Africa's Witch Menace

[Pai Geacademe]

One commonality of many religions is the belief in witches. Witches are believed to tap dark forces and channel dead people. The belief in witches is rooted in ignorance and the human tendency to assign blame to things they don’t understand.

In the Africa, witchsmellery is very much alive and well. When someone dies or something bad happens in a community, the people are aggrieved and want an explanation for the thing that happened. The shaman or fetish priest is tasked with explaining it and recommending punishment for the person responsible. Usually, some ritual is performed, like the sacrifice of a chicken, to identify the culprit. The ritual identifies the witch and she (almost always a "she") is burned alive or banished from the community. The community is temporarily mollified until the next famine or unexpected death.

These Africans have more in common with Moses and the ANE culture than with us—especially in their perception of cause and effect. When something bad happened in the ANE, an explanation was sought. Sacraments and rituals were conducted by the priests to identify the witch (or witches) who cursed the community with drought, sandstorms, individual deaths, etc. This, and the resulting sacrifices, gave the communities a sense of control over their environment.

I would submit the motivations of the ancient Canaanites and Hebrews were exactly the same as African shamans and the communities who believe them. The evidence that witches tapped supernatural forces to effect evil ends was just as paltry back then as it is today. Proving the Hebrews were different would be an unenviable chore.

Here’s a documentary on the Great Commission’s failure to conquer this superstition in Africa. Christianity is simply being force-fit into prevailing beliefs going back thousands of years. Have a hanky at the ready, because it's one the the saddest films you'll ever see. It investigates the persecution of innocent women and torture of children by Christian zealots in Nigeria. The problem spans all of Africa.

Again, I ask, where’s the QA/QC in the Great Commission? It’s seems like a never-ending cycle of missionizing and remissionizing with no game plan whatsoever.

[Mountain Man]

For one thing, the Great Commission doesn't include torture.

Secondly, where in the Bible do you see Moses instructing the priests to conduct sacraments and rituals for the purpose of finding witches who had brought calamity on the people?

[RBerman]

Pai, you're right that missionary efforts are often ad hoc and piecemeal. That's not a critique of the Great Commission itself, but it is a sad commentary on those who see themselves as carrying it out. The syncretization of Christian beliefs into shamanism is another black mark against evangelistic success.

As far as the Hebrews, at least as depicted in the Bible, sacrifices were made for sin, but I can't think of any that were made to change the weather. And human sacrifice was explicitly forbidden in the worship of Yahweh, and roundly condemned by the Bible in those surrounding cultures which practiced it.

[Pai Geacademe]

For one thing, the Great Commission doesn't include torture.
:

I totally agree. The Great Commission says preach the gospel to all nations. That’s what your Pentecostal brethren did in Nigeria.

Again I ask: where’s the QA/QC in the Great Commission? In Nigeria, the Christians swooped in, told the Nigerians about “their” Jesus and then apparently left. This is what the Bible tells them to do, and it creates huge problems. Not the least of which is identifying the regions that need no more missionizing! I daresay the Pentecostals who exacerbated this crisis now consider the region “Christian” and, thus, no more in need of being sermonized.

There’s no game plan. None of the factions are communicating with each other. With disunity like that, what’s the point of the Great Commission?

I’ll give you another example. The Crouches consider their work part of the Great Commission. Do you go where their “gospel” has been preached to remissionize those cultures? Or do you pass the buck to God and let him sort out the mess? How are these things determined?

Secondly, where in the Bible do you see Moses instructing the priests to conduct sacraments and rituals for the purpose of finding witches who had brought calamity on the people?

I didn't mean to say that. The Bible says Moses did no such thing. He only ordered the stoning of witches without a trial. His was the exact same mentality of those Nigerians: eradicate the threat so she doesn’t infect the tribe. It was superstition gone amuck.

MM, ask yourself what person in her right mind would embrace witchcraft after seeing acts of extraordinary divine providence and rescue, such as the ancient Hebrews experienced. Isn’t more likely that the Hebrews blamed individuals within the tribe for calamity and misfortune? Moses ordered the snapping of infants’ necks, fer criminy. In light of that moral standard, it is not unreasonable to conclude some were unjustly condemned because of religious paranoia.

PBS has been making some extraordinary programs lately. Here’s the NOVA series on the origin of the Hebrews.

[lilpixieofterror]

I didn't mean to say that. The Bible says Moses did no such thing. He only ordered the stoning of witches without a trial. His was the exact same mentality of those Nigerians: eradicate the threat so she doesn’t infect the tribe. It was superstition gone amuck.

