on it, and I'm willing to respect it until such a time that they are ready to commune me.

[mostlyharmless]

I've only attended Pentecostal services at her church since becoming a catechumen once or twice, and not because I wanted to be there - rather I went because I was spending the day with her afterwards and she asked me to come meet her there (though maybe drawing me back to Evangelicalism was part of the agenda at that point).

I'm not at all ashamed of the belief that only Orthodox Christians should commune at Orthodox churches, but I'm looking for a way to explain it to my friends so that they don't automatically get the impression that the big bad Orthodox church is telling them that they aren't really Christians, and close them off to it right from the start.

Why don't you just meet up with her after the service at the church? You can catch up with friends etc that way without having to be involved.

I found that there was really no way around giving the impression that my friends version of Christianity was inadequate. Any attempt to answer serious questions leaves that impression, and actually getting baptized in an OC creates big problems for them. Even if you are going to be crismated the same issues will come up when they ask what this actually represents. Not that it should really offend Pentecostals since they run around telling everyone that others are lacking the Spirt because they haven't been baptised in the Spirit or spoken in 'tongues' like they have.

[ChemMJW]

Hi Alucard,

I have encountered this issue numerous times, as I am a convert to Catholicism who came from a protestant background. All of my family and 95% of my friends are protestants, so it can be a complex issue.

I agree with you that the crux of the matter is as follows: we want to be as welcoming and supportive as possible for those of our protestant friends who show a glimmer of interest in learning about the Liturgical Churches such as Catholicism and Orthodoxy while at the same time not compromising our beliefs in order merely to get along.

Here are a few of my thoughts on the matter:

1. The matter must be handled patiently but firmly. Simply explain to your friend that the Orthodox belief on the Eucharist is xyz, and since the friend does not share this belief, it would be dishonest and a disservice both to himself and to your church for him to participate illicitly. My experience in most cases is that if this idea is communicated to the other person gently but with a palpable feeling of seriousness and/or solemnity, it usually sinks in that you do not consider this a trifling matter, and the friend will usually refrain from receving communion out of respect for the depth of your belief.

2. If the friend still insists on attending a Divine Liturgy and receiving illicitly, you might have to be more forceful and withdraw your invitation for the friend to attend with you. I had to do this with a friend of mine who simply could not comprehend why she could not receive the Eucharist if she were to attend Holy Mass with me. Of course, you don't have to be vengeful or spiteful in your phrasing of the invitation withdrawal, simply state that this is such a serious matter for you that you can't be part of a sacrilege. You should also point out (again) that even you cannot receive communion, because you yourself are not (yet) in full communion with the Orthodox Church. It is hard for me to imagine a protestant insisting on receiving when the Orthodox catechumen he is attending the Divine Liturgy with also does not present for communion. If the protestant were to go ahead regardless, this would be a serious slap in the face to me. Furthermore, I would have a hard time believing that the protestant had such a deep eucharistic spirituality that he could not refrain from receving, even known both the official Orthodox position and your own personal sentiments. I personally would perceive any attempt to do so to be a polemical attack against what he sees as an inconsequential and untenable doctrine rather than a true desire to receive the body and blood of the Lord. Sorta like "Well, I know I am forbidden to receive, but I'll do whatever I want anyway since I don't believe in your silly Orthodox/Catholic view of the Eucharist, and nobody can stop me, so take that!"

3. This is an opportunity for you to chatechize your potestant friends in the Eucharistic theology of the high liturgical churches. It will be very helpful to give them a brief primer in why they can't receive at your church instead of just telling them the stricture which forbids their participation. Many protestants do not realize that Catholics and Orthodox consider the Eucharist to be the source and summit of the Faith, both in theology and in practice. At most of the protestant churches I have ever attended (such as Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran churches on two continents), it is the sermon or homily that is the focal point of the service. Many protestant churches only have communion once per week or once per month or even less often, so it is difficult for them to understand in the beginning why we are so focused on holy communion, and since it is sometimes such a foreign experience for them, they are mystified as to why they are forbidden from participating, since communion is probably a relatively casual event at their home church. By teaching them about the central place of the Eucharist in our lives, you will help them develop a healthy respect for the sacrament, and with that respect in hand, they should be much more willing to refrain from receiving at your Divine Liturgy. Even if they don't believe the theology themselves quiet yet (or at all), at least their increased understanding of it should make them more ammenable to respecting your beliefs and customs.

This has already become way longer than anticipated, so I'll stop here. If you have any other particular questions or comments, I'd be happy to hear them.

Peace.

[Alucard]

Why don't you just meet up with her after the service at the church? You can catch up with friends etc that way without having to be involved.

She wanted me to be there. Like I said, I assume it was her trying to tempt me back. It sort of backfired when everyone on stage is looking at the boyfriend of one of the girls to make sure he's "performing" properly, which I wasn't, and witnessing him decline communion.

I found that there was really no way around giving the impression that my friends version of Christianity was inadequate. Any attempt to answer serious questions leaves that impression, and actually getting baptized in an OC creates big problems for them. Even if you are going to be crismated the same issues will come up when they ask what this actually represents. Not that it should really offend Pentecostals since they run around telling everyone that others are lacking the Spirt because they haven't been baptised in the Spirit or spoken in 'tongues' like they have.

It didn't help that my mother, who fully agrees with my decision to leave Evangelicalism and join the Orthodox Church, talked to them like the deck is stacked in their favour (even though I'm sure it wasn't her intention). For example, when I first announced to them what I was doing, they went and asked her if she thought it was weird. Innocently enough, she said "Well, God can work in all sorts of places, and even if a place is off a bit it doesn't stop God from working there" (though she didn't necessarily mean that the Orthodox Church was off) which caused the vocalist to say "Well yeah, my aunt was saved in a Seventh-Day Adventist church, and I don't doubt her salvation for a second."

So in their view, it's sort of all on their terms. They're the ones who have it right, and I've just got my own thing going on which is weird, but they're not going to fault me for it. If that makes sense.

[Darth Executor]

Many protestant churches only have communion once per week or once per month or even less often,

Some Orthodox churches are the same (mine, for example).

[Darth Executor]

That was most certainly not uncalled for. It is the height of spiritual arrogance to expect to just waltz right into a church (any church) and break their rules for Holy Communion because you feel you have a right to it. That is the attitude of Lucifer. Disgusting.

Sorry I don't have any practical advice for you, Alucard. It's definitely a touchy subject, though. Pray and tread lightly.

I think you can actually apply this post somehow (minus the attitude of Lucifer, unless you're looking for a fight ). Maybe compare it to walking into somebody's house and keeping your muddy shoes on when they ask you not to. Courtesy shouldn't be alien to them, protestant or otherwise. It won't help them understand why, but at least it'll keep them out of trouble. It may be my grandmother rubbing off on me but communion isn't a joking matter. She told me a story of a priest who had joined the priesthood for the income and free property, only to have the Eucharist turn into actual flesh and blood during his first service.

[Alucard]

Some Orthodox churches are the same (mine, for example).

Even during fasting periods?

I thought the reason we don't do daily liturgies is because we have married clergy, and they have to abstain from sex the night before performing the Eucharistic service.

She told me a story of a priest who had joined the priesthood for the income and free property, only to have the Eucharist turn into actual flesh and blood during his first service.

Thank God we aren't Donatists!