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  • Originally posted by Bisto View Post
    I associate that with Terminator primarily. (English isn't my first language.) Are fetuses not put to death when they are aborted by their mothers? It is just one of several ways to describe it. Whether it sounds dramatic to you or not, the act is the same nonetheless.


    I'll be honest with you here. I haven't read or thought through all the implications of this topic. This "soul-assumption-at-the-bottom" you speak about, I just don't see it in my thought process as strongly or clearly as you imply. Maybe I will get it eventually, I don't know, but I do think it's not an assumption I'm making at present. I'm just trying to understand both sides' logic.


    Hey, I haven't said people will all of a sudden go full pro-life. Fetuses predicted to have crippling disabilities are aborted already by your secular policy, even after birth in the Dutch case. My point was really simple, it won't change your life, though it might eventually make your wife not want an abortion if you have one (and the technology develops fast). I think it will decrease overall abortion rates by hitting on several mothers' and fathers' hearts, and as far as marginal benefits go in terms of human lives, I guess that's a win.

    Point is made, no controversy, move along
    No matter what actual argument you make against abortion, Tassman ignores it and claims that you are against it because of "religious dogma" - it is his go-to strawman argument. Because he is unable to actually engage the real argument. Even though in all of these abortion threads, no Christian has ever argued that abortion is wrong because of religion.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      No matter what actual argument you make against abortion, Tassman ignores it and claims that you are against it because of "religious dogma" - it is his go-to strawman argument. Because he is unable to actually engage the real argument. Even though in all of these abortion threads, no Christian has ever argued that abortion is wrong because of religion.
      There has been no argument against abortion presented by you other than the blindingly obvious fact that from the moment of conception the zygote is human. We all know this, this is not an issue. The issue is at what stage we grant the prenatal human entity full civil rights, whilst at the same time not removing the civil rights of the mother.

      The SCOTUS, in Roe vs Wade, got the balance right when it allowed women to make their own decisions about pregnancy during the first two trimesters, but prohibited abortion after fetal viability...except in exceptional circumstances. This protects the rights of both parties.

      The only real objection is among those who believe the fertilised human egg is infused with divine essence and therefore sacred from the very beginning...which explains why 75% of white Evangelical Protestants oppose ALL abortion as compared to only 25% religiously unaffiliated people who find it morally wrong. (Pew Research.)

      So, in short, it IS primarily a religious issue.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bisto View Post
        I associate that with Terminator primarily. (English isn't my first language.) Are fetuses not put to death when they are aborted by their mothers? It is just one of several ways to describe it. Whether it sounds dramatic to you or not, the act is the same nonetheless.
        Your English is excellent considering it’s not your first language.

        My objection was to your emotive phrase “put to death” as applied to insensate embryos. It’s as inappropriate as ”putting to death” cancer cells...or any other innate living body tissue.

        I'll be honest with you here. I haven't read or thought through all the implications of this topic. This "soul-assumption-at-the-bottom" you speak about, I just don't see it in my thought process as strongly or clearly as you imply. Maybe I will get it eventually, I don't know, but I do think it's not an assumption I'm making at present. I'm just trying to understand both sides' logic.


        Hey, I haven't said people will all of a sudden go full pro-life. Fetuses predicted to have crippling disabilities are aborted already by your secular policy, even after birth in the Dutch case. My point was really simple, it won't change your life, though it might eventually make your wife not want an abortion if you have one (and the technology develops fast). I think it will decrease overall abortion rates by hitting on several mothers' and fathers' hearts, and as far as marginal benefits go in terms of human lives, I guess that's a win.
        I doubt there are many people that “want abortions”. It’s a serious decision for anybody, religious or “secular”.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          Your English is excellent considering it’s not your first language.
          Thanks!

          My objection was to your emotive phrase “put to death” as applied to insensate embryos. It’s as inappropriate as ”putting to death” cancer cells...or any other innate living body tissue.
          Well, that's the claim at stake, isn't it? I would think twice about dismissing cancer cells if I knew they would eventually develop into a grown human being .

          I doubt there are many people that “want abortions”. It’s a serious decision for anybody, religious or “secular”.
          True, I didn't use the word's common meaning I guess. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.


