Are Jehovah's Witnesses Deceptive and Unreasonable, or Honest and Fair?

[jahrule84]

Before becoming a JW, when studying the Bible with JWs, do they teach not just the good, but also the errors of the organization (it's history) so that people can make a balanced, informed decision? Or do they leave out all the embarrasing parts?

Must a person accept minor details such as the date 1914 in order to be baptized?

Are Jehovah's Witnesses allowed to investigate their own organization? Or to question the Governing Body?

Does the Watchtower tell lies to cover up the sins of the organization?

I would appreciate any JWs who can answer these questions for me.

[evantisin]

Hi jahrule84,

You've got several questions about the organization that you'll probably need answered in full.

Questioning the teachings is encouraged and necessary to becoming a Jehovah's Witness, as practically all of Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs come from the Bible. One usually takes some time for this before becoming baptized.

It was actually Charles Russell's questioning of religion and God that led him to examine various religions and end up critically examining its theology:
http://www.indopedia.org/Charles_Taze_Russell.html

By the time he was 18, Russell had left both Presbyterianism and Congregationalism because he could not reconcile the idea of an eternal hell with God's mercy: "A God that would use his power to create human beings whom he foreknew and predestinated should be eternally tormented, could be neither wise, just nor loving. His standard would be lower than that of many men."

Russell was no atheist but could not accept the teachings of the churches. "Gradually I was led to see that though each of the creeds contained some elements of truth, they were, on the whole, misleading and contradictory of God’s Word." Turning away from church creeds and searching for truth, Russell examined some leading Oriental religions, only to find these unsatisfying to him. His faith in the Bible was rekindled by Adventist Preacher Jonas Wendell. Adventists introduced him to the idea that the Bible could be used to predict God's plan of salvation and Christ's return

...

Thus, in 1870, Russell and some of his aquaintances began a systematic study of the bible. An associate later described their study this way: "Someone would raise a question. They would discuss it. They would look up all related scriptures on the point and then, when they were satisfied on the harmony of these texts, they would finally state their conclusion and make a record of it."

"Sola scriptura" and comparison of religions is practically the basis of the Jehovah's Witnesses' formation. They're no stranger to skepticism of "fundamental" beliefs, but they don't embrace skepticism either.

As an organization, they're united in their beliefs and very monolithic; they don't have divisions of churches over teaching one thing or another (John 17:22-23; Ephesians 4:4-5)

If you're talking about having doubts about the organization's own teachings, that's just a sign of dissent. As in, not agreeing with the religion's core teachings (e.g. "Jesus is not God" or "the soul is not immortal") and raising up debate within the religion itself as a Jehovah's Witness is just rebellious as a member and better off done as someone outside the religion, as it's an obvious sign that the individual does not agree with the beliefs and it's a curious thing to be part of a religion that one doesn't agree with.

If you're referring to dissent about fellow Jehovah's Witnesses, it's best to look to an elder in the congregation for advice. If the problem is with the elder, you just go on up the hierarchy and refer to their superior. Keep going on up and if the Governing Body replies back with a scriptural teaching that isn't agreeable to you, you'll probably either want to tolerate it if you can or just not be a part of the organization anymore (Matthew 18:15-17)

In terms of getting critical problems with people inside of the religion settled, Jehovah's Witnesses tend to side on avoiding false positives. As in, they'll choose to be more forgiving than go out ahead and start a witch hunt or Inquisition. Avoiding false positives is where the whole issue of Jehovah's Witnesses "protecting" child molestors come from. The fact is, Jehovah's Witnesses teach against such things and emphasize the importance of making sure children are taught how to defend against that and how pedophiles should be dealt with (A)(B)(C). Furthermore, they actively kick out between 30,000 to 60,000 members each year on the basis of immorality and contradicting scriptural teachings, 1/3 of which usually are allowed to come back after a formal letter of apology.

When issues require that one take a Jehovah's Witness to court, they'll choose to reconcile it outside of court, often by payment, as Jesus taught (Matthew 5:25-26). The organization is not perfect and it can be said that taking on such flaws is the "cost" of living up to God's Word not to persecute a fellow Christian.

On the other hand, a wide variety of issues are dealt with by disfellowshiping, which was taught by Jesus (Matthew 18:15-17) and frequently by Apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 5:1-13; Galatians 5:7-10; 1 Timothy 1:18-20) on general and specific issues
-and Jehovah's Witnesses take it seriously (2 John 1:9-11)

As the details in scripture imply, it involves not considering a Jehovah's Witness to be a member and although they are welcomed to come to the Kingdom Hall, the wrongs they've committed are not embraced or taken as acceptable.

