Africa's Witch Menace

[PolarBeer]

itness means just as it means anywhere else, what makes this case different or do you rule out the supernatural in advance and argue based upon that?

Indeed, I suspect this is exactly what Pai would expect to happen; my impression was that the thread was started with the notion of real witches killing people via the "dark arts" dismissed out of hand. I have to confess, I assumed the same thing until I saw your replies. On the other hand, perhaps you're just toying with Pai at this point; I can never quite tell when people are being serious while describing things so foreign to my worldview.

[lilpixieofterror]

Sigh... I see the droll just keeps running down his chin...

No, but witnesses to what, exactly?

Remember, there were also witnesses at Fatima and Lourdes. I don’t find them compelling simply because they claim to have witnessed an extraordinary event. Do you?

More distractions and strawmen arguments to avoid addressing the post. We are not talking about Fatima and Lourdes, now are we? Nope, we are talking about rather or not witnesses are a valid source to discover the truth of an event. The fact is that witnesses are commonly used in trials in every western country. I know this is going to blow your mind, but the only time the credibility of a witness is put into serious doubt is when it is shown that the witness lied or unable to give an accurate statement (such as mental disease). Are you understanding

I just wrote a polemic on the Great Commission and vestigial superstitious cognition. You really think that’s equivalent to child torture? My link may inspire Christians to alleviate their suffering.

Please show a single verse in the entire NT that says that you should tocture children. I sure didn't find that in the Great commission, but the usual argument of a fundy...

1. Pull one isolated case.
2. Pretend this isolated case is how all religious people act.
3. Therefore, Christians are stupid!

Your argument is full of so many errors, it's laughable. However; you are either just trolling for the fun of it or just too stupid to see your own errors. My job now is to figure out what one it is.

You seem to be more concerned about your hurt feelings than those children. This ain’t about you but them. The man in charge of helping these orphans needs help, pix.

And again he says something stupid and just tries emotionalism over facts. Sorry, not hurt feelings at all, but my objecting is to you using one event to say, "DUH! This must mean the ancient people are stupid!" Do you really want to play this game? If so I will take your logic and show how terrible and horrible our society is, do you want me to do this or will you just drop the dumb argument? In reality, you are dishonoring the memories of all those who died to further your own agenda; you're no better then those who use 9/11 as justification to lock hundreds of innocent people into prision just because of their religion or background.

What about natural causes? What about a stroke (which is a sickness they wouldn’t be able to identify in the ANE)? Are you saying that, absent an obvious cause of death, someone was singled out and dark arts became the only explanation?

That is totally irrelevant to this case and anyway... I do not recall in any ancient writing I've read that witches were always blamed for people's death. Please give two cases in the entire OT or NT where people put witches to death. Bet you can't find it because the reality is that witches are hardly ever blamed for anything bad, most of the ancient people believed bad things sometimes happened or that God or the gods did it. Do you really think that the ancient people just went around, accused people of being witches, and killed them on the spot? BTW black arts can also mean killing a person by poision or even assination and that sure wouldn't involve any kind of 'magic' at all. Stop being stupid, ok?

Also, how did proximity factor in? Would the accused have to have been within range of the victim? Or could dark arts be used to kill someone miles away? In such a case, how would they have determined causation?

Dark arts an also being poisioning or even assination. The point is that actual meaning of the verse of the law is not limited to just what we think of as a witch and can actually refer to ther actions. Like I said, you don't know what you're talking about and just open your mouth and let stupidity flow out. Stop being stupid or would that require you to read and research before you speak?

In light of silent killers like strokes and SIDS, for which no diagnosis was possible in pre-scientific times, this raises more questions than it answers. A baby could die a natural death, and a mother with a vendetta could simply charge an enemy with “dark arts.” Two others who shared the animosity could be the “witnesses.” Causation couldn’t be proved. The accused gets stoned by a “drolling” self-righteous mob.

Again, did you read where I said that the law is very specific that you need two witnesses and that a trail is held to determine what happened or were you too busy ignoring those little facts beause your former fundy Christian mind set getting in the way again? Sorry honey, but they would not be stoned to death just because of the event your described. Stop being stupid and actually address what I said instead of your strawman re-creations of it.

