Is there such a thing as a GOOD local Christian television station?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

To be honest with you I don't know too much about them. But I don't think the watchtower or the Mormons have anywhere near a stage as TBN does, nor do they have as much influence as they're more "underground.".

Then you really don't know much about them. Watchtower prints more than all evangelical presses combined. The Mormons are on the way to becoming a major world religion.

[Kabane52]

TBN started a youth-oriented network, called JC-TV that is relevant and appealing to the generations coming up. There is no falling away of young people. They are better taught of the Lord now than in recent decades. The next generations are more committed and on fire for God and the gospel than most older Christians know.

I know for a fact that this is incorrect. If you want to define "on fire for God" as some youth going to some prescheduled "revival" where they shed a few tears and then go home and look at porn, then I suppose you could say that my generation is on fire for God.

But if you want to talk about a real commitment to God, and a real repentance of sin and understanding of the seriousness of it, then my generation is colder than Antarctica. That is why so many fall away within a few years of leaving home, because their Jesus is a Jesus who simply giggles at sin, and no one ever gave them intellectual grounding for their faith.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

That's the problem. People consider having strong emotion as meaning you're a committed Christian.

Strong emotion can be a sign of a committed Christian, but it is not a necessary attribute of one.

[TyRockwell]

Um. Yeah. He did. He asked Saul why he was chasing him around.

That's not the same as condemning him. Asking Saul why he was chasing him was a conciliatory act, to get Saul to think, and hopefully relent.

He told Saul that he was wrong for doing what he did.

That's a long way off from harshly condemning Saul. It sure wasn't in any way like making a harsh public criticism.

All he didn't do was kill him.

"All he didn't do?" Dumb statements like that one should be caught and edited out.

Okay guys! Hands-up! Anyone have plans to kill Word of Faith teachers?

*Looks around and sees no hands raised.*

Okay! We're good!

Show where Jesus said, 'Do all manner of evil-speaking against others, but just don't kill them.'

Sorry Ty. That passage is about judging. It's not about giving financially. The way you handle others in judging is how God will handle you.

No, Algae, there were several more topics in that passage:
30. "Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. No judging there.
31. "And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. (you reap what you sow; not limited to not judging)
32. "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. (The topic is loving even strangers)
33. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. (doing good regardless of whether good was done, or given, to you.)
34. "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. (lend them a judgment? you've got plenty.)
35. "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward (oh no! can't do it, at all, there might be a reward!) will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. (but we all know He isn't kind to faith teachers)
36. "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. (just don't be merciful to people with a different understanding of giving, right?)
37. "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. (there, he mentioned judging, only, all by itself, without anything said in relation to it!?! right?)
38. "Give, and it will be given to you: (wonder why he brought THAT up) good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom (by MEN, according to Mark). For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.''

Now if TBN really is getting this hundredfold back supposedly, why do they have to ask for money from others? Why not have others give the money to other ministries?

Sometimes you reap thirty-fold, sometimes sixty-fold, sometimes a hundred-fold. Try to remember this. Who told you they 'have to' ask?' They don't 'have to,' they give people the opportunity to sow into good ground.

Is this while they say it's God's will for you to be rich? Yeah. I'm sure if you want people to hand in money hand over first, you'll talk good also.

Algae, I'm sure God wants you poor. Don't you agree?
Would you rather be blessed because you reaped a good harvest, or because you hoarded all the seed you got?

No. Because 1% gave everything when they were instructed to do so. It's happened. It's been seen to happen and I'm sure the amount is much higher than you think it is.

Don't be so sure. Innuendo is no evidence at all.

I have no problem with my words revealing me. They reveal me as a servant of Christ who despises the greed and blasphemy of the WoF teachers.

You think too highly of yourself. Try more humility, it looks good on a real servant. Your deprecation is haughty, and unbefitting someone supposedly outraged by what they consider evil.

Excuse me? Ken Copeland saying that when he reads in the Bible Jesus saying "I AM" and he smiles and says "Yes I am too!"? That's not blasphemy?