Not being active as a Jehovah's Witness just means being understood as "inactive" and is not a basis of disfellowshiping unless the individual is perceived to have left the religion entirely (2 Thessalonians 3:6-15)

Jehovah's Witnesses are also a close community, though, so you would be treated almost like a family member and involve close relations. When one leaves the organization, they periodically visit to see if you're still interested and if there's any issues they can resolve, but they'll cease doing so soon enough and if you're just not interested anymore and let them know, they'll promptly keep from visiting.

Concerning their interpretation of the Bible's prophecies and setting up timetables, you're not required to accept any of them. However, 1914 and the fact that we're living in the end times are pretty much assumed. Before, that meant that they'd live every day as if it were the last. Today, in general, that means you take your life very seriously and aren't apathetic. All Jehovah's Witnesses' literature are teachings against all kinds of apathy, and for the belief in God. Check any one and you'll see what I mean.

With respect to Jehovah's Witnesses facing their own prophecies, they often addressed it and admitted their shortcomings. They've published such apologies and discussions a number of times and have since moved on. Although Bible prophecy has been emphasized, that's not the focus of the religion, so don't be surprised if they don't bother talking about it in formal discussion. They're not going to publish a formal apology every month in the Watchtower, but their literature, including the more recent ones, have dealt with addressing the shortcomings in interpretation of Biblical prophecies numerous times.

For your own reference, here are a few of them that I can fit in as excerpts:

Watchtower 1980 3/15 Choosing the Best Way of Life

5 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

Reasoning From the Scriptures False Prophets

Have not Jehovah's Witnesses made errors in their teachings?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.-Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.

The Scriptures provide time elements related to Christ's presence, and Jehovah's Witnesses have studied these with keen interest. (Luke 21:24; Dan. 4:10-17) Jesus also described a many-featured sign that would tie in with the fulfillment of time prophecies to identify the generation that would live to see the end of Satan's wicked system of things. (Luke 21:7-36) Jehovah's Witnesses have pointed to evidence in fulfillment of this sign. It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah's purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."-Matt. 24:42.

Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following: Jehovah is the only true God. Jesus Christ is not part of a Trinitarian godhead but is the only-begotten Son of God. Redemption from sin is possible only through faith in Christ's ransom sacrifice. The holy spirit is not a person but is Jehovah's active force, and its fruitage must be evident in the lives of true worshipers. The human soul is not immortal, as the ancient pagans claimed; it dies, and the hope for future life is in the resurrection. God's permission of wickedness has been because of the issue of universal sovereignty. God's Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things. Only 144,000 faithful Christians will be kings and priests with Christ in heaven, whereas the rest of obedient mankind will receive eternal life on a paradise

Watchtower 1979 3/1 To Whom Shall We Go but Jesus Christ?

15 Because of this hope, the "faithful and discreet slave" has alerted all of God's people to the sign of the times indicating the nearness of God's Kingdom rule. In this regard, however, it must be observed that this "faithful and discreet slave" was never inspired, never perfect. Those writings by certain members of the "slave" class that came to form the Christian part of God's Word were inspired and infallible, but that is not true of other writings since. Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in the days of J. F. Rutherford, the succeeding president. The increasing light on God's Word as well as the facts of history have repeatedly required that adjustments of one kind or another be made down to the very present time. But let us never forget that the motives of this "slave" were always pure, unselfish; at all times it has been well-meaning. Moreover, the words found at Romans 8:28 are fitting here also: "God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose." Actually, any adjustments that have been made in understanding have furnished an opportunity for those being served by this "slave" to show loyalty and love, the kind of love that Jesus said would mark his followers. (John 13:34, 35; compare 1 Peter 4:8.) For those who truly love God's law there is no stumbling block.-Ps. 119:165.

