"Mighty God" vs "Almighty God."

[Ninjalan]

Sparko: Thanks for the note. My confusion was not so much the stereotypical JW theology he was citing, it was the unexpected jump from one topic to another. I was assuming he'd challenge the translation of John 1:1, not jump over to talking about Michael. Especially in the context of John.

That does raise a point, though: If Michael really is the Logos of God (which he most obviously is not), then that means God manifested his Word as Michael before he manifested it as Christ. That doesn't change my argument, even though it is a hogwash proposition.

[IncRus]

Hello IncRus,

As I said numerous times on numerous threads, the Trinity doctrine which teaches that "the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit ARE the ONLY ONE true God" is NOT Biblical, and therefore, FALSE!

It even goes against the rules of grammar. Look at your post. You started by saying "there IS only one true God" and you ended up by saying "....ARE this only one true God." The Bible correlates the words "ONLY ONE" to a SINGLE item. The Trinity doctrine, on the CONTRARY, correlates the words "only one" to MORE THAN one items. Sadly, FANATICS are blind to these subtle differences!

Do the inspired scriptures lie when they say that man and woman are to be one flesh? Genesis 2:24

No, the inspired scriptures do NOT lie when they say that man and woman are to be of one flesh. What a man and a woman have in common is "flesh" but they remain DIFFERENT in their nature as humans. One remains a MAN while the other remains a woman.

Jesus and the Father are ONE just as the "body" is ONE (John 17:11, 22-23). What Jesus and the Father have in common is "spirit" (Eph. 4:4) but they remain DIFFERENT in nature: Jesus remains a MAN while the Father remains God. They will NEVER be both ONE God just as a man and a woman will NEVER be both ONE man or ONE woman by virtue of their being "one flesh."

[IncRus]

Hello again IncRus,

There is NO verse in the Bible which clearly identifies Jesus as "JEHOVAH God" NOR is there a verse in the Bible which clearly identifies the Holy Spirit as JEHOVAH God as well. Therefore, the above statement is a MISREPRESENTATION.

Ignoring the evidence isn't going to make it go away IncRus. Since you have ignored it in the past, there is no point repeating it again here.

How could I have ignored something that did NOT exist? All you ever pesented as evidence that Jesus AND the Holy Spirit are JEHOVAH Gods are MISTRANSLATED verses which CONTRADICT what the prophets, Jesus and the apostles CLEARLY taught.

As I said numerous times on numerous threads, the Trinity doctrine which teaches that "the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit ARE the ONLY ONE true God" is NOT Biblical, and therefore, FALSE!

And undoubtedly you will continue to say it numerous more times. Repetition, however, will not make a false statement any less false in the future.

"Of course, I will continue saying this because for as long as you and I live, the TRUTH will always remain that the Bible does NOT teach the FALSE doctrine that "the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit ARE the ONLY true God."

I bet you will continue to say that the Father, the Son AND the Holy Spirit ARE the ONLY true God, for as long as you are a Trinitarian. Repetition, however will NEVER make this FALSE doctrine any less FALSE in the future..

It even goes against the rules of grammar. Look at your post. You started by saying "there IS only one true God" and you ended up by saying "....ARE this only one true God." The Bible correlates the words "ONLY ONE" to a SINGLE item.

Context means nothing to you, does it? What I said IN CONTEXT was:

"The Trinity doctrine on the other hand affirms BIBLICAL MONOTHEISM by saying that THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD,... "

This part of my statement is talking about the NUMBER OF BEINGS, therefore IS was the correct word to use.

"and that THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST TOGETHER ARE THIS ONLY ONE TRUE GOD."

This part of my statement is talking about the NUMBER OF PERSONS, therefore ARE was the correct word to use.

Once again, your objection is based on faulty reasoning and lack of consideration for context.

My objection is in the HYPOCRISY of Trinity advocates. They say Trinity doctrine AFFIRMS Biblical monotheism by saying with their lips, "there IS only one true God." Deep in their heart, however, they CONTRADICT Biblical monotheism by saying, "the Father, AND the Son, AND the Holy Spirit ARE the only true Gods."

"God" is a word that is meant to be addressed ONLY to the CREATOR who is the supreme being. "Man" is a word that is meant to be addressed to a CREATURE other than animals and birds. Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). Therefore, Jesus was NEVER a CREATOR.

The Trinity doctrine, on the CONTRARY, correlates the words "only one" to MORE THAN one items. Sadly, FANATICS are blind to these subtle differences!

Wrong again. The Trinity, when understood, refers to ONLY ONE Being, or "item" as you put it. There is nothing to be gained by misrepresenting the doctrine IncRus. It only hurts your credibility.

I believe I am NOT msrepresenting the Trinity doctrine. I understand perfectly the Trinity as you put it.