No. Since Christ is the "I AM" and we are IN HIM, and we are seated with him in heavenly places, at the right hand of God...and we are The Body of Christ, of which He is the Head, and "Where I AM, my servant will also be," among other references, it is no stretch to say God is identifying with us as sons as He does with Christ. "Now are we the sons of God." Don't let the imagery trip you up, dude. The issue is, can God trust you like a true faithful son? Or do you beat His servants?

Benny Hinn teaches tri-theism. That's not blasphemy?

It's so good to know that you perfectly understand and can articulate the Trinity. Spare me the details. IS there a Father God? Is there a Son, Jesus the Christ? Is there a Holy Spirit? Yes, and there's no benefit in finding fault with somone's Lebonese articulation of them, or lack thereof. I personally would prefer that he just be quiet and apply the anointing to heal. He HAS that! But then, of course you've heard that cessationist Baptists get 'mass hysteria,' and think that Beelzebub is healing people in Jesus' Name, right?

T.D. Jakes teaches a Christian heresy and gives a false prophecy. That's not blasphemy?

What heresy? What false prophecy? Has articulation failed even YOU?

Hey. You show me where I am wrong. You haven't done it yet.

Sure I have. You beat God's servants. You find fault with, and judge Christians who don't have your limited understanding.

You wave everything away. Including the wickedness of the WoF teachers.

Waved what away? You have yet to prove a single accusation, innuendo and misrepresentation.

Most of us rest assured that God will judge those white-washed walls.

No, you don't believe that God will do what you say! That is why you think you have to do it for Him.

And will they get I'm convinced? You bet they will and I hope they do so they won't give a penny to these false teachers!

Gee, willickers, Mr. Algae, do they have horns and bad breath, too?

No I don't in bolds! ooooh! That settles it! Step back everyone! Ty has spoken from Sinai and he says I don't know! Well, I guess that's it!

I thank you, humbly.

And that can happen, but that is his call. It is not ours. There is no guarantee that anyone will be healed or anyone will be saved from debt or anyone will be saved from disaster.

Some of you have no hope or expectation for it, either. Ever wonder if you did, if you'd have more of those other salvation manifestations?

Next, I suppose you are answering me that I didn't threaten you:

Sure. Here's the words. "Touch not God's anointed."

Or what?

What's going to happen to me?

Something bad?

It is telling that you feel threatened. Its a guilty conscience, bro.

Something....threatening?

Rest assured, I don't see these conmen as God's anointed for a second.

Well, okay. I'll be fair.

I don't see the same for the conwomen either.

There! Got them all covered!

No, I think you missed one, right over there!-->
Get a broader brush! or a cat of nine-tails, or a sawed off shotgun! There is murder in your heart, brother. Cut it out.

Hatred for false ideas? You got it! Do I have rage? Nope. I'm calm as can be. (Other than my desire to break forth in hysterics that you think I'm in rage.)

But it seems you're judging me as judging....

Hypocrite.

If you think calling brothers of our Lord 'blasphemers,' and 'heretics' is not judging, then you don't have a clue to what judging IS.

Sorry Ty. I can't think of anyone I hate. I can think of people I don't care to be around, but people I hate? Not at all. Now do I hate some ideas? You betcha! With a passion! Such as WoF nonsense!

You slander your brothers, some of whom you've never met and know absolutely nothing about, apart from some supposed expose' from a critical, cessationist perspective. Most of them each have led more people to a saving knowledge of Jesus as Savior and Lord than you'll ever SEE in your whole lifetime.

[TyRockwell]

I know for a fact that this is incorrect. If you want to define "on fire for God" as some youth going to some prescheduled "revival" where they shed a few tears and then go home and look at porn, then I suppose you could say that my generation is on fire for God.

But if you want to talk about a real commitment to God, and a real repentance of sin and understanding of the seriousness of it, then my generation is colder than Antarctica. That is why so many fall away within a few years of leaving home, because their Jesus is a Jesus who simply giggles at sin, and no one ever gave them intellectual grounding for their faith.

You ought to get the hint that your ways are not working, with such a lousy retention of youth into adulthood as well-grounded in the faith.

Its too bad that you don't realize that other groups of young people are doing far better than the ones you know.

