Who Is The Creator?

[Johnny MacManky]

“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” Rev 4:11, NWT
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, . . .. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, . . .. NWT
So, according to the NWT in Rev 4:11, "Jehovah . . . created all things". Yet, according to Col 1:15-20 this creator being suffered on the torture stake.

Just who is The Creator?

John1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. NWT
http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1

Answers, from Jehovah Witnesses in this thread please. Much appreciated. Thanks.

eta: Yeah, and we all know that the [other]'s in Col ain't actually there in the Greek, not even in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek.

[IncRus]

“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” Rev 4:11, NWT
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, . . .. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, . . .. NWT
So, according to the NWT in Rev 4:11, "Jehovah . . . created all things". Yet, according to Col 1:15-20 this creator being suffered on the torture stake.

Just who is The Creator?

John1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. NWT
http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1

Answers, from Jehovah Witnesses in this thread please. Much appreciated. Thanks.

eta: Yeah, and we all know that the [other]'s in Col ain't actually there in the Greek, not even in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek.

• Edited by a Moderator •

[xcav8tor]

• Edited by a Moderator •

[JB]

Moderated By: JB

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[evantisin]

“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” Rev 4:11, NWT
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, . . .. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, . . .. NWT
So, according to the NWT in Rev 4:11, "Jehovah . . . created all things". Yet, according to Col 1:15-20 this creator being suffered on the torture stake.

Just who is The Creator?

John1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. NWT
http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1

Answers, from Jehovah Witnesses in this thread please. Much appreciated. Thanks.

There is a difference between Jesus' role in creation and that of God's. God is the Creator and the source while "the Word" was used by God. Wherever the scriptures refer to Jesus' role in creation, the Greek says that creation was done "through" ("dia" in Greek) and "in" ("en") Jesus. However, they never say that creation came forth "from" Jesus or that creation was done "by" Jesus. Consider the passage of Colossians you cited:

Colossians 1:16 (American Standard Version)

16 for in (en) him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through (di) him, and unto him;

Consider that other verses of scripture on Jesus' role in creation reflect this as well:

Hebrews 1:1-2 (American Standard Version)

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners,

2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in (en) his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through (di) whom also he made the worlds;

1 Corinthians 8:6 (American Standard Version)

6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom (di ou) are all things, and we through (di) him.

John 1:3 (American Standard Version)

3 All things were made through (di) him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

God is the sole creator and the Word/Jesus/Son was "co-creator" only in the sense of having been used by God to help in creation. Jesus was not the Creator or another actual God. In a sense, the pre-incarnate Jesus was used as "the arm of the LORD" (John 12:38). "The Word" was an archangel of some sort and used in that sense. I hope that explains enough of it, but let me know if you'd like further information on Jesus as a "co-creator" or "helper."

eta: Yeah, and we all know that the [other]'s in Col ain't actually there in the Greek, not even in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek.

Yes. The placement of brackets humbly implies that its to convey a more exact meaning.

This is like putting choice words from the suggested footnotes (i.e. the New International Version, New American Standard Version) into the scripture.

[Cal_Minian]

“You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.” Rev 4:11, NWT
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, . . .. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, . . .. NWT
So, according to the NWT in Rev 4:11, "Jehovah . . . created all things". Yet, according to Col 1:15-20 this creator being suffered on the torture stake.

Just who is The Creator?

John1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. NWT
http://www.watchtower.org/bible/index.htm?bk=re;chp=1

Answers, from Jehovah Witnesses in this thread please. Much appreciated. Thanks.

eta: Yeah, and we all know that the [other]'s in Col ain't actually there in the Greek, not even in the Kingdom Interlinear Greek.

It is not just JWs who understand that Colossians 1 does not teach the Son is the creator. The problem is that some English translations make it appear that he is, but not when one looks at the Greek. Note the NRSV:

NRS Colossians 1:16 for in (1 )him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers -- all things have been created through (2) him and for him.

(1) BDAG EN - 4. marker of close association within a limit, in... everything was created in association with him 1:16

(2) BDAG DIA - Christ as intermediary in the creation of the world J 1:3, 10; 1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16.

BDAG is the Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon financed by the Lutheran Missouri Synod.

Two points.

1) The Greek word is EN and that is literally "in". In the context of Colossians 1 the new creation, the body of Christ are created literally in him.
2) The Greek preposition DIA in this context indicates that someone created through the Son, not that the Son was the ultimate agent in creation.

When looking at other passages one sees that the Father makes all things through the Son, bu t it is the Father who is the maker, through the Son. Consider Hebrews 1:2:

ASV Hebrews 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Note that the Father made the worlds. He made them through the Son. But the Father is the one who is the one who is the grammatical maker in the Greek.

Much more could be said. Hope this helps.

-Cal

[xcav8tor]

...2) The Greek preposition DIA in this context indicates that SOMEONE created THROUGH the Son, that the Son was NOT the ultimate agent in creation. (slight revision for clarity - xcav8tor)

...Note that the Father made the worlds. He made them through the Son. But the Father is the one who is the one who is the grammatical maker in the Greek.

-Cal

Rom. 11:33-36 NRSV
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of GOD! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of THE LORD? Or who has been his counselor?" "Or who has given a gift to him, to receive a gift in return?" For from him and THROUGH HIM and to him ARE ALL THINGS. To him be the glory forever. Amen.

Obviously Paul is talking here about God the Father. Apply your argument to this text and tell us what you come up with.

[enedraAT]

Obviously Paul is talking here about God the Father. Apply your argument to this text and tell us what you come up with. [/QUOTE]

probly resurrecting an old post, but...

Dont have to, as..:
Romans 11:36= εξ αυτου και δι αυτου
ek di [form of dia]

Heb. 1:2= δι᾿ οὗ καὶ τοὺς αἰῶνας ἐποίησεν
di
Heb. 2:10= ἔπρεπε γὰρ αὐτῷ, δι᾿ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι᾿ οὗ τὰ πάντα
di di
when applied to the Son "dia" is lacks "ek" meaning that it would be passive, or 'thru'
but with the father, 'ek...dia', "ek" means origin, meaning causal 'dia', meaning the Father is the source.

hope this makes sense, as Im still learning greek

[enedraAT]

noticed my mistake "ex" not "ek"

[barnasha]

Is "God the Father" a concept of Paul or of modern Christianity?

[enedraAT]

I should've put "God, the father"

[OneFollowingHim]

without him was not anything made that hath been made

Given without Him was not anything made that hath been made (John 1:3), place Jesus after one of the following:

All things that never came into being (hath not been made) =
All things that have come into being (hath been made) =

[zviabatel]

hello
in hebrew the creator is "HA-BO-RE" the one who created all, but the true meaning by kaballa is habore is "bo-u-re" =come and see
meaning we first should fined him with in, the creator gave us "the dot in the heart" and we have to develope and search god's line with in ourselves when bad things that happens to us are for the good, to teach us what we should realy search,the spiritual way,and each time we progres this point or this dot develops to something bigger and bigger,catching only love within and influence it to others
thanks
zvia