Watchtower 1950 8/15 Name and Purpose of The Watchtower

But what has all this to do with the Watchtower magazine? Very much, for The Watchtower is the official voice of the watchman class today. Just as literal towers were located on vantage points affording broad views, so The Watchtower is founded on the very pinnacle of reliable wisdom, namely, God's Word the Bible. That elevates it above party squabbles, prejudices, greeds, propagandas, biases of race or nation, and frees from influences that might sway or warp viewpoint. Its vision is not narrow or shortsighted, but takes an over-all view and is farsighted enough to peer into the future, by use of recorded inspired prophecy. It views modern conditions and events in the light of God's Word, being receptive to Jehovah's message, and quick to declare his truths and judgments. Jehovah commands the watchman class to "call aloud, hold not back, lift up your voice like a trumpet; show my people their transgression". (Isa. 58:1, An Amer. Trans.) As a voice for the watchman class, The Watchtower has trumpeted forth the sins of those professing to serve God, and at present lifts up its voice in thirty languages and is heard throughout the nations of earth.

Viewed in this light it may be said that The Watchtower stands as a watchman on a lookout post, alert to what is going on, awake to note signs that warn of danger, quick to point the way to life in a new world. It heralds the news of Jehovah's kingdom established by Christ's enthronement in heaven, warns that we live in the last days of this old world, cries out that Jehovah's battle of Armageddon comes on apace, feeds the kingdom joint-heirs with spiritual food, cheers men of good will with glorious prospects of eternal life in a paradise earth, and comforts us with the resurrection promise for the dead. All this it does with confident ring in its voice, because its words find their foundation in God's Word. It is not a blind or dumb watchman, but tries to keep in tune with God by searching his Word and being receptive to his guidance, with eyes always open to prophecy so that it knows what to look for in world events, so that it understands the significance of what it sees. It does not privately interpret prophecy, but calls attention to physical facts, sets them alongside prophecy, and you see for yourself how well the two match, how accurately Jehovah interprets his own prophecy.-2 Pet. 1:20, 21.

Hence the purpose of this magazine is to keep sharp and faithful focus on Bible truth, on world happenings that may fulfill prophecies, and on religious news generally. Sometimes it will tear down religious falsehoods, that Bible truth may be built up in their stead. Such two-way work is Scripturally commanded, and is beneficial for all persons of right heart condition. (Jer. 1:10; Heb. 12:5-13) However, The Watchtower does not claim to be inspired ill its utterances, nor is it dogmatic. It invites careful and critical examination of its contents in the light of the Scriptures. Its purpose is to aid others to know Jehovah and his purposes toward mankind, and to announce Christ's established kingdom as our only hope.

Jehovah God is the Teacher of his people, but we must "be on the watch" to catch his instruction. We must "not sleep like the rest of men, but be wakeful and sober". To those who do slumber the wakeful ones must cry, "It is high time to awake!" (Isa. 54:13; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 16:13, An Amer. Trans.; 1 Thess. 5:6, Moffatt) If you have been asleep to the signs of the times, not watching world developments in the light of Bible prophecies, then you must obey the command to wake up and watch. Let The Watchtower help you heed such admonition that leads to life, for that is its purpose.

Watchtower 1954 10/15

Questions from Readers

• How does Jehovah's spirit help the "faithful and discreet slave" arrive at the truth of a matter?

The Society does not claim infallibility or inspiration. How much is dependent upon the written Word? How can we be sure that this is the organization Jehovah is using when some things are published and later changed?-C. P., United States.

In regard to how the truth is brought forth through Jehovah's organization, please note that if the Watch Tower Society were infallible there would be no need for future correction of viewpoints held; but because it is not infallible and has never claimed to be, from time to time corrections are necessary. If Jehovah's spirit operated in the way it did upon Bible writers, inspiring them to write according to Jehovah's thoughts, then no future corrections in matters would ever be necessary. But because the spirit does not operate in this way today some corrections are made from time to time.

Jehovah God, in fact, foretold or indicated that such would be the case. At Proverbs 4:18 (AS) it states: "The path of the righteous is as the dawning light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." While the light is still dim the broad outline of an object may be visible but the details of it are not always distinct, and as the light increases these details may be seen with more clarity and a corrected view is obtained. Full dependence is placed upon Jehovah's Word in the formulation of truth and it is from his Word that proof should be forthcoming. However, with greater clarity and understanding, new truths are discerned and something that previously appeared very logical may require revision.

...

Even the erroneous viewpoints held by Jehovah's witnesses during the first world war served their purpose in contributing to the fulfillment of prophecy, for Jehovah had long ago foretold a condition of spiritual uncleanness upon his people at that particular time and the cleansing work that would be done. Hence such things are to be expected according to prophecy and their occurrence is a confirmation that this is Jehovah's organization, rather than a cause for raising question concerning Jehovah's use of the organization.