[Rayado]

This is what Copeland said, with source:

When I read in the Bible where He says I AM, I just smile and say, 'Yes, I AM too.'" (Believer's Voice of Victory Broadcast, 7/9/1987)

He's not talking about being the Body of Christ. He's equating himself with Yahweh. Which is blasphemy.

So either you need to accept the criticisms that others have leveled against him, or stop posting in Christianity 201.

Edit: and that's the tip of the nasty iceberg of damning quotes from Copeland.

[Manwë Súlimo]

When I read in the Bible where He says I AM, I just smile and say, 'Yes, I AM too.'" (Believer's Voice of Victory Broadcast, 7/9/1987)

Oh.....my.

I'm speechless.

[Kabane52]

You ought to get the hint that your ways are not working, with such a lousy retention of youth into adulthood as well-grounded in the faith.

Its too bad that you don't realize that other groups of young people are doing far better than the ones you know.

What the heck are you talking about? My ways aren't even being applied! It is the prescheduled revival method that is being applied today, and that is YOU who ought to get the hint.

[Sparko]

I kind of agree with TY, as to "touch not God's anointed." There's no way TBN could thrive the way it is without it being inspired to some degree by God. God uses everything and everyone for his glory and purpose, and who am I to judge this.

By that logic the south american drug cartels are a ministry of God because they are so successful.

[Sparko]

The biggest evidence that the WoF movement produces uneducated Christians that rely on emotion instead of sound teaching is right here in this thread...

Ty Rockwell is the perfect example of what this abomination of Christianity produces.

I don't doubt for a minute that Ty is a Christian and loves Christ, but his theology is so messed up and twisted that I wonder who his version of Christ really is. and when confronted with defending his "faith" - he relies on emotional appeals.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

That's not the same as condemning him. Asking Saul why he was chasing him was a conciliatory act, to get Saul to think, and hopefully relent.

Yeah Ty. That's right. You stand up overlooking your enemy with all his soldiers around him to hear him and ask him "What on Earth are you doing?"

Yeah. Nothing condemning about that. Nothing shaming whatsoever.

That's a long way off from harshly condemning Saul. It sure wasn't in any way like making a harsh public criticism.

That's exactly what it was and it extended to his soldiers as he asked them why they failed to guard the king. Sorry Ty. Your precious WoF teachers are not beyond criticism.

"All he didn't do?" Dumb statements like that one should be caught and edited out.

All he did not do was kill him.

And please Ty, if I had to edit out all your dumb statements I would have to buy out the supply of white-out at Staples.

Show where Jesus said, 'Do all manner of evil-speaking against others, but just don't kill them.'

Yeah. Because that verse has to be there. Sorry Ty. Touch not God's anointed simply means "Don't kill them." It doesn't mean you can't criticize them and if criticism is evil-speaking, then why do you speak evil against the brethren in this thread?

No, Algae, there were several more topics in that passage:
30. "Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. No judging there.
31. "And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. (you reap what you sow; not limited to not judging)
32. "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. (The topic is loving even strangers)
33. "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. (doing good regardless of whether good was done, or given, to you.)
34. "And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. (lend them a judgment? you've got plenty.)
35. "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward (oh no! can't do it, at all, there might be a reward!) will be great, and you will be sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. (but we all know He isn't kind to faith teachers)
36. "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. (just don't be merciful to people with a different understanding of giving, right?)
37. "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. (there, he mentioned judging, only, all by itself, without anything said in relation to it!?! right?)
38. "Give, and it will be given to you: (wonder why he brought THAT up) good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom (by MEN, according to Mark). For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.''

Um. Yeah. There were more topics covered. But at this point he's talking about judging. Showing he was discussing topics beforehand doesn't address that.

Sometimes you reap thirty-fold, sometimes sixty-fold, sometimes a hundred-fold. Try to remember this. Who told you they 'have to' ask?' They don't 'have to,' they give people the opportunity to sow into good ground.

I would think if they believed their spew, they wouldn't, but they do! They ask constantly! You want to sow money into good ground? Give to St. Jude's. Give to Prison Fellowship. There are any number of ministries.

And actually, I do believe in a hundredfold return. It's just not in this lifetime. Tell you what Ty, if you really believe this....

My textbooks this semester cost around $100. Wanna make an easy at least $3,000? I'll be glad to send you the bill.

