Subjective Experience of the Effects of Mind-altering Substances & the Relationship of Mind or Soul to the Brain

[CarpeDeum]

We've all seen the debate about whether the soul is truly independent of the body. Skeptics cite the effects of drugs or brain injuries as evidence that the mind is dependent on the body. Believers respond by either distinguishing soul from mind or consciousness; or by arguing that the brain is only a conduit through which the soul interacts with the body. Something like the antenna on a remote-controlled car. It's a halfway reasonable idea, though of course not one that I agree with.

This is a deep and interesting debate, where a lot of good points have been made on both sides. But I'd like to take it in a different direction this time. Usually we limit ourselves to discussing everything from an outside point of view, as someone trying to discern the relationship between the mind and body of another person. I'm curious what we can come up with by looking at it from a subjective, first-person angle. It strikes me that most, if not all people have experienced the effects of some psychoactive substance, whether alcohol, caffeine, or psychiatric meds (something legal, of course); and that they would have more to say about it from the 1st-person than from the outside perspective. So I've put together a series of questions that I hope will get at this... FYI, I am not necessarily equating soul with mind. If you consider them two different things, please clarify which one your answers pertain to; or feel free to answer for both in each case, if you want to handle it that way.

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

[Seri]

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

I tend to think that mind is equivalent to brain, whereas soul is casually linked to brain. That is to say that there are limited entanglements between the two and that these entanglements are not necessary to the existence of soul, though it is questionable if brain would work the same if not entangled as it is.

So say the folks that hang around ritual circles, drug use inhibits magick. What that's caused by, I'm not certain. Most say the lack of focus misdirecting energy. What I find is that people who make a habit of using mind-altering drugs tend to not develop a spiritual nature of any depth, despite any revelations they profess.

I have experienced various psychological effects of mind-altering substances, including alcohol, caffeine, and ritually-enhanced water. I also may or may not have tried certain substances of other types, and, supposing I did, I probably didn't like them.

The general principles behind entanglement would indicate that harm done to one system would be harmful to the entangled system that works with it. That said, it's very difficult to judge with my limited experience in the field of mind-altering substances whether this is directly or indirectly true.

[chunky_fungus]

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

It would seem to me that the mind is a result of physical activity in the brain. This is made fairly clear in cases such as that of Phineas Gage (link).

That said, I'm no expert in how the brain works, and neither is anybody else here. Maybe there's more to it, but I'm yet to see convincing evidence of any alternative source.

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

Books have been written on the subject! In the strictest sense drugs which affect the brain chemically will by definition affect the mind.

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

All the above, psilocybin mushrooms, marijuana and a few others.

The mushrooms were the most interesting, particularly my first time. I could only really describe the experience as "religious".

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

In cases where the brain is affected by the substance, the mind will be affected also. It is unavoidable.

On the subject of mind-altering substances, there are a couple of books which make great reading material with respect to human development and spirituality; Food of the Gods (Terence McKenna) and DMT: The Spirit Molecule (Rick Strassman).

The former concerns the proposal that certain kinds of psychoactive drug were potentially the catalyst for the relatively rapid development of human culture, with particular reference to the diversity of spoken language. The latter deals with activity of the pineal gland and experiments with DMT to simulate near-death/mystical experiences.

[Darth Ovious]

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

I think partly dependent. It seems though that there is always this area with the brain that seems to be disconnected from your body as such. I've had dreams before, which then come true. It's really weird. I don't even remember the dreams until the event actually happens and then I get this sudden Deja Vu when I'm in the middle of the event. It only happens with simple stuff as well rarely anything really important.

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

Good question. Maybe a bit of both.

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

Alcohol and Morphine. I've been drunk before. The Morphine wasn't what I expected though. I was in hospital and I was given it as a painkiller after an operation for a few days. Someone else had told me what it was like but I had a different experience with it. It didn't make me high or anything, it just made me feel really sleepy.

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

Hard to say really. I think a bit of both. I feel there is just this part of yourself which doesn't seem to be connected to your body in any way but it's also hard to describe.

[guacamole]

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

A physical beast, the mind is dependent upon the brain. I'm not certain what the soul is.

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

No idea.

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

Yes. Alcohol, caffeine, pain killers, etc. Clearly some substances can alter brain function, and therefore mind function.

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

I don't think it would be possible to differentiate one from the other.

fwiw
guaca.

[CarpeDeum]

How do you think the mind/soul is related the brain? (Totally dependent? Partly dependent? Is the brain just a conduit/antenna/wireless adapter? Other?)

I think partly dependent. It seems though that there is always this area with the brain that seems to be disconnected from your body as such. I've had dreams before, which then come true. It's really weird. I don't even remember the dreams until the event actually happens and then I get this sudden Deja Vu when I'm in the middle of the event. It only happens with simple stuff as well rarely anything really important.