Jehovah uses this organization because it is meek and teachable and is not set and bound in its viewpoints. It is an organization that looks to Jehovah for guidance and direction and watches his maneuvering of matters on the world scene and the outworking of events that fulfill prophecy and it lines up its views in accord with these things. It is willing to change and keep up with the developing conditions, to keep up with the light as the light is revealed brighter and brighter. That is why Jehovah can use this organization, and certainly the facts show that he has been using it and is continuing to use it. He is bringing the increase. He is using this organization to preach the good news of the established Kingdom in all the inhabited earth. Prophecies are being fulfilled upon this group. We are counseled to remain close to the organization, for even if the organization does have views that are later changed, our safety lies in remaining within the organization and changing with it when the light increases and new truths are discerned.

1980 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses

Many were the appreciative comments heard on the symposium dealing with "Soundness of Mind in a Mixed-up World." These talks underscored the value of cultivating a realistic view of life; of forming trusted relations with Jehovah God and our brothers; of strengthening our Bible-based hope and the will to live, as well as of allowing for variety and recreation in one's life. A fine point made in the talk "Choosing the Best Way of Life" was that Jehovah God will save us from stumbling-even as he did David in the case of Nabal's insolence-but we must do our part. The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975.

Watchtower 1966 10/15 Rejoicing over "God's Sons of Liberty" Spiritual Feast

At the Baltimore assembly Brother Franz in his closing remarks made some interesting comments regarding the year 1975. He began casually by saying, "Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, 'Say, what does this 1975 mean? Does it mean this, that or any other thing?'" In part, Brother Franz went on to say: 'You have noticed the chart . It shows that 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God's rest day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it. If that is the case, what does that mean to us?

'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah's witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.

Watchtower 1984 12/1 Happy Are Those Found Watching!

'Happy Are Those Found Watching'

16 Since "the more established Christian churches" were no longer on the watch for Christ's presence and his receiving Kingdom power, it was left to what those churches called "heretical groups" to do so. In the 19th century, several such groups appeared in lands where the Bible and the means to study it were available to the common people. The mainstream churches, for whom any teaching on the "Last Things" had become meaningless, despisingly called such groups adventists or millennialists, because such groups were on the watch for Christ's second advent and believed that Christ was due to reign for a thousand years. Many of these groups expected Christ to return to earth to establish his millennial Kingdom. Some of them calculated Christ's second advent as due to occur in 1835 (the Irvingites, in England), 1836 (Bengel's followers, in Germany), 1843 (Miller's followers, in the United States) and 1889 (a Mennonite group in Russia).

17 Naturally, "the more established Christian churches" rejoiced when these predictions turned out to be erroneous. To be sure, the Catholic, Orthodox and principal Protestant Churches made no such mistakes. For them, the teaching on the "Last Things" was "meaningless." They had long since ceased to "keep on the watch."-Mark 13:37.

18 Yet, Jesus told his disciples: "Happy are those slaves whom the master on arriving finds watching! . . . Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so!"-Luke 12:37-43.

19 Among the so-called heretical groups who were watching for the sign of Christ's return in the latter third of the 19th century was a Bible-study class presided over by Charles Russell in Pittsburgh, United States. Russell wrote: "From 1870 to 1875 was a time of constant growth in grace and knowledge and love of God and his Word. . . . However, we were then merely getting the general outline of God's plan, and unlearning many long-cherished errors. . . . We felt greatly grieved at the error of Second Adventists, who were expecting Christ in the flesh."

Regards,
evantisin

[JAYMZ]

I'm not a JW but I have had LOTS of "bible studies" with a couple of different groups. ( I think they are told to avoid my house now )
There were a few things a found interesting with my experiences with them.
They wanted me to take and read all kinds of stuff from them but wouldnt take any of my books to look at til our next meeting.( Thats a red flag for brainwashing.)
When dealing with theology issues ( trinity, etc ) any verse I would bring up they wouldnt really deal with it and want to go to another.
They only use the new world translation which is seriously flawed.
All the false prophecies were ether not dealt with or they said " this is what that really meant."

I guess hindsight is always 20/20.

[JAYMZ]

In some ways atheists and I what led Charles Russell to his teachings are similar.

Some atheists wont believe in God because " he sends People to hell for all eternity ". That doesnt speak to weather he is real or not, just that you disagree how he operates.

Charles Russell didnt like the teaching of hell so instead of becoming an atheist, he just changed what HE disagreed with.
Just look at all the christian cults out there and they usually start out in similar ways.