Algae, I'm sure God wants you poor. Don't you agree?
Would you rather be blessed because you reaped a good harvest, or because you hoarded all the seed you got?

Algae. Now that's cute. You try to come up with an insulting name for me and algae is the best you can do? Dang. As if it wasn't enough you can't exegete Scripture, you can't even insult someone right.

And actually, I never said he wants me poor. I don't think he wants me rich either though. I remember the advice from Proverbs. Let me not be rich lest I forget my God, nor be poor lest I steal and dishonor him.

And as far as my personal finances go at this moment, I've got a good job and I make enough money to get through school and pay for all the books that I order and read. I don't give a darn about being rich and those who give with the intent of getting it back are not truly giving. You are to give simply because God commanded it.

Don't be so sure. Innuendo is no evidence at all.

Then why not get a spine and accept A-Man's challenge on this?

You think too highly of yourself. Try more humility, it looks good on a real servant. Your deprecation is haughty, and unbefitting someone supposedly outraged by what they consider evil.

Wow. It's egotistical to think I have no problem with my character being revealed? Maybe you don't want yours revealed then. It's egotistical to say I despise the WoF heresy? If that's the case, I'll be egotistical. I love the nice insinuation that I'm not a real servant either. And if you're right in one area, it's this. I don't have enough outrage over what the WoF teachers are doing. Thanks Ty. I'll try to speak out against them even more now so I can keep others away from their blasphemies.

No. Since Christ is the "I AM" and we are IN HIM, and we are seated with him in heavenly places, at the right hand of God...and we are The Body of Christ, of which He is the Head, and "Where I AM, my servant will also be," among other references, it is no stretch to say God is identifying with us as sons as He does with Christ. "Now are we the sons of God." Don't let the imagery trip you up, dude. The issue is, can God trust you like a true faithful son? Or do you beat His servants?

Wow. That is some of the most thorough Scripture twisting I've seen. What we are talking about is positional relationship with God. What Jesus was talking about was his ontological nature. Copeland is claiming that ontological nature for himself which makes him a blasphemer. You wanna defend that? Then I see you just as guilty.

It's so good to know that you perfectly understand and can articulate the Trinity.

Perfectly understand? No. Knowledgable apprehension of the blessed doctrine? You bet! I did my last research paper on the Trinity and I've read more on it than you've forgotten. When the Mormons visited Rayado and I, it was time to stay out of the way when the Trinity came up. This is one doctrine I am passionate about and I do speak from knowledge definitely when I speak on the Trinity.

Spare me the details.

Somehow, I'm not surprised you don't care about the details of the Trinity.

IS there a Father God? Is there a Son, Jesus the Christ? Is there a Holy Spirit?

Wrong question to start off with. If you ask "Is there a Father God?" are you assuming unipersonalism on the part of God to begin with? Is the Father God? Is the Son God? Is the Spirit God? Yes to all three. All three are one God though by sharing an ontological nature.

Yes, and there's no benefit in finding fault with somone's Lebonese articulation of them, or lack thereof.

If they are claiming to speak the truth of God, you bet there is! Benny Hinn gives an interpretation that is more akin to the Mormon view of god and this on the Trinity Broadcasting Network. Oh the irony!

I personally would prefer that he just be quiet and apply the anointing to heal.

You mean like all those dead people that were supposed to come to life in front of their TVs. How many did you count? You mean like that lady that got killed at a Benny Hinn Crusade when someone "slain in the Spirit" fell on her? Hey Ty. Here's a good question. If Benny Hinn has this power, why doesn't he go to St. Jude's and heal all the children there?

He HAS that!

Then have him go to St. Jude's. There are children dying of diseases we've never even heard of.

But then, of course you've heard that cessationist Baptists get 'mass hysteria,' and think that Beelzebub is healing people in Jesus' Name, right?

I don't deny God can heal today. I just highly question that he uses heretics to do so. Then again, he did use Balaam's Donkey before. It's a fitting comparison.

What heresy? What false prophecy? Has articulation failed even YOU?

Oneness Pentecostalism? It's a heresy. The early church is being insulted for their staunch defense of orthodoxy.

Sure I have. You beat God's servants. You find fault with, and judge Christians who don't have your limited understanding.

