Jesus in the Old Testament?

[Jeremiah333]

Hi!

I have a friend who has become a Jehovah's Witness. We've been talking about different things, and she says that Jesus did not exist when Moses led the exodus out of Egypt.

We were discussing this verse here:

Exodus 17:6 (New International Version)
6 I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Isn't that rock Christ? Or is the JW Bible version different?

Thanks!

[xcav8tor]

Hi!

I have a friend who has become a Jehovah's Witness. We've been talking about different things, and she says that Jesus did not exist when Moses led the exodus out of Egypt.

We were discussing this verse here:

Exodus 17:6 (New International Version)
6 I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Isn't that rock Christ? Or is the JW Bible version different?

Thanks!

Hi Jeremiah333,

Christ was not literally that rock, though it was symbolic of Him. You don't really need to use that verse to show Christ's pre-existence anyway.

You might want to point out that where God appears in the OT in physical form (theophanies), especially as The Angel of Yahweh, that these are instances where Christ appears as the physical manifestation of Yahweh (because the Bible is very clear that God the Father has never been seen, nor can be seen). So who DID these people see, when they say "Jehovah" if not Jehovah the Son who is the visible image of the invisible God?

You might also have fun pointing out to your friend about there being 2 Jehovahs (see Gen. 19:24) - even in their NWT.

As far as Jesus' pre-existence, this can be easily verified by John 17:5 where Christ asks, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

Also, John 1:1-3 shows Jesus as the Word being the direct Creator of the universe. Even though they mistranslate the passage to make Christ "a god" your friend must at least acknowledge His existence prior to creation - which is well before the time of Moses.

Actually it sounds like your friend is a "newbie" because I don't think she is fully aware of what her cult teaches. This being the case, there may still be hope for her.

Good luck,
xcav8tor

[Jeremiah333]

Wonderful! Thank you so much!

[IncRus]

Hi!

I have a friend who has become a Jehovah's Witness. We've been talking about different things, and she says that Jesus did not exist when Moses led the exodus out of Egypt.

We were discussing this verse here:

Exodus 17:6 (New International Version)
6 I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Isn't that rock Christ? Or is the JW Bible version different?

Thanks!

Your friend is correct. Jesus did not exist when Moses led the exodus out of Egypt. And xcav8tor is also correct. Christ was not literally that rock, though it was symbolic of Him.

You might want to point out that where God appears in the OT in physical form (theophanies), especially as The Angel of Yahweh, that these are instances where Christ appears as the physical manifestation of Yahweh (because the Bible is very clear that God the Father has never been seen, nor can be seen). So who DID these people see, when they say "Jehovah" if not Jehovah the Son who is the visible image of the invisible God?

It is ABSURD to say that "God appears in the OT in physical form, especially as the angel of Yahweh." Do you really believe that God would appear as "The Angel of Yahweh?"

The Bible does NOT tell us that "the son is the visible image of the invisible God." While Jesus is the "image of the invisible God," it does NOT mean that Jesus is God. God is Spirit (John 4:24). Hence, God has NO form. Therefore, to say that Jesus is the "visible image" of the invisible God does NOT make any sense.

You might also have fun pointing out to your friend about there being 2 Jehovahs (see Gen. 19:24) - even in their NWT.

The Today's English Version renders Gen. 19:24 differently from the King James Version, thus: "Suddenly the Lord rained burning sulphur on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah." To even think that there are TWO Jehovah's in the verse is devoid of rational thinking. Why would it need TWO Almighty Jehovah's to rain sulphur and brimstone on two hapless cities?

As far as Jesus' pre-existence, this can be easily verified by John 17:5 where Christ asks, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

John 17:5 does NOT explicitly say that Jesus was WITH the Father BEFORE the world was. If Jesus were literally or physically WITH the Father BEFORE the world was, what was Jesus? If Jesus were God who was WITH God the Father BEFORE the world was, there would have been TWO Gods in the beginning which CONTRADICTS Isaiah 45:5-6 and Isaiah 46:9 which tell us that there is NO God beside God.

Also, John 1:1-3 shows Jesus as the Word being the direct Creator of the universe. Even though they mistranslate the passage to make Christ "a god" your friend must at least acknowledge His existence prior to creation - which is well before the time of Moses.

The Lord God of the Old Testament is the true and living God (Jer. 10:10) who MADE the heavens and the earth (Jer. 10:12; Neh. 9:5; Isaiah 42:5; 44:24). This Lord God is the Father (Isaiah 63:16; 64:8) whom Jesus DECLARED as the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Hence, John 1:1-3 does NOT mean that Jesus is the "direct creator of the universe." What John 1:3 means is that God MADE all things BECAUSE OF Jesus. And without Jesus, NOTHING was made. This is what Col. 1:16 means also.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Oh, IncRus, you're just so cute. I think we'll keep you.