[evantisin]

Hi JAYMZ,

In some ways atheists and I what led Charles Russell to his teachings are similar.

Some atheists wont believe in God because " he sends People to hell for all eternity ". That doesnt speak to weather he is real or not, just that you disagree how he operates.

Charles Russell didnt like the teaching of hell so instead of becoming an atheist, he just changed what HE disagreed with.
Just look at all the christian cults out there and they usually start out in similar ways.

Jehovah's Witnesses do indeed believe in hell.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_02.htm

Since the dead have no conscious existence, hell cannot be a fiery place of torment where the wicked suffer after death. What, then, is hell? Examining what happened to Jesus after he died helps to answer that question. The Bible writer Luke recounts: "Neither was [Jesus] forsaken in Hades [hell, King James Version] nor did his flesh see corruption."* (Acts 2:31) Where was the hell to which even Jesus went? The apostle Paul wrote: "I handed on to you . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried, yes, that he has been raised up the third day according to the Scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4) So Jesus was in hell, the grave, but he was not abandoned there, for he was raised up, or resurrected.

What they don't believe in is the teaching of eternal torture and suffering in it.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020601/article_02.htm

Many religions teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever. Is this teaching logical and Scriptural? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short lifetime.

One case of that I've come across recently is 2 Samuel 24:10-17, where God gave King David a choice from 3 kinds of punishments for sinning against him and David chose that God punish him because God is merciful. ("I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into the hands of men.").

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20020715/article_01.htm

Still, by revealing the true condition of the dead, the Bible helps us to dispel any morbid fear of death. There is no need to fear an afterlife of torture by demons in a burning hell. No need to fear a dark ghostly realm where souls wander restlessly forever. And you need not fear that all the future has to offer is an eternal state of nonexistence. Why? Because God has a limitless memory, and he promises to bring all the dead who are in his memory back to life here on earth.

Hellfire teachings usually deviate from what's taught in the Bible. It frequently is mixed with mythology and myth.

Also, most Jews do not believe in hellfire, so its origin the nature of hell is obviously questionable.

Most Jews don't believe hellfire exists because the Old Testament doesn't teach about such a thing. In the New Testament, Jesus frequently talks about hellfire in parable.

Consider the Pew Report's 2008 survey and see where Judaism stands on the belief:
http://religions.pewforum.org/
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/d...ort/42hell.jpg

For the most part, Judaism doesn't believe in hellfire, and they use the Old Testament.

How come?

If hellfire wasn't taught in the Old Testament and most Jews in Jesus' time didn't believe in it, what was Jesus teaching?

The main difference on life after death between the Old Testament religion of Judaism and the coming of the Messiah is the Resurrection of the dead (John 11:25-26).

Again, most cases where Jesus teaches about hellfire, it is parable and frequently uses figure of speech.

He is talking about the nature of hell, not hellfire. It is eternal destruction, not eternal suffering.

The "burning" is the decomposing, digesting/use of a dead body's nutrients by living animals, and everlasting destruction of dead corpses as they decompose.

Where do the scriptures teach that hell is a place of eternal suffering and torture of people by Satan and his demons? I can understand why Catholics believe that (apostolic tradition and no "sola scriptura"), but why Protestants? How could Protestants believe that hell is a place where demons torture humans for eternity? Where in the scriptures is that taught?

I'm not a JW but I have had LOTS of "bible studies" with a couple of different groups. ( I think they are told to avoid my house now )
There were a few things a found interesting with my experiences with them.
They wanted me to take and read all kinds of stuff from them but wouldnt take any of my books to look at til our next meeting.( Thats a red flag for brainwashing.)
When dealing with theology issues ( trinity, etc ) any verse I would bring up they wouldnt really deal with it and want to go to another.
They only use the new world translation which is seriously flawed.
All the false prophecies were ether not dealt with or they said " this is what that really meant."

I guess hindsight is always 20/20.

Jehovah's Witnesses are practically always confident in their beliefs because they've studied a great deal into the theology of the scriptures.

Most wouldn't be persuaded by arguments against the religion's teachings concerning theology because they've already done enough research and know the misunderstandings of scripture.

It's not so much stubbornness or "brainwashing" as it is confidence. They don't like being skeptical of their own beliefs; there's already been enough of that.

Also, translation itself is not a big priority. They've referred to Protestant translations like the New International Version as well as used translations like the KJV and American Standard Version for years before they started publishing their own with the Bible Students' research from earlier decades.