You are saying that "there IS only one true God" referring to "being," when in truth and in fact, "there ARE three only true Gods" referring to the "persons" of the Father, AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit, aren't you?

In effect, you are like saying, "there IS only one dog" referring to "specie" when in truth and in fact, there are THREE dogs, referring to "breed," aren't you?

As I said numerous times, the Trinity as you put it CONTRADICTS what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that "there IS only one true God." And the Bible does NOT equivocate whether that "ONLY ONE true God" is a being or a person.

The Bible simply teaches that the "ONLY ONE true God IS the Father" (Isaiah 43:10; 45:6; 46:9; 63:16; 64:8; Mal. 2:10; John 17:3). Besides the Father, there is NO other God.

[JWDisciple]

The following comes from a JW study on John 1:3 :

John 1:3, 4, Punctuation, Staircase Parallelism and Caris.

"What came to be through him was life, and this life was the light of men." New American Bible

..."and without Him nothing was made , that was made." New King James Bible

I often have people writing to me and quoting John 1:3 as it is rendered in the New King James Version, in order to prove to me that Jesus was the creator. As it is written, in the NKJV, it certainly seems to say that, but once we read it in the New American Bible above, we get quite another picture. Going along with the NAB, is the 20th Century NT, NRSV, NAB, NJB, JB, NEB, BBE, HCSB ftn., RSV ftn., RV ftn., Weymouth ftn, ASV ftn, Anchor Bible, Fenton, Schonfield, Lattimore, Translator's New Testament, Funk/Hoover and Rotherham."

• Edited by a Moderator •

Source : http://web.archive.org/web/20031203023328/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/john13.htm

However , after reviewing the above , I do not see how , even with the correction , that is , placing the ending of verse 3 , at the beginning of verse 4 , would significantly change the meaning . One could still argue that " ALL life was created by the Logos , both on earth and in heaven " , not just earthly life , hence Sparko's argument that the logos brought All life , into being , thereby proving that the logos is Jehovah or part of Jehovah , still remains a possible , valid interpretation .

( Calvinists do a very good job of showing how " all " , doesn't necessarily mean ALL without qualification ..."All" can be , "all" within a certain context , rather than an unqualified " ALL " ..however I will admit that John 1:3 can appear to suggest that Jesus is the Creator or at least a co-creator..provided you believe that the logos is a being , and the preexistence Christ . )

The Christadelphians , another Christian sect , share many beliefs with the JWs , however they differ with JWs on the preexistence of Christ . They argue that the Logos is not a person , but rather the plan or blueprint of creation ..They often cite the fact that early English translations rendered "logos" neuter / in an impersonal form :

A Review of Protestant Bibles Before the KJV:

The Geneva Bible – 1560
In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, & without it was made nothing that was made.


Tyndale’s Bible – 1525
In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God: and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing: that made it.


Tyndale’s New Testament – 1530
In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God.
All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made.


Matthew’s Bible – 1537
Used “it” instead of “him" in John 1:3-4.


Coverdale’s Bible – 1539 & 1540
In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde. The same was in the begynnynge with God. All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.


The “Great Bible” of 1539
Used “it” instead of “him” in John 1:3-4.


The Bishop’s Bible – 1568
Used “it” instead of “him” in John 1:3-4.

According to them , there is no justification for seeing the logos as a "he" instead of an "it." ..


Another example of a Christadelphian argument :

1 .

Christ was not literally the Word. He was the word "made flesh". (vs. 14). The Greek word "logos" translated "Word" expresses the divine intention, mind, or purpose.

Young defines "logos" as "a word, speech, matter, reason." In the A.V. "logos" is translated by more than 20 different English words and is used for utterances of men (e.g., John 17:20) as well as those of God (John 5:38).

2

."In the beginning was the Word . . . all things were made by him., "Logos" does not in itself denote personality. It is personified by the masculine gender in the A.V., The Diaglott avoids confusion by translating the pronouns in the neuter - "through it every thing was done."4 An Old Testament parallel to the personification of logos is the personification of wisdom: "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was." (Prov. 8:22, 23). In this passage, wisdom is personified as a woman. (vs. 1, 2).• Edited by a Moderator •

Source : http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/b08trinity/john1v1-3.html

In conclusion , all of the the above argument/s are interesting , however they do not provide conclusive evidence against Sparkos understanding of John 1:3 ...( I recognize that ) ..

Nonetheless , as far as this passage is concerned , due to the various interpretive options , I do not see how it can be used as a PROOF-text for Christ's divinity .

As far as Christ's divinity , I'd say the best evidence that Christians have , are OT passages referring to Jehovah , that are applied to Jesus in the NT ...I asked the JWs that I am studying with , to explain this , and so far they are more or less stumped and unable to give a convincing argument .