I have similar experiences from time to time. My instinct, thinking on an objective, empirical level, is that it's some kind of glitch in the brain. Maybe I'm seeing a pattern where there is none, maybe sensory info is being encoded in my memory a split second before it becomes accessible to conscious mind, leading to feelings of deja vu; or maybe my ordinary knowledge and intuition leads me to predict things on a gut level, some of which pop up in dreams, etc., and when they turn out to be correct, I intuit them as foreknowledge.

But this is all speculation, and in the spirit of the thread, I do admit that I've had similar subjective experiences.

Do you think that, subjectively, i.e. in your mind/soul, you could tell whether a drug is affecting your mind/soul itself, or is merely affecting its ability to communicate with your body?

Good question. Maybe a bit of both.

Have you experienced the psychological effects of a mind-altering substance? (including alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, prescribed psychiatric medication)

Alcohol and Morphine. I've been drunk before. The Morphine wasn't what I expected though. I was in hospital and I was given it as a painkiller after an operation for a few days. Someone else had told me what it was like but I had a different experience with it. It didn't make me high or anything, it just made me feel really sleepy.

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

Hard to say really. I think a bit of both. I feel there is just this part of yourself which doesn't seem to be connected to your body in any way but it's also hard to describe.

This might be worth pondering while drunk or under the influence of something. Can I subjectively discern some part or aspect of my mind that is not being affected by the substance?

Are my emotions unaffected? My ability to understand language, or to form sentences (at least on a mental level, even if my speech is slurred)? My ability to do math? My ability to recall memories or form new ones? What about my judgment, habits, fears, hangups, interests, etc.? My sense of right and wrong? Any of my mental habits... Or what about something deeper, like my consciousness itself? (assuming there's anything to it that's distinct from the above) Is there anything at all in my mind that remains unaffected?

I'm gonna try this with a nice bottle of merlot as soon as I get over this cold. And I gotta remember to print out the foregoing checklist, rather than count on memory at that point.

[lilpixieofterror]

Easy, the spiritual (or the soul), the mental, and the physical are linked. When one is effected, they are all effected in some way. If one is out of balance, the other two will be brought down with it.

[salvationfound]

In your subjective experience of the effects of drug(s), do you feel, within your mind/soul, that your mind/soul itself is being affected, or that only its ability to communicate with your body is being affected?

Well the Proverbs say that pleasant words can reach the soul and
from my experience that's true. Pleasant words do not seem to
affect my brain. As far as I know my brain is still there no matter
what someone says to me. But what they say to me affects my
soul. So why is it impossible for something else out there external
to affect my soul as well?

[Darth Ovious]

I have similar experiences from time to time. My instinct, thinking on an objective, empirical level, is that it's some kind of glitch in the brain. Maybe I'm seeing a pattern where there is none, maybe sensory info is being encoded in my memory a split second before it becomes accessible to conscious mind, leading to feelings of deja vu; or maybe my ordinary knowledge and intuition leads me to predict things on a gut level, some of which pop up in dreams, etc., and when they turn out to be correct, I intuit them as foreknowledge.

But this is all speculation, and in the spirit of the thread, I do admit that I've had similar subjective experiences.

This might be worth pondering while drunk or under the influence of something. Can I subjectively discern some part or aspect of my mind that is not being affected by the substance?

Are my emotions unaffected? My ability to understand language, or to form sentences (at least on a mental level, even if my speech is slurred)? My ability to do math? My ability to recall memories or form new ones? What about my judgment, habits, fears, hangups, interests, etc.? My sense of right and wrong? Any of my mental habits... Or what about something deeper, like my consciousness itself? (assuming there's anything to it that's distinct from the above) Is there anything at all in my mind that remains unaffected?

I'm gonna try this with a nice bottle of merlot as soon as I get over this cold. And I gotta remember to print out the foregoing checklist, rather than count on memory at that point.

Actually, I think emotions get stronger when you're drunk. It seems that you lose the ability to control them and sometimes you can make poor choices because of it. Its part of the problem with the UK's drinking culture over here. We get some yobs causing trouble after too many drinks. It seems to me that alchol weakens your reasoning while you're emotions stay the same.

[mig_killer2]

I would say that mind and soul are synonymous. I think the effects of hallucinagenic drugs disproves the Aristotelian notion of substance dualism, namely that rather than the human mind being dependent upon the Body (I mean that the brain causes the mind, not the other way around), the body is in fact dependent upon the mind.

[CarpeDeum]

I would say that mind and soul are synonymous. I think the effects of hallucinagenic drugs disproves the Aristotelian notion of substance dualism, namely that rather than the human mind being dependent upon the Body (I mean that the brain causes the mind, not the other way around), the body is in fact dependent upon the mind.

Although I'm not a dualist either, I take seriously the rebuttal that much of this may be explained if the brain is just a conduit. Then when the brain is damaged, under the influence, etc., you'd expect its ability to interface with the body to be screwed up. IMO, this rebuttal fails to account for amnesia and changes in personality or emotions, and falls prey to Ockham's razor, not to mention the subjective considerations I'm talking about in this thread. But having said that, I wouldn't dismiss dualism just on the basis you cite.