Thanks for showing that you clearly have not read the Bible because the law says nothing of the sort. A person can not be put to death on the testimony of one person and if you actually did your research instead of just opening your mouth and letting stupidity flow forth you'd discover that the verse in the law that is translated to "you shall not allow a witch to live" is more accuratly translated to a person who kills using the dark arts shall not be allowed to live. In other words, it's not saying that you go on witch hunts and murder them at all and the law makes it clear that there was a trial before anybody was put to death and if the evidence didn't match up, they went free. Did you process that or did you need a few more years to process those facts?

PBS has been making some extraordinary programs lately. Here’s the NOVA series on the origin of the Hebrews.

PBS's Nova series is great when it comes to science, but tends to screw up matters of religion by using the most liberal and bias sources possible while ignoring all alternative ideas that counter it. Judging by your poor reading comperhension of the OT, it doesn't suprise me that you listen to whatever you're told (as long as it's anti religious) without question.

[Pai Geacademe]

Thanks for showing that you clearly have not read the Bible because the law says nothing of the sort. A person can not be put to death on the testimony of one person and if you actually did your research instead of just opening your mouth and letting stupidity flow forth you'd discover that the verse in the law that is translated to "you shall not allow a witch to live" is more accuratly translated to a person who kills using the dark arts shall not be allowed to live. In other words, it's not saying that you go on witch hunts and murder them at all and the law makes it clear that there was a trial before anybody was put to death and if the evidence didn't match up, they went free. Did you process that or did you need a few more years to process those facts?

I'm just trying to get my mind around "a person who kills using the dark arts." How exactly is that accomplished, and how exactly is that verified? It's also precisely what many of those children were accused of in Nigeria. Whole villages nodded assent to the banishments and killings, citing perceived "evidence."

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm just trying to get my mind around "a person who kills using the dark arts." How exactly is that accomplished, and how exactly is that verified?

Witnesses... Remember... even in the US forensic science hasn't always been used. Crimes then as well as today were solved by looking at the evidence and going from there. Unless of course your argument is, "Duh! Religious people are stupid and non religious people are smart and would never kill people for things that I don't think are true." Not only is this line of reasoning downright bigotry, it begs the question too.

It's also precisely what many of those children were accused of in Nigeria. Whole villages nodded assent to the banishments and killings, citing perceived "evidence."

And did they have two or more witnesses as well as deaths that could not be explained by any other means or are you just desprate to make religious people look stupid (yep, like it's common then as well as today to kill people for witchcraft) and non-religious look intelligent. This is called 'poisioning the well' and is a classic tatic of fundies of all sides (religious and non-religious).

[Pai Geacademe]

Witnesses... Remember... even in the US forensic science hasn't always been used. Crimes then as well as today were solved by looking at the evidence and going from there.

Evidence that someone murdered someone using the dark arts? What would that consist of exactly?

Unless of course your argument is, "Duh! Religious people are stupid and non religious people are smart and would never kill people for things that I don't think are true." Not only is this line of reasoning downright bigotry, it begs the question too.

I don’t think it’s bigotry to simply ask what how a “darks arts murder” would be proved. You’d ask the same thing if you were one of those African children.

And did they have two or more witnesses

What would they be witness to, exactly? Examples, please. How is a dark arts murder verified?

as well as deaths that could not be explained by any other means

Would death by natural causes fall within that category? What do you mean by “could not be explained by any other means”?

or are you just desprate to make religious people look stupid (yep, like it's common then as well as today to kill people for witchcraft) and non-religious look intelligent.

No. I just wanted to show the extent of superstitious cognition and the similarities between those Nigerians and the ANE. From what you told me about dark arts murder trials, it looks very similar to what’s happening in these African communities. A mysterious death occurs. A community is shocked and aggrieved. An explanation is needed. Witchcraft comes in handy as that explanation. Mosaic witch murder gives them that extra level of surety they are doing the right thing.

It may very well be different, but you aren’t explaining how. You’re just being hostile and cute.

This is called 'poisioning the well' and is a classic tatic of fundies of all sides (religious and non-religious).

I’ve only highlighted the aftermath of Pentecostal proselytism here and, in the process, asked some interesting questions about the Great Commission.

[Chaotic Void]

I totally agree. The Great Commission says preach the gospel to all nations. That’s what your Pentecostal brethren did in Nigeria.

Again I ask: where’s the QA/QC in the Great Commission? In Nigeria, the Christians swooped in, told the Nigerians about “their” Jesus and then apparently left. This is what the Bible tells them to do, and it creates huge problems.