When I say " OT passages referring to Jehovah , that are applied to Jesus in the NT " , I am not referring to the common Trinitarian argument that makes use of titles , like , Jehovah is the Savior , Jesus is the Savior = Jesus is Jehovah...Jehovah is King of Israel ..Jesus is King of Israel = Jesus is Jehovah ...Jehovah is the Shepherd , Jesus ....etc or "before Abraham Ego Eimi / I am " ..all those are easily refuted ..


I'm rather referring to passages like :

Jehovah :

Psalm 102:25,
"Of old Thou didst found the earth; and the heavens are the work of Thy hands.

Jesus :

Heb. 1:10,
"And, "Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands"


Jehovah :

Isaiah 45:23
"...... That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."

Jesus :

Phil. 2:10-11,
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


and others ..these types of passages are the ones that make JWs scratch their head ...


Regarding Sparko's insistence that if there is more than one divine being , Jehovah would not be unique and would just be one of many gods ..This is completely unnecessary and unbiblical .

The OT clearly states that there are many elohim / gods ....beings that are immortal , not subject to death and possess great power . The Hebrew word EL or Elohim , more often than not , translated " God " or "gods" , actually denotes "power" and is used in several occasions to describe the powers of nature :

H410
אל
'êl
BDB Definition:
1) god, god-like one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: shortened from H352
Same Word by TWOT Number: 93a

So , there are many powers , and all in one way or another reflect an aspect of Jehovah's glory ..The earth is full of divine glory , if that wasn't the case , this planet would be a lifeless planet like Mercury or Mars ..not much glory or power .

In order for Jehovah to establish a meaningful and intimate relationship with one of His creatures , He must imbue it with a measure of His own nature , in other words , he must deify His Creation , filling it with His own glory , power and majesty , full of life and beauty ..

When a human being wants to relate to a lower ( less complex ) form of life , say an insect or another mammal , be it a rabbit , mouse or a dog , he humanizes it ...In other words he projects His/Her humanity upon the animal , thereby humanizing it ...imbuing it with human like qualities and attributes ...

When this is done , our estimation of the animal , it's value and worth , is increased , and we are able to relate to it , in a more meaningful way . Human beings are unable to relate to insects for example , in a meaningful way , hence our appraisal of them , is quite low ...we can slaughter , without mercy , millions of insects and not lose a minute of sleep over it ..

However could you do the same with a million dolphins or puppies ? A million kittens or chimps ? We could , if we had to , but it would be a lot more difficult for us to do so ...The reason for that is that , we value them more ..our appraisal of these animals is much higher than that of an insect ..Why ? Because they possess more human qualities , they resemble us more ..they are able to interact with us , in a more meaningful way ...

How does this apply to the "gods" or the elohim ? Jehovah creates beings, in order to establish a loving , intimate , meaningful relationship with them ..He wants to give them , Himself ..Why ? Because there is no greater good , than Himself ..How does he do that ?

By projecting or imbuing creatures with as much of His glory or nature as they can handle , or receive ..A created being is "deified" , made divine , by grace , imbued with the out most potential for love , power , freedom , holiness .etc and united , wedded to Jehovah , for all eternity .

So , there are many gods , or divine beings , however , these gods are "gods" / divine not of themselves , but by grace ( they must receive their divine nature from another ..they can't even exist without this "other") ..they receive their divine nature and existence from Jehovah .

Jehovah is unique , and above all the gods ( divine beings ), on account of being the absolute , self-subsisting , unconditional source of all divinity / deity . Jehovah is The "True" God , God with a capital "G" ....There is no being or creature that is equal to Him in power and majesty .

"True" God ...I hear some saying " If Jehovah is the True God , that makes all others false " ...No it doesn't . Paul in the book of Hebrews states that the earthly temple was simply a copy of the "true" temple or tabernacle in heaven ...Was the earthly temple a "false" temple ?

Jesus is the "true" light , and his disciples are also lights , according to the gospel ...does that make Jesus' disciple's "false" lights ...Biblically , the word "true" , can simply mean , the source or origin of something ...The original ...

Jehovah is the True Deity or Original Source ...All other gods or divine beings are simply mere copies , created by Jehovah . Very simple , but for some reason Sparko insists that if there are beings that are "divine" , if there are "gods" , then that somehow undermine's Jehovah's majesty and uniqueness , that is simply not the case .

Moderator Notice

Exceeds "Fair Use" of copyrighted material.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Bill the Cat]

Hello again IncRus,



Ignoring the evidence isn't going to make it go away IncRus.

And ignoring IncRusty doesn't make him go away either, so I'll just settle on making fun of his stupid remarks