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January 24th 2009, 02:16 PM #1
Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
This is HUGE. Laus Deo!!!!!* I apologize for any scandal I cause to those who doing a forum search read my old posts written before and during my journey to the Catholic Faith. If you read anything heretical, impious, or just plain wrong, please forgive my ignorance. I submit everything to the Magisterium of the Holy Catholic Church. Praised be Jesus Christ forever and ever! Amen. Also, sorry for the times I was a jerk. Lot's of those!
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January 24th 2009, 07:13 PM #2
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
Why were they excommunicated?
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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January 24th 2009, 10:11 PM #3
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
"Wow, "I thought, "he's never heard of Cardinal Lebebvre and his schism?"
Then I noticed that the late cardinal is never mentioned in this letter--no doubt by intention.
Thus the Holy See can hold to the wrongness of Lefebvre's consecration of four bishops for the SSPX in 1988, but reconcile with the bishops that the Vatican has always held hold valid orders, even though illicit orders. (Illicit because never approved by the Pope.)
Adam
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January 24th 2009, 10:53 PM #4
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
No, I've never heard of it. My awareness of things Catholic in 1988 was nil. I *might* have known that John Paul II was pope.
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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January 25th 2009, 05:30 PM #5
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
I read about this a few days ago. The (AP I think?) headline was something like "Pope to un-excommunicate holocaust denier".
"Years ago, I mean decades ago, I read a quote about politicians performing quid pro quo favors for campaign cash, and whether or not we could prove it. The guy who was quoted opined that it was difficult to determine. He noted that in many cases, the payoff might not take the form of votes on legislative action -- those might be detectable, and so are avoided -- but could take subtler forms, like the question that is never asked at a hearing.
The media's doing a terrific job of not asking questions it doesn't want to know the answer to. It doesn't ask these questions in bulk, and the great volume of questions it doesn't ask makes it cheap to not ask questions.
And it passes these savings on to you, the customer." Ace
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January 25th 2009, 05:58 PM #6
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was a French archbishop who rejected most of the reforms introduced at the Second Vatican Council. He went into formal schism with Rome by consecrating 4 bishops against the expressed wishes of the Holy Father. Since that time, the Vatican has been negotiating with Lefebvre's followers, formally known as the Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX). Because Lefebvre himself was a validly consecrated bishop, the 4 bishops he consecrated are also perfectly valid, but illicit. Therefore, all priests ordained by the SSPX are also valid Catholic priests, but they exist outside the Church proper.
Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have made it a personal priority to bring them back into the fold.
There have been some notable steps in recent years, but I am somewhat skeptical at this latest, spectacluar step by Benedict. Three of the 4 SSPX bishops seem to be making good-faith efforts to work out their legitimate points of contention, but the 4th, the English bishop Richard Williamson, has gone off the deep end, I fear. He is a validly consecrated bishop of the Church, but his personal views on the Holocaust are both appalling and laughable.
In principal, I welcome the efforts between the Vatican and the SSPX toward reunification, but I fear Pope Benedict XVI may have been too generous too soon with his latest step. Only God knows, but the rest of us will know shortly."Even religion, though it goes beyond logic, cannot go against it; if it did, it would literally be unbelievable."
- Peter Kreeft, Socratic Logic (3rd ed.)
Gott, der barmherzige Vater, hat durch den Tod und die Auferstehung seines Sohnes die Welt mit sich versöhnt und den Heiligen Geist gesandt zur Vergebung der Sünden. Durch den Dienst der Kirche schenke er dir Verzeihung und Frieden. So spreche ich dich los von deinen Sünden im Namen des Vaters und des Sohnes und des Heiligen Geistes. Amen.
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January 25th 2009, 06:30 PM #7
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
Interesting. That's a bit different than the Orthodox tradition, which requires at least two (generally three) bishops to ordain another bishop. Also, any act that causes schism invalidates that person's actions from that time forward, so the four consecrations and any following would have been invalid.
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Orthodox Church in America locator<><Ancient Faith Radio<><Buy books here & support TheologyWeb!
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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January 25th 2009, 08:25 PM #8
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
You're right in line with the Pope here, OBP.
Pope Benedict XVI merely rescinded henceforth the legal effect of the 1988 ex-communication of the four bishops consecrated at that time by Cardinal Lefebvre and another bishop with him (both deceased). This leaves unchanged that the Pope does not regard any of the four bishops as licitly bishops nor that any of their priests are licit. They can say Mass, but they have no faculties from a licit RC bishop to absolve penitents nor even to marry any man and woman who come to them for the sacrament.
I would guess Rome will come to terms with three of the four bishops to some sort of recognition of faculties, but will never accept the antisemitic Bishop Williamson in England. The lifting of the excommunication really undercuts Bp. Williamson, because now the other three more reasonable SSPX bishops have received some room to work with Rome instead of remaining in schism.'
That still leaves unaffected the bishop of the more reactionary Society of Saint Pius V (not X) that rejects all compromise--not to mention the even more disaffected sedevacantists who don't recognize Pope Benedict XVI (and didn't recognize John Paul II either, most of them not Paul Vi as well) and the yet more far-out adherents of various antipopes currently extant (most notably the Palmarian Catholic Church and also the Apostles of the Infinite Love of St. Jovite, Quebec, both of whom had or has its own Gregory (XVII) as antipope.