I'm calling BullFeathers on the Bolded statement.

The Great Commision says to make disciples of all nations, baptize them, and teach them. What you say the Pentecostals did in Nigeria was not following the Great Commission but, at best, a half-baked attempt.

Do everyone a favor: if you're going to criticize something, at least try to do your homework...

[Pai Geacademe]

I'm calling BullFeathers on the Bolded statement.

The Great Commision says to make disciples of all nations, baptize them, and teach them. What you say the Pentecostals did in Nigeria was not following the Great Commission but, at best, a half-baked attempt.

Do everyone a favor: if you're going to criticize something, at least try to do your homework...

Moderate Christian factions were already there and well established. Presumably they taught the Nigerians to be disciples, but it didn't take. The Pentecostals thought the problem was a lack of Holy Ghost, and came in the fix the problem.

So my question about the Great Commission still remains. If Catholics, for example, stayed with these Nigerians until the message "sunk in," does John MacArthur follow the Catholics to undo the doctrinal damage? This is a very reasonable question.

What's the criteria for putting the "reached" flag on these maps?

[lilpixieofterror]

Evidence that someone murdered someone using the dark arts? What would that consist of exactly?

Is your little mind having a hard time wraping itself around the concept of witnesses?

I don’t think it’s bigotry to simply ask what how a “darks arts murder” would be proved. You’d ask the same thing if you were one of those African children.

More emotinalism I see. More African Children die from things like starvation, war, and disease then ever die from these 'witch hunts'. Your real purpose for bring this up is a selfish desire to make religion look stupid. You are using their deaths to further your case. You're almost as bad as those who did the actions to begin with.

What would they be witness to, exactly? Examples, please. How is a dark arts murder verified?

Wow, that droll is really running down your chin. Let us start slowly... you tell me you robbed a bank, could I be used as a witness at your trail? Processing yet or do you need more time to fully understand what a witness is? You verify it by a chain of witnesses and ruling out other causes, like sickness or traditional murder.

Would death by natural causes fall within that category? What do you mean by “could not be explained by any other means”?

Just as it means... nothing else killed them. Did your little mind process that yet or does it need a few more days to understand that phrase?

No. I just wanted to show the extent of superstitious cognition and the similarities between those Nigerians and the ANE. From what you told me about dark arts murder trials, it looks very similar to what’s happening in these African communities. A mysterious death occurs. A community is shocked and aggrieved. An explanation is needed. Witchcraft comes in handy as that explanation. Mosaic witch murder gives them that extra level of surety they are doing the right thing.

How many witch hunts the those of the ANE go on? Very few or even none that I'm aware of, but then again... your whole argument is, "DUH! This group put witches to death, people of the ANE were stupid like this, so that means that ancient people are stupid!" You are aware that the ANE had quite a bit of science and technology going for it, right? That is one of the first areas of the world were people begin to build cities. Language, math, science, etc all got their start in the ancient world so sorry... the ancient people are not stupid, despite your rather silly argument you've made this far. The only thing you want to do here is this... "DUH! Ancient people are stupid!" and ignore everything else they did. Bigotry and stupidity at it's best!

It may very well be different, but you aren’t explaining how. You’re just being hostile and cute.

Sure I am, you're either trolling, stupid, or just this dense. Witness means just as it means anywhere else, what makes this case different or do you rule out the supernatural in advance and argue based upon that?

I’ve only highlighted the aftermath of Pentecostal proselytism here and, in the process, asked some interesting questions about the Great Commission.

No you didn't, you only have one goal... to make religious people look stupid. Thus you're just a troll that will be treated as such... you're not here to discuss or debate anything. You are here to convience yourself of what you already believe. There is no point in treating you like an honest doubter, when you are not.

[Mountain Man]

I totally agree. The Great Commission says preach the gospel to all nations. That’s what your Pentecostal brethren did in Nigeria.

Again I ask: where’s the QA/QC in the Great Commission? In Nigeria, the Christians swooped in, told the Nigerians about “their” Jesus and then apparently left. This is what the Bible tells them to do, and it creates huge problems. Not the least of which is identifying the regions that need no more missionizing! I daresay the Pentecostals who exacerbated this crisis now consider the region “Christian” and, thus, no more in need of being sermonized.

There’s no game plan. None of the factions are communicating with each other. With disunity like that, what’s the point of the Great Commission?

The problem is not the Great Commission itself but in how some Christians choose to practice it. Is that what you're saying?