          By the way, have you dedicated any time to read about the secular pro-life groups? I was checking out their positions the other day. Interesting stuff. In your opinion, is a Christian capable of arguing pro-life their way, without drawing upon this "soul-assumption" you think underlies Christian pro-life speech?
          We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
          - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
          In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
          Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            No matter what actual argument you make against abortion, Tassman ignores it and claims that you are against it because of "religious dogma" - it is his go-to strawman argument. Because he is unable to actually engage the real argument. Even though in all of these abortion threads, no Christian has ever argued that abortion is wrong because of religion.
            I get you. After reading through these threads, I don't think I remember him bringing up the secular pro-life position, other than calling it a minority -- which is why I asked my latest question, to see what he thinks about it and whether us Christians are physically/psychologically/etc. capable of employing their (hopefully religiously-neutral) arguments :)
            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
            Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bisto View Post


              Well, that's the claim at stake, isn't it?
              No. We know that fetal brain activity only begins to exhibit regular wave patterns at around week 25. Previous to that the pre-natal entity is innate...the EEG only shows small bursts of involuntary activity.

              I would think twice about dismissing cancer cells if I knew they would eventually develop into a grown human being
              ...and most people “think twice” about having an abortion, because of the fetuses potential, but again, potential is not actuality...it's not a viable human being yet.

              True, I didn't use the word's common meaning I guess. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.
              What you meant, perhaps not consciously, was the use of judgemental language typical of religious pro-life advocates, e.g. “putting to death” as applied to insensate embryos and my wife “wanting” to have an abortion.

              By the way, have you dedicated any time to read about the secular pro-life groups? I was checking out their positions the other day. Interesting stuff. In your opinion, is a Christian capable of arguing pro-life their way, without drawing upon this "soul-assumption" you think underlies Christian pro-life speech?
              Why do you find it interesting, do their arguments convince you? They seem Appeals to Emotion fallacies to me.

              Have YOU "dedicated any time to read about" the Christian Pro-Choice groups? Is a Christian like you capable of arguing pro-choice their way?
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                I get you. After reading through these threads, I don't think I remember him bringing up the secular pro-life position, other than calling it a minority -- which is why I asked my latest question, to see what he thinks about it and whether us Christians are physically/psychologically/etc. capable of employing their (hopefully religiously-neutral) arguments :)
                He will dodge or dismiss your question with a comment that shows he doesn't actually understand the secular prolife argument and go back to his old strawman. Very predictable.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  He will dodge or dismiss your question with a comment that shows he doesn't actually understand the secular prolife argument and go back to his old strawman. Very predictable.
                  Just saw his answer. I was correct.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    He will dodge or dismiss your question with a comment that shows he doesn't actually understand the secular prolife argument and go back to his old strawman. Very predictable.
                    Typical dismissive bald-assertion! Why do the secular 'pro-life' secular arguments convince you and yet the 'pro-choice' Christian arguments do not? Please explain.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      Typical dismissive bald-assertion! Why do the secular 'pro-life' secular arguments convince you and yet the 'pro-choice' Christian arguments do not? Please explain.
                      what convinces me has no bearing on my argument to you. But I was prolife before I was a Christian. Because I believe a fetus is a human being who deserves to live his life without being murdered for the convenience of the mother. This was before I even believed in "souls". Based purely on biology. Which I have been arguing with you, and you keep claiming I am only arguing from a religious agenda. Because you can't deal with the actual argument because you know science proves you wrong.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        what convinces me has no bearing on my argument to you. But I was prolife before I was a Christian. Because I believe a fetus is a human being
                        Yes a human fetus is human, what else would it be a goldfish?

                        The real issue is when the fetus is granted full civil rights, this is considered by many (including the SCOTUS) to be when it develops a functioning brain and becomes a viable entity...at around week 25.

                        who deserves to live his life without being murdered for the convenience of the mother.
                        Come now! One can’t “murder” an insensate entity any more than one is “murdering” say, a basal cell carcinoma when it’s removed.

                        It’s not for you to judge why a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy; to say it’s to about “convenience” trivialises a difficult situation for any woman. As well, a woman has rights of her own to be considered...or does she lose ALL rights over her own body once she’s pregnant, in your opinion?

                        This was before I even believed in "souls". Based purely on biology. Which I have been arguing with you, and you keep claiming I am only arguing from a religious agenda.
                        There is, nevertheless, a prominent religious agenda, as indicated by the majority opposition that base their objection on religious dogma. For such people the belief that a fertilised egg is created in the image of God must, by definition, take priority over everything else.