Adam
Edited to add: The Associated Press has a news release by Nicole Winfield published in two newspapers I get. The longer version has 15 paragraphs and about 18 column inches. Your own newspaper may shorten what it publishes. Inside the Vatican has the complete story, but you must be a subscriber, and I don't feel free to copy it in from the other website where I found copies of the Vatican letter and Bishop Fellay's initial request and his reply to the lifting of the edict. It's in the RC section of the website I won't name here (that I presume is the website that banned our founders).Last edited by Adam; January 25th 2009 at 08:41 PM. Reason: Link to more info
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January 26th 2009, 01:06 AM #9
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
The Catholic understanding of the consecration of a Bishop is similar, I think, but not exactly as you have described for the Orthodox procedure. I simply did not go to the effort of typing the Catholic details earlier. At Catholic episcopal consecrations, three bishops usually lay hands on the bishop-elect. This is, however, simply a matter of practicality, as far as I know, the theory being that the chance of an invalid episcopal consecration is virtually nothing if three bishops all participate. It only takes one, however. It's not as if one bishop doesn't have enough "consecrating power," and only by combining his power with 2 other bishops can they get the whole thing to succeed.
As far as I understand your post, the Orthodox idea is not compatible with Catholic thinking on this point. A priest or bishop is always capable of performing priestly or episcopal functions validly merely by virtue of his priestly ordination/episcopal consecration. I believe this would go back to the idea of "You are a priest forever unto the order of Melchizidek." Once the Holy Spirit has marked a person's soul with the priestly or episcopal character, that mark cannot be removed. That is why the SSPX sacraments are valid, but not licit. They are valid because they have received the sacrament of holy orders, but illicit because they are not exercising that sacramental authority in line with the structures of the Church as a whole. That is why the SSPX is an issue at all. From what you wrote, I take it that the Orthodox in this situation would simply write the SSPX off as irrelevant since they are schismatics, and therefore nothing they do has any validity, so why worry about them. Is that correct, that the Orthodox would simply consider them to be "playing Church" without any real spiritual efficacy? A very interesting idea.Also, any act that causes schism invalidates that person's actions from that time forward, so the four consecrations and any following would have been invalid."Even religion, though it goes beyond logic, cannot go against it; if it did, it would literally be unbelievable."
- Peter Kreeft, Socratic Logic (3rd ed.)
Gott, der barmherzige Vater, hat durch den Tod und die Auferstehung seines Sohnes die Welt mit sich versöhnt und den Heiligen Geist gesandt zur Vergebung der Sünden. Durch den Dienst der Kirche schenke er dir Verzeihung und Frieden. So spreche ich dich los von deinen Sünden im Namen des Vaters und des Sohnes und des Heiligen Geistes. Amen.
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January 26th 2009, 02:12 PM #10
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
Yeah, the only reason the Orthodox use more than one bishop to consecrate another bishop is an effort to prevent a rogue bishop from consecrating other bishops who agree with him. IIRC the practice stems from the Christological debates of the 4th-5th centuries.
Yes, that's how I understand it. It would take reunification to make their actions efficacious, and they would be retroactively validated by the reunification.As far as I understand your post, the Orthodox idea is not compatible with Catholic thinking on this point. A priest or bishop is always capable of performing priestly or episcopal functions validly merely by virtue of his priestly ordination/episcopal consecration. I believe this would go back to the idea of "You are a priest forever unto the order of Melchizidek." Once the Holy Spirit has marked a person's soul with the priestly or episcopal character, that mark cannot be removed. That is why the SSPX sacraments are valid, but not licit. They are valid because they have received the sacrament of holy orders, but illicit because they are not exercising that sacramental authority in line with the structures of the Church as a whole. That is why the SSPX is an issue at all. From what you wrote, I take it that the Orthodox in this situation would simply write the SSPX off as irrelevant since they are schismatics, and therefore nothing they do has any validity, so why worry about them. Is that correct, that the Orthodox would simply consider them to be "playing Church" without any real spiritual efficacy? A very interesting idea.
Veritas vos Liberabit<><Learn Greek<>< Orthodox Church in America locator<><Ancient Faith Radio<><Buy books here & support TheologyWeb!
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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February 6th 2009, 02:10 PM #11
Re: Excommunications of SSPX Bishops lifted
I've wondered about this issue for a long time. Especially in light of the Syrian Jacobites, and if there were to be unity with them in the future, since their whole line of bishops came from basically one bishop - Jacobus.
I don't think that is is retroactively validated; I think that it is just made proper. It's like having a car without an engine and then at reception into the Church, receiving an engine. I've also read that on OrthodoxAnswers that "valid", a word taken from St. Ignatius of Antioch, is a mistranslation of a word that is not necessarily legal, being better translated as "assured."Yes, that's how I understand it. It would take reunification to make their actions efficacious, and they would be retroactively validated by the reunification.O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. - St Athanasius of Alexandria
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Another Orthodox apologetics site: http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/ - Not a supporter of all his views however.
Orthodox Church history lectures: http://orthodoxchurchhistory.com/
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