[xcav8tor]

Hi All,

From past experience I have learned that providing IncRus with a detailed rebuttal to his post would fall on deaf ears and only lead to yet another post, so I will not bother. If however, anyone feels there is any merit to the... ummm... "points"... he raised, and they would like me to respond, please let me know and I will oblige.

Regards,
xcav8tor

[Cowthulu]

Hi All,

From past experience I have learned that providing IncRus with a detailed rebuttal to his post would fall on deaf ears and only lead to yet another post, so I will not bother. If however, anyone feels there is any merit to the... ummm... "points"... he raised, and they would like me to respond, please let me know and I will oblige.

Regards,
xcav8tor

I enjoy reading the rebuttals. Yours have been very insightful and well written. His "theology" is bankrupt and relies on too many assertions such as mistranslations that are he can't prove and are completely erroneous.

However sometimes I learn something I haven't known in the past from rebutting him. Really up to you. Don't worry about trying to convince Incrus. We all know he is even really reading the rebuttals because of either deliberately building a strawman or a failure of reading comprehension. Instead focus on showing other readers his errors.

[xcav8tor]

Hi Cowthulu,

Thank you for your kind remarks.

If I had no time constraints I would be more inclined to reply, but at the moment I am involved in a discussion on the basketball court regarding the Trinity vs the Three Gods of Mormonism. I have only made a few posts here that I felt... "called out to me." I can only spread myself out so thin, so I have to choose what is the best use of my time.

Cheers,
xcav8tor

[Jeremiah333]

Actually it sounds like your friend is a "newbie" because I don't think she is fully aware of what her cult teaches. This being the case, there may still be hope for her.

Good luck,
xcav8tor

Yes she is a newbie. She is still learning about things. They apparently don't like her to ask too many questions. I should tell her to come to this board and she can ask any question she wants.

[faithymom]

Gotta love the irony of claiming to be the sole bearers of truth but refusing to allow honest questions about it.
I find it even worse that I've heard the same sort of "don't ask" stories from legitimate denominations as well.

[IncRus]

Hi All,

From past experience I have learned that providing IncRus with a detailed rebuttal to his post would fall on deaf ears and only lead to yet another post, so I will not bother. If however, anyone feels there is any merit to the... ummm... "points"... he raised, and they would like me to respond, please let me know and I will oblige.

Regards,
xcav8tor

I enjoy reading the rebuttals. Yours have been very insightful and well written. His "theology" is bankrupt and relies on too many assertions such as mistranslations that are he can't prove and are completely erroneous.

However sometimes I learn something I haven't known in the past from rebutting him. Really up to you.

I'm glad you sometimes learn something you haven't known in the past from rebutting my posts. If only for that, I return all honor and glory to my Almighty God and Father.

I'm certain that a lot more TWEB readers feel the same way you do. The way to learn more is to rid your mind of preconceived beliefs to keep it open and receptive to NEW things.

[IncRus]

Yes she is a newbie. She is still learning about things. They apparently don't like her to ask too many questions. I should tell her to come to this board and she can ask any question she wants.

Remind her to RID her mind of preconceived (conceived PRIOR to acxtual knowledge) beliefs, to make her mind OPEN and RECEPTIVE to new and TRUER things.

[JWDisciple]

Hi!

I have a friend who has become a Jehovah's Witness. We've been talking about different things, and she says that Jesus did not exist when Moses led the exodus out of Egypt.

We were discussing this verse here:

Exodus 17:6 (New International Version)
6 I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Isn't that rock Christ? Or is the JW Bible version different?

Thanks!

H4317
מיכאל
mîykâ'êl
BDB Definition:
Michael = “who is like God”

....He is Jehovah's Salvation , or the means through which Jehovah saves ...In the OT we find that Cyrus was Jehovah's means of deliverance for the Jews , from captivity :

Isa 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Isa 44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.


Neh 9:27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD'S.

Jehovah saves , through various means ..including sending "saviours " ...


Michael ( He who is like Jehovah / God ..He who reflects the nature , power and anointing of Jehovah perfectly ...) is the Angelic-Lord of Israel ( all nations have their spirit-lords , and are under the influence of angelic powers/ not all angels are good .. ) ....

He came to His own ( the Jews / Israelites ), becoming a man , uniquely begotten ( mono-genesis ) of a virgin and took upon himself the sin of all of humanity ...He is the glory of Israel , and the archetype and lord of the human race ..He now stands as High Priest before Jehovah , for all humanity .

He is the Prototokos / first born of creation, and holds the highest rank of all creatures ...It is through Him that we approach Jehovah , for without Him , we would remain under the curse of death and destruction .


This is what JWs believe ..

[faithymom]

JWs are wrong.

[JWDisciple]

JWs are wrong.

How so ..