That’s exactly the mentality in Africa. The setting is different, but the respect of superstitious explanations is exactly the same. So far, you’ve said nothing that makes the Mosaic trials look fair at all.

Wow, and he still fails to present the reason why or even cite the verses. We're waiting... please name the verse(s) that says Moses said to put people to death without a trial. That is not in the law at all and your failure to understand that point is telling. Also, please show these trials were unfair or is the reality that you can't and you're just ranting for the fun of it? Keep making yourself look like an idiot... it's entertaining.

I don’t think they were stupid. You keep citing a lack of intelligence, but I haven’t once cited low IQs as explaining witchsmellery. It’s way more interesting than that!

Honey, you are clearlying stating just that and anybody with a brain would know that the world 'stupid' has several connotinations that can mean more then intelligence. You sure are showing another classic sign of a troll... over litteralness... I do wonder if you are really this dumb or just trolling. What one is it?

Again, you keep saying intelligence is a factor. Why?

I see he is either playing stupid or really is this stupid. Honey, are you implying that the witch hunt you mentioned was common place in the ancient world? Yes you are and you are basically implying that they were too stupid to understand that people died of natural causes. Do you really think that this case was common in the ancient world?

Regarding science in the ANE, I don’t think one’s facility at constructing temples translates to an accurate perception of reality. We’re talking about distorted perceptions of reality. Attributing a SIDS death to a ‘dark artist’ suggests a distorted perception of reality. Fear explains that distortion, not low IQ.

Last I checked, building a bulding that is a complex as the temple was is the sign of a society that had advanced scientific and mathmatical knowledge. Now that we got past that first stupid line or reasoning, let me get to the other three..

1. Dark arts does not equal witchcraft. Poisioning is one classic example of a dark art that has nothing to do with witchcraft. In reality, that is far from supernatural, but just shows how you like to add in meanings to words.
2. I don't recall reading how the ancients were always going out in witch hunts. Can you show they were or is the reality that you're taking one case and using it to build up your argument?
3. The term 'stupid' has more then the meaning of 'low IQ'.

Is this going to take you some time to process or do you understand it just by reading it?

I’m simply asking you for their methodology in determining causation, which you’ve yet to explain. If the dark arts could be proved, as you claim, I’m very interested in the science of it.

Like I said above, it's called evidence and witnesses. Second, dark acts can be more then simply witchcraft and yes honey... poisioning does have a rather scientific bases behind it. I do love nailing people to the wall and exposing before all that they don't know what they are talking about.

I counted eight stupids here. Can you explain how the ancient Hebrews’ determined causation now?

Can you understand the term 'witnesses', 'trial' and 'dark arts' now or is your little brain going to need a few weeks to process it?

Try again and this time, learn what you are talking about before you speak.

[FormerFundy]

the verse in the law that is translated to "you shall not allow a witch to live" is more accuratly translated to a person who kills using the dark arts shall not be allowed to live.

I am not sure where you came up with this. The Hebrew word there means one who practices sorcery; it does NOT mean one who killed through the use of sorcery.

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/W/...3B+WITCHCRAFT/

[Pai Geacademe]

I am not sure where you came up with this. The Hebrew word there means one who practices sorcery; it does NOT mean one who killed through the use of sorcery.

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/W/...3B+WITCHCRAFT/

You SUCK, FF! I was rather enjoying the "murder via dark arts" interpretation.

Pix, can we still pretend witches were stoned only when they killed people with dark arts?

[lilpixieofterror]

I am not sure where you came up with this. The Hebrew word there means one who practices sorcery; it does NOT mean one who killed through the use of sorcery.

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/W/...3B+WITCHCRAFT/

Funny, It's been my understanding that:

1. Things such as poisioning would of been seen as 'sorcery'.
2. Nobody is 100% sure what the term's exact meaning was to begin with.
3. It was the understanding that anybody who called upon sorcery was using supernatural power that came not from God, but from something else.