Jehovah's Witnesses heavily emphasize and concern themselves with theology of the scriptures and the big idea discussed. Not so much how several verses are translated. They inherited the studies of the Bible Student movement over some of the earliest Greek manuscripts available at the time (the JWs broke off from the Bible Students). There isn't as much of a concern over how particular verses are translated as what the context of the scriptures at large are saying.

Some verses (like John 8:58 and John 1:1, among a few others) are translated a bit differently. The intent is to reflect the meaning of potentially confusing, contradicting, or vague pieces of scripture correctly, so it's somewhat comparable to The Amplified Bible, The New Living Translation, or The Message in some cases.

Nevertheless, translating a verse to reflect a meaning that differs from what is literally presented is not new and has been done numerous times before in the history of Protestantism as well as Catholicism preceding it.

1 Timothy 3:16, Comma Johanneum, Revelation 1:11, Mark 9:29,
etc.
etc.
etc.

Take your pick.

Protestants and Catholics have done that sort of thing for centuries.

There are passages throughout the scriptures that can be used to show evidence of one kind of doctrine or a completely contradicting one; like of Jesus being God and of Jesus not being God, or it could mean both. Changing a term that may mean one or the other to reflect an idea that's consistent with the rest of the passage just clears the matter up.

Is the New World Translation the most literal? Probably not, but I'd say it reflects the meaning best.

(Personally, I'd say that the New Jerusalem Bible is the most literal and consistent, though, second to the American Standard Version).

Besides, the Jehovah's Witnesses have long used the King James Version, later turning to the American Standard Version, and only until the 1960s started to publish their own Bible.

You can examine what's taught in their articles to what's taught in your scriptures and see how it compares in discussing doctrine.

Overall, I'd say it's best just to look at the big idea and larger context of what's being said, wouldn't you.

Sincerely,
evantisin

[JAYMZ]

Hey Evintisin,

I hear what your saying, but.....I/m very confident in my beliefs but I had no problem reading the material that JW have given me in the past. I read their stuff for our next meeting and I wasnt convinced by it. But I still read it. I wasnt afraid of being confused BECAUSE I was confident in my Nicean beliefs.
I was briefly in involved with a group that is very similar in theology to the JWs, The way international. It left me very confused.
Then a did A LOT of studying about the trinity, Jesus deity, etc.
I read apologetic material and mostly let The Holy Spirit speak to me through the bible.
The historical creeds of the church is what I believe.

[evantisin]

Hi JAYMZ,

Hey Evintisin,

I hear what your saying, but.....I/m very confident in my beliefs but I had no problem reading the material that JW have given me in the past. I read their stuff for our next meeting and I wasnt convinced by it. But I still read it. I wasnt afraid of being confused BECAUSE I was confident in my Nicean beliefs.
I was briefly in involved with a group that is very similar in theology to the JWs, The way international. It left me very confused.
Then a did A LOT of studying about the trinity, Jesus deity, etc.
I read apologetic material and mostly let The Holy Spirit speak to me through the bible.
The historical creeds of the church is what I believe.

It's wonderful that you're getting a good understanding of the scriptures yourself.

I used to defend beliefs of theology I didn't understand so well before. Actually going into studying the scriptures themselves revealed a lot I wasn't aware of and assumptions that I got wrong. It would be good to get into a discussion and debate on some doctrines some time.

Part of the reason why it may be difficult for Jehovah's Witnesses to get into philosophy and creeds rather than just theology is over how simplified they make the scriptures seem and the stance they take over it. I'd say that the Jehovah's Witness religion functions more as an endeavor than as a religion of spirituality or tradition.

Being part of the organization is a serious thing and is all about dedication to God. That's why they take their beliefs and lives seriously the way they do. Emphasis on understanding the entirety of the scriptures and its context in life, political neutrality, a desire for detachment with the world (no "tradition"), humble endeavors (they teach against desires of getting rich and being ambitious), and general God-centered lifestyle are all part of what defines the organization.

God and his role in one's life are emphasized as practical, simple teachings that can be applied to most anything. No desire to worry about fears and idols that may conflict with God's role, like predestination, evolution, hellfire, or purgatory. It's not that they don't think any of it exists or couldn't possibly exist, but that they don't see the formal teachings of those kinds of beliefs as productive or scripturally sound. For example, fear of hell itself conflicts with the respect due to God and the fact that only the righteous get to live forever (Matthew 19:16-19), and that sinning souls die, so the belief breaks the logic of scripture (Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28). There is definitely the possibility that hell is eternal torture and suffering, that evolution is the most objective and accurate way to explain how man came to exist, that the Trinity exists, or that there's even a purgatory of some sort, but these conflict and tend to contradict with some of the most basic of scriptural teachings. "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33).

