When is Divorce OK?

[Queen]

I respect those, Dee Dee....I truly do....But I guess Elysian's safety and sanity comes first. It is emotional, not rational......I worry about her.

Thanks Hon...I know what you mean. I never meant disrespect..

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[Dr T]

Not sure if this will help, but marriage is a very strong contract between two people.

Both parties make promises at the same time and together, before God and in front of all their friends and family.

Isn't the contract broken at the time that these promises are not fulfilled.

So for example by not being faithful (adultary), not cherishing (violence) and so on.

Assuming no change of behaviour or chance of reconcilation, then the marraige contract has already been broken by the other party. Given that the mutual contract has been broken should the non offending party be still bound by it? Isn't the divorce at that time just recognising that the other party has already broken the marriage contract. If some one else breaks a contract you have with them, are you still bound by the terms of that contract?


To put it in a different light, do we think that God wants one of his daughters to be battered by someone who has promised to cherish her?

[themuzicman]

I'll say it again: MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONTRACT.

A contract is a business agreement, an arrangement. It can be kept or broken.

A vow (remember marraige vow?) has a specific exit clause, and only in that case is the vow broken: "UNTIL DEATH DO US PART."

IF we use God as our example, He made a covenant with Israel that was repeatedly violated by Israel, and He acted within His power to return Israel to their part of the covenant.

He even "divorced" Israel for a while, but again returned Israel to Himself.

I think if we follow God's lead, here, we find that separation and conditional reconciliation is what is best prescribed in most situations.

I do agree with Queen that this husband has the potential to be violent, especially if she starts to stand up against being a doormat, and should find a way to be separated and plan for it long term.

But I don't think outright divorce is the answer, unless the unbelieving spouse leaves.

Michael

[Queen]

Muz...He has broken his vows...to love and cherish Elysian.....To have and hold and protect her......

But I think it is hard to see the real pain when you have a good marriage with a spouse that respects you. It is hard to imagine how terrible emotional abuse can be. I know.......I have been there.

Elysian, you are in my thoughts and I hope you'll find a way to be safe and in peace with your faith..

Lots of true love and sunshine,
Queen

[themuzicman]

Apparantly you missed the part where I said to find alternative long term living arrangements, and set conditions for your return.

Certainly this man has not lived up to his obligations under the vow of marriage, but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of change. Moving out just puts the ball into his court: Change or leave. It fits the biblical mandate, and puts her out of harm's way.

Michael

[spl_cadet]

Ordinarily the Catholic Church is completely against divorce. But your situation is a textbook case for receiving an anullment (recognition that the marriage wasn't sacramental), should you return. Improper form (it wasn't Catholic) and the fact that he is abusive towards you indicates that he didn't intend to uphold his marriage vows.

So I'd get out of their as fast as you can.

Muzicman: The Pauline privilege only applies when the two people were both unbelievers, one of them converted, and the other divorced them.

[Queen]

Muz,...
(I love those piggy's!!)

I know what you mean and I understand what you are saying. But I thought he would change as well.......and look at me today....PTSD, depression, suicidal and in therapy to cope with all the past anguish....

I don't want anyone to go through that....not even my worst enemies.....I can't believe that God wants her to suffer so much. That would make Him a cruel God....(IMHO....not to insult your God or anything like that)

I can only hope he will change.....I really hope he will. But I am so afraid that he will hurt her......

To me, like I said before this is personal and I react from my heart, emotional, not my mind.....

Elysian is crying out for help this way!!! Please, she needs to find a way to get out of there.....it is a cry for help!!!!!!

Lots of love and sunshine,
Queen

[themuzicman]

Ah, yes. More Catholic control mechanisms.

Scripture usually cures these things:

But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

Nothing about being an unbeliever when they got married, spl.

Michael

[elysian]

No I don't mind "non-Christian" responses, though as a Christian I am held to God's standard in Scripture, so that is the standard I pray for His grace to be able to follow.

My church does not forbid divorce (it does strongly discourage it) and I would not be cut off from my church if I took that option. I know of many people in my church, including my pastors, who understand my situation and who would support me. I am so thankful to God that I belong to an awesome church. (Lutherans: key word- Grace) They know that for me leaving would be a last resort and it would be with a heavy and penitent heart. I even believe in these instances God does have mercy and He does forgive us, though His grace should never be taken lightly.

But in my conscience I cannot justify it. I cannot justify it in God's word either.

I do believe (and maybe this is a remnant of the good old Catholic guilt) that there are blessings that come from "trials by fire," that if we are obedient to God and we endure, He does bless us.

I do thank God that my husband and I did have a good discussion last night (instead of what he usually does, i.e. getting plastered, ranting for awhile and then passing out) and most of his "problem" is he wants control of finances. He can have it, and therefore get to see what his drinking and gambling does.

So I continue to pray, and stand by God's grace. All things are possible with Him.

[Queen]

Elysian,

I respect your brave decision. You are filled with so much love. I am always here if you need to talk. Just be safe. Take good care of yourself and I hope that your life will have many beautiful moments...

Wish you lots of love and sunshine on the road of life, whatever that road may....I hope it is not too bumpy,
Queen

[spl_cadet]

Today @ 06:30 AM post located here
themuzicman:

Ah, yes. More Catholic control mechanisms.

Scripture usually cures these things:



Nothing about being an unbeliever when they got married, spl.

Michael

Might not be stated explicitly, but it is certtainly understood. These people were already married at the time of their conversion.

[Rubia Warren]

I've been thinking about this a long time.
Many times, when you are married to somebody who is addicted to alcohol, or a gambler, or whatever it may be, many times you get dragged into a lifestyle of dishonesty. Lots of things you just cannot separate, like you can your belief system or going to church on Sunday and the other one doesn't.
We are supposed to be good workers and humble and obedient to our bosses at work, or even have to submit to the government, right? But when it comes down to certain things, we should leave, like if an employer wants you to fudge the books at work and you know it's dishonest and wrong- you should not do it, even if you have to quit your job. I mean, what if the employer refuses to fire you, yet the practices of the company are wrong and dishonest and hurt other people, and THEY JUST WON'T FIRE YOU FOR ABSTAINING?
The same with a marriage (although I know marriage is a bit different than just a job).... what if that unbeliever wants to live with you, won't leave, yet keeps doing dangerously dishonest things- things which put the believer in jeopardy legally and morally? The believer automatically gets dragged into these shady dealings just by being one flesh with that person.
Yeah yeah, I know: seperation.

[themuzicman]

10-24-2003 @ 07:51 PM post located here
spl_cadet:
Might not be stated explicitly, but it is certtainly understood. These people were already married at the time of their conversion.

And we know this how?

[Jaltus]

Because Paul taught Christians to not marry nonChristians, that is how. Take a canonical approach and you will see that spl is right.

[spl_cadet]

There's also the slight fact that people weren't being raised Christian as of yet, and were still all converts.