[lilpixieofterror]

You SUCK, FF! I was rather enjoying the "murder via dark arts" interpretation.

Pix, can we still pretend witches were stoned only when they killed people with dark arts?

And the droll just keeps running down his chin. Please show that I said that this verse was only about people who killed using it.

[lilpixieofterror]

Indeed, I suspect this is exactly what Pai would expect to happen; my impression was that the thread was started with the notion of real witches killing people via the "dark arts" dismissed out of hand. I have to confess, I assumed the same thing until I saw your replies. On the other hand, perhaps you're just toying with Pai at this point; I can never quite tell when people are being serious while describing things so foreign to my worldview.

Pretty much and I played with it a bit, for my own entertainment. He'll whine and rant for a bit, but he seems to totally ignore that ancient people did not go out of their way to hunt witches down and he's really just using an isolated event and pretending it was common in that era, when it wasn't.

[PolarBeer]

Pretty much and I played with it a bit, for my own entertainment. He'll whine and rant for a bit, but he seems to totally ignore that ancient people did not go out of their way to hunt witches down and he's really just using an isolated event and pretending it was common in that error, when it wasn't.

Yeah, I realised that once I saw your more recent replies - I really should have just waited for the thread to play out... Carry on!

[Pai Geacademe]

And the droll just keeps running down his chin. Please show that I said that this verse was only about people who killed using it.

if you actually did your research instead of just opening your mouth and letting stupidity flow forth you'd discover that the verse in the law that is translated to "you shall not allow a witch to live" is more accuratly translated to a person who kills using the dark arts shall not be allowed to live.

I'm new here. Can someone tell me if Pix is just playing a part? I love her and want her to be the real deal.

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm new here. Can someone tell me if Pix is just playing a part? I love her and want her to be the real deal.

Still don't understand do you? We do not know what the ancient hebrews were saying because of what can be seen as 'dark arts' or 'magic' because well... it's one sentence. You're basically trying to pull an entire argument out of one sentence, void of context, and pretend you have an argument. The reality is... we don't know for sure if they mean all people who pratice sorcery or simply those who used it to kill people. However; I do admit I should of phrased it better, but I was trying to catch you in a bit of a trap that it seems that FF helped you slip out of. Such a shame because you were about to be nailed to the floor.

[FormerFundy]

Funny, It's been my understanding that:

1. Things such as poisioning would of been seen as 'sorcery'.

Simple posioning would NOT be seen as sorcery, it would be seen as murder by the use of posions.

2. Nobody is 100% sure what the term's exact meaning was to begin with.

Sure they are. Read the link I gave and also consult the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament.

If you are right and no one knows what the term means, then why did you offer a definition?

3. It was the understanding that anybody who called upon sorcery was using supernatural power that came not from God, but from something else.

Now you got it. A sorcerer was one who used (supposed) supernatural powers that were not derived from the biblical God.

[FormerFundy]

I'm new here. Can someone tell me if Pix is just playing a part? I love her and want her to be the real deal.

She is a disciple of the JP Holding school of apologetics. She thinks that by calling people stupid and insulting them that somehow that makes her look good. Never quite understood why. Maybe its just youth.

[Manwë Súlimo]

She is a disciple of the JP Holding school of apologetics. She thinks that by calling people stupid and insulting them that somehow that makes her look good. Never quite understood why. Maybe its just youth.

It's called calling a spade a spade.

[FormerFundy]

It's called calling a spade a spade.

No its called being childish and rude.

[Pai Geacademe]

She is a disciple of the JP Holding school of apologetics. She thinks that by calling people stupid and insulting them that somehow that makes her look good. Never quite understood why. Maybe its just youth.

I still don't believe it until I hear it. I can't imagine that style of discourse translating to a real-time conversation. How would such a discussion be possible without Pix sounding like a guest on Jerry Springer? That's why I invited her to a phone debate. I think she'd not only behave herself but actually be quite fetching. These human encounters are what make life meaningful.

I have more faith in you, Pix, than you have in herself. Let's have a dignified conversation, sister.