One doesn't have to know Greek philosophy, history, mythology, or, indeed, Hebrew or Greek well enough just to understand what's taught in the scriptures, so everything's simplified to the basics and they get skeptical of being enticed to believe in religious teachings that have no strong scriptural basis.

I'd say it's more of a religion for the mature and certainly not for everyone, probably not for most children to grow into. Getting people to convert is not the point, but letting people know about the religion's theological basis is what's seen as most important . It was commanded, so it's done (Matthew 28:19).

Personally, I'd emphasize to Witnesses interfaith discussion and habitual use of various Bible translations as well as discussion of other religious beliefs, but, you know, they do go door to door and come across all sorts of people anyway.

Anytime you'd like to debate a critical doctrine or belief, go ahead and start up a thread. It would be good to enter into one with you some time and see how well we've studied.

Regards,
evantisin

[jahrule84]

Jehovah’s Witnesses are unreasonable because they tell lies on others in order to support their teachings; i.e.

The Trinity brochure claims that the early church fathers did not teach the trinity. On p.7 it says “Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E….said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father,”” but not equal to him.

Actually, he did teach that the Son is equal to the Father.
He said:
“For when he says, “That which was from the beginning,” he touches upon the generation without beginning of Son, who is co-existent with the Father. There was, then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by EQUALITY OF SUBSTANCE, one with the Father, is eternal and UNCREATE. That he was always the Word, is signified by saying, “In the beginning was the Word.”…”And we show unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto you.” He signifies by the appellation of the Father, that the Son also existed always, WITHOUT BEGINNING.” Fragments From Cassidorus, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol.2, p.574.

Obviously he believed in the trinity. The Son he says was both UNCREATED and EQUAL with God to the very substance.

The faithful slave of the Watchtower ignored passages like this, and presented their own lying opinion of what Clement believed to lend support to their teaching.

Personally, I don’t believe in the trinity, but I don’t tell lies to prove my point!

Clement goes on to say:
“the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Diety, He that is made EQUAL to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son.” Exhortation to the Heathen, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol.2, p.202

Trinity brochure, p.7 “the Trinity derives no support from the language of Justin Martyr: and this observation may be extended to ALL the ante-Nicene Fathers; that is, to ALL Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ.”

Why do they need to lie like this?
Tertullian says:
“All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in, (the Persons of) the Trinity.” “Still, in these few quotations the distinction of Persons in the Trinity is clearly set forth. For there is the Spirit Himself who speaks, and the Father to whom He speaks, and the Son of whom he speaks.”
“If the number of the Trinity also offends you, as if it were not connected in the simple Unity, I ask you how it is possible for a Being who is merely and absolutely One and Singular, to speak in plural plrase, saying, “Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness;”…He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, that He spoke to Himself in plural terms, making Himself plural on that very account…it was because He had already His Son close at His side, as a second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that he purposely adopted the plural phrase, “Let us make,” and “in our image.” Against Praxeas, ANF p.606.

He obviously thinks the holy spirit is a person. Clear trinity here.

Clement: “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” The Stromata/ Miscellanies, ANF p.468.

A more drastic example of how unreasonable and lying JWs are, is that they always claim that they never have, and do not claim inspiration (as an excuse for why their false prophecies do not make them false prophets. Hear them now:

“This does not signify that the faithful remnant or society of Jehovah’s anointed witnesses are an earthly tribunal of interpretation, delegated to interpret the Scriptures and its prophecies. No; Christ Jesus the King has not entrusted that office to them. THE SUPREME COURT STILL INTERPRETS, thank God; and Christ Jesus, the Court’s official mouthpiece of interpretation, reserves to himself that office as Head of Jehovah’s “faithful and wise servant” class. He merely uses the ‘servant’ class to publish the interpretation after the Supreme Court by Christ Jesus reveals it.” —The Watchtower, July 1, 1943, p. 203

So it was the Supreme Court of heaven that revealed to JWs through Jesus Christ, that “1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old....based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die.” —Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 97
So this was not JWs interpretation; they do not interpret, it was God who interpreted, right? How is this not inspiration? They blame God.