The Bible says Moses did no such thing. He only ordered the stoning of witches without a trial.

Hold on a minute. Where in the Bible does it say that Moses ordered that witches -- or anybody else for that matter -- be stoned without a trial?

[Manwë Súlimo]

Where in the Bible does it say that Moses ordered that witches -- or anybody else for that matter -- be stoned without a trial?

Probably in that part where Moses ordered the suspected witch to be put on a scale with a duck. :-)

[Mountain Man]

Probably in that part where Moses ordered the suspected witch to be put on a scale with a duck. :-)

In other words, Pai Geacademe found the reference somewhere between the pages he uses to roll up whatever it is he's smoking.

[Pai Geacademe]

Is your little mind having a hard time wraping itself around the concept of witnesses?

No, but witnesses to what, exactly?

Remember, there were also witnesses at Fatima and Lourdes. I don’t find them compelling simply because they claim to have witnessed an extraordinary event. Do you?

More emotinalism I see. More African Children die from things like starvation, war, and disease then ever die from these 'witch hunts'. Your real purpose for bring this up is a selfish desire to make religion look stupid. You are using their deaths to further your case. You're almost as bad as those who did the actions to begin with.

I just wrote a polemic on the Great Commission and vestigial superstitious cognition. You really think that’s equivalent to child torture? My link may inspire Christians to alleviate their suffering.

You seem to be more concerned about your hurt feelings than those children. This ain’t about you but them. The man in charge of helping these orphans needs help, pix.

You verify it by a chain of witnesses and ruling out other causes, like sickness or traditional murder.

What about natural causes? What about a stroke (which is a sickness they wouldn’t be able to identify in the ANE)? Are you saying that, absent an obvious cause of death, someone was singled out and dark arts became the only explanation?

Also, how did proximity factor in? Would the accused have to have been within range of the victim? Or could dark arts be used to kill someone miles away? In such a case, how would they have determined causation?

PG: Would death by natural causes fall within that category? What do you mean by “could not be explained by any other means”?

Pix: Just as it means... nothing else killed them. Did your little mind process that yet or does it need a few more days to understand that phrase?

In light of silent killers like strokes and SIDS, for which no diagnosis was possible in pre-scientific times, this raises more questions than it answers. A baby could die a natural death, and a mother with a vendetta could simply charge an enemy with “dark arts.” Two others who shared the animosity could be the “witnesses.” Causation couldn’t be proved. The accused gets stoned by a “drolling” self-righteous mob.

That’s exactly the mentality in Africa. The setting is different, but the respect of superstitious explanations is exactly the same. So far, you’ve said nothing that makes the Mosaic trials look fair at all.

How many witch hunts the those of the ANE go on? Very few or even none that I'm aware of, but then again... your whole argument is, "DUH! This group put witches to death, people of the ANE were stupid like this, so that means that ancient people are stupid!" You are aware that the ANE had quite a bit of science and technology going for it, right?

I don’t think they were stupid. You keep citing a lack of intelligence, but I haven’t once cited low IQs as explaining witchsmellery. It’s way more interesting than that!

That is one of the first areas of the world were people begin to build cities. Language, math, science, etc all got their start in the ancient world so sorry... the ancient people are not stupid, despite your rather silly argument you've made this far. The only thing you want to do here is this... "DUH! Ancient people are stupid!" and ignore everything else they did. Bigotry and stupidity at it's best!

Again, you keep saying intelligence is a factor. Why?

Regarding science in the ANE, I don’t think one’s facility at constructing temples translates to an accurate perception of reality. We’re talking about distorted perceptions of reality. Attributing a SIDS death to a ‘dark artist’ suggests a distorted perception of reality. Fear explains that distortion, not low IQ.

you're either trolling, stupid, or just this dense. Witness means just as it means anywhere else, what makes this case different or do you rule out the supernatural in advance and argue based upon that?

I’m simply asking you for their methodology in determining causation, which you’ve yet to explain. If the dark arts could be proved, as you claim, I’m very interested in the science of it.

PG: I’ve only highlighted the aftermath of Pentecostal proselytism here and, in the process, asked some interesting questions about the Great Commission.

Pix: No you didn't, you only have one goal... to make religious people look stupid. Thus you're just a troll that will be treated as such... you're not here to discuss or debate anything. You are here to convience yourself of what you already believe. There is no point in treating you like an honest doubter, when you are not.

I counted eight stupids here. Can you explain how the ancient Hebrews’ determined causation now?