                        Because you can't deal with the actual argument because you know science proves you wrong.
                        Science does no such thing. All science "proves" is that a human fetus is human. Well yes, it is.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          Yes a human fetus is human, what else would it be a goldfish?

                          The real issue is when the fetus is granted full civil rights, this is considered by many (including the SCOTUS) to be when it develops a functioning brain and becomes a viable entity...at around week 25.
                          The problem with your definition is that you are letting the government determine what rights a human being has. This goes against the US constitution in which people have rights and only grant the government certain controls. The government cannot infringe on human rights unless they are given up. And the right to life is not given up by the fetus. The government has no authority to deny civil rights to the fetus, who is as you admit, a human being. Thanks for playing, but you are the weakest link. You lose.




                          Come now! One can’t “murder” an insensate entity any more than one is “murdering” say, a basal cell carcinoma when it’s removed.
                          A fetus is not a cancer. As you already admitted, it is a human being. It is not "part of the mother" it is an individual human being.

                          It’s not for you to judge why a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy; to say it’s to about “convenience” trivialises a difficult situation for any woman. As well, a woman has rights of her own to be considered...or does she lose ALL rights over her own body once she’s pregnant, in your opinion?
                          A parent doesn't have the right to kill their offspring. The baby doesn't even exist except as a result of the choices of the mother and father. That makes them responsible for the life they created. It is not like the baby just crawled inside the mother and and squatted there.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            No. We know that fetal brain activity only begins to exhibit regular wave patterns at around week 25. Previous to that the pre-natal entity is innate...the EEG only shows small bursts of involuntary activity.
                            I don't recall seeing people disagreeing on that bit. Maybe I missed it.

                            ...and most people “think twice” about having an abortion, because of the fetuses potential, but again, potential is not actuality...it's not a viable human being yet.
                            I was disagreeing to your example only; I didn't mean to talk about what couples think when choosing abortion.

                            You have said the 'potential vs. actuality' bit before; I get it. I sometimes think about it.

                            What you meant, perhaps not consciously, was the use of judgemental language typical of religious pro-life advocates, e.g. “putting to death” as applied to insensate embryos and my wife “wanting” to have an abortion.
                            Why did you assume a worst case scenario on my subconscious thinking here? I have tried to see things through your eyes. I know I am capable of arguing your position using your arguments if I wanted to, because I have tried to put myself in your shoes when reading you and tried to understand you your own way. Hopefully you've done the same with me and others; if not, can you do that for me, please? Otherwise, this talk isn't likely to go anywhere, don't you think?

                            Now, what do you really think I meant there?

                            Why do you find it interesting, do their arguments convince you? They seem Appeals to Emotion fallacies to me.
                            Oh it's really simple, you don't need belief in a soul or a Creator to argue pro-life. They like to show examples of different pro-choice lines of reasoning having arbitrary criteria. Some are things I hadn't thought about, e.g. since viability is linked to local technology being able to support the fetus outside the womb, a given fetus may or may not be considered viable at some stage of development depending on where the mother is at the time. That screams arbitrary.

                            Have YOU "dedicated any time to read about" the Christian Pro-Choice groups? Is a Christian like you capable of arguing pro-choice their way?
                            No, I haven't read them. Like I said, this topic is new to me as far as 'research' goes. I just assume you have a good grip on all sides at this point, since you guys have been discussing this for years now. Am I wrong to assume this about you? I don't think you'd argue a topic for so long for its own sake.
                            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                            Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              A parent doesn't have the right to kill their offspring. The baby doesn't even exist except as a result of the choices of the mother and father. That makes them responsible for the life they created. It is not like the baby just crawled inside the mother and and squatted there.
                              Does God have the right to kill? I ask because I have seen Christians justify Biblical genocides by saying that he created us, therefore he has the right to destroy us. Here you seem to say the exact opposite of that; that the creator of life has aresponsibility to protect it.
                              My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Pixie View Post
                                Does God have the right to kill? I ask because I have seen Christians justify Biblical genocides by saying that he created us, therefore he has the right to destroy us. Here you seem to say the exact opposite of that; that the creator of life has aresponsibility to protect it.
                                We are not God. You might think you are, but you are not.

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