No you haven't. Go talk to the people here who know me and will say that I know more than them. They'll tell you the opposite. That in fact, I seek to lift them up as much as I can. I try to answer their questions and teach them as much as I can.

You speak without knowledge Ty.

As usual....

Waved what away? You have yet to prove a single accusation, innuendo and misrepresentation.

Like your joke explanation of what Kenneth Copeland said? Ty. Everyone in here knows the statements I'm making, except for you apparently. We've seen these teachers and we know their blasphemy.

No, you don't believe that God will do what you say! That is why you think you have to do it for Him.

Um. Yeah. I don't believe God will do what I say. Instead, I believe I am to do what he says. That is how it's supposed to be isn't it? Unless God is your cosmic bellhop?

And by golly, since Paul says we saints will judge the world, I think I am qualified to make a judgment on whether or not someone's a blaspheming heretic or not.

Gee, willickers, Mr. Algae, do they have horns and bad breath, too?

Dude. Learn to insult right. This is just pathetic.

I thank you, humbly.

The mighty Ty has spoken. All bow!

Some of you have no hope or expectation for it, either. Ever wonder if you did, if you'd have more of those other salvation manifestations?

ONly had one and it's all that I need. You see, I'm not in it for manifestations or experiences. I'm in it for truth.

Next, I suppose you are answering me that I didn't threaten you:


It is telling that you feel threatened. Its a guilty conscience, bro.

Your mind-reading abilities suck to the nth degree.

I don't feel a bit guilty about what I say here. In fact, I'm pleased with every word and my only concern is I don't despise this heresy enough.

Sorry Ty, but saying "Touch not God's anointed" is a threat. What's going to happen if I criticize them? Hmmmm?

No, I think you missed one, right over there!-->
Get a broader brush! or a cat of nine-tails, or a sawed off shotgun! There is murder in your heart, brother. Cut it out.

Hey. If there's anyone in the WoF crowd I missed in calling them blasphemers, then please point them out. I don't want to leave any of them out.

Is there murder in my heart? Nope. Not thinking of killing anyone. I just hate their doctrines.

If you think calling brothers of our Lord 'blasphemers,' and 'heretics' is not judging, then you don't have a clue to what judging IS.

Oh it is judging. If they are brothers, they need to repent. I see fruit of heresy instead.

You slander your brothers, some of whom you've never met and know absolutely nothing about, apart from some supposed expose' from a critical, cessationist perspective. Most of them each have led more people to a saving knowledge of Jesus as Savior and Lord than you'll ever SEE in your whole lifetime.

I'm so pleased that you claim to know my future. Sorry Ty, but I am familiar with these teachers and everything I hear about them only makes them worse and worse. Rest assured Ty, I am not uninformed.

[seanD]

By that logic the south american drug cartels are a ministry of God because they are so successful.

Uh... no. This is not the logic at all.

At the risk of anyone getting the wrong impression that I'm offering an apologetic for TBN, I'm gonna go ahead and repost my subsequent post anyway where I clarified myself.

I'm just saying that it's just hard for me to believe that God would allow something like that to thrive for three decades without enacting judgment at some point. I can see a pagan station, but a station that is directly representing him. God could give a rat's butt about the the pagans that surrounded the Jews in the wilderness, but when the children of Israel sinned and fell away to idols, he enacted because they were his direct representatives.

Drug cartels aren't shipping their kilos in the "name of Jesus" with gospel tracks attached. That was my point.

[Alan3838]

Then again, he did use Balaam's Donkey before. It's a fitting comparison.

lol, that is funny, and a great inference to the asses of whom you speak.

[Sparko]

Uh... no. This is not the logic at all.

At the risk of anyone getting the wrong impression that I'm offering an apologetic for TBN, I'm gonna go ahead and repost my subsequent post anyway where I clarified myself.



Drug cartels aren't shipping their kilos in the "name of Jesus" with gospel tracks attached. That was my point.

um yeah. at least they are honest enough not to stick Jesus' name on their product.

That just makes what TBN does even worse.

[princesa]

If I've read correctly, there have been no recommendations for a good local Christian television show. How about local radio stations in the Tri State Area?