So here they claim that they do not interpret the Bible, God does, and then Jesus REVEALS the interpretation to JWs before they publish it! How is that different from being inspired?

“The small remnant of true followers of the Son of God have no interpretive powers of their own…”no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation…” (2 Peter 1:20, 21) However, the faithful remnant of Christ’s footstep followers are proclaiming God’s message from His written word. How did they get it? The remnant’s having the message is made possible because God causes the prophecies which He inspired by His Spirit to be fulfilled. Then God, by that same holy spirit or active force, opens the understanding of His spirit begotten remnant to discern the fulfilment of such prophecies. Thus God by means of His spirit interprets His word to His servants on the earth in this day.” Awake! Oct 22, 1947, p.24

Again, they blame God for the interpretation found in the WT. Holy spirit opened their understanding to the belief that “Hence it is said, :Let all the angels of God worship him”; [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God.” Watchtower, Nov 1879, p.4; bound volume p.48 Rmember, they are proclaiming “God’s message from His written word,” and his word is inspired, therefore, what it teaches is inspired! According to them, the Bible/ God, was saying that Michael is not Jesus! Now they teach different from the same Bible. T

he Reasoning Book defines false prophets as: “Individuals and organizations proclaiming messages that they attribute to a super human source but that do not originate with the true God and are not in harmony with his revealed will.” —Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, 1989, p. 132
So when JWs claim that THE BIBLE TEACHES that “1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old....based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die.” —Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 97 is not the Bible and INSPIRED SOURCE? By claiming that this is from the Bible, you are attributing it to a INSPIRED SOURCE, and it surely did not originate with God, nor was in harmony with his will! So based on your own definition of false prophets, are you not so? It is unfair to lie, to claim one thing when it suits you, then claim the opposite.

“These angels are invisible to human eyes and are there to carry out the orders of the Lord. Not doubt they first hear the instruction which the Lord issues to his remnant and then these invisible messengers pass such instruction on to the remnant. The facts show that the angels of the Lord with him at his temple have been thus rendering service unto the remnant since 1919.” —Vindication III, 1932, p. 250

How is that not a claim to inspiration? All your quotes denying that JWs claim inspiration simply proves that the organisation is lying to you, trying to cover up its past. This is unreasoble, and dishonest.

“The interpretation of prophecy, therefore, is not from man, but is from Jehovah; and Jehovah causes events to come to pass in fulfillment of the prophecy in due time.”—The Watchtower, May 1, 1938. p. 143

“This is not giving any credit to the magazine’s publishers, but is due to the great Author of the Bible with its truths and prophecies, and who now interprets its prophecies. He it is that makes possible the material that is published in the columns of this magazine....” —The Watchtower, April 15, 1943, p. 127

“The scroll was doubtless delivered to Ezekiel by the hand of one of the cherubs in the vision. This would indicate that Jehovah’s witnesses today make their declaration of the good news of the Kingdom under angelic direction and support. (Rev. 14:6,7; Matt. 25:31, 32) And since no word or work of Jehovah can fail, for he is God Almighty, the nations will see the fulfillment of what these witnesses say as directed from heaven. Yes, the time must come shortly that the nations will have to know that really a ‘prophet’ of Jehovah was among them.” —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 200

Their false prophecies were DIRECTED FROM HEAVEN, and that is a claim to inspiration, is it not? What do you think it means?

“So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This ‘prophet’ was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are know as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses....Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet’ of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?” —The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197
• 1914: “...the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.” —The Time Is At Hand, 1889, p. 101
• 1915: “...the ‘battle of the great day of God Almighty’ (Rev. 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1915, with the complete overthrow of earth’s present rulership, is already commenced.” —The Time Is At Hand, 1917 edition, p. 101
• 1918: “Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of ‘Christianity.’ ” —The Finished Mystery, 1917, p. 485
• 1925: “...1925 shall mark the resurrection of the faithful worthies of old....based upon the promises set forth in the divine Word, we must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die.” —Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, p. 97
• 1940’s: “It would therefore appear that there is no reasonable or Scriptural injunction to bring children into the world immediately before Armageddon, where we now are.” —The Watchtower, November 1, 1938, p. 324
• 1975: “Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” —Kingdom Ministry, May 1974, p. 3

“We see no reason for changing the figures — nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” —Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, p. 226

GOD'S DATES, NOT OUR. How is that not inspiration and infallibility? If now you admit they are not God's dates, then JWs were simply telling lies; these were dates of their own making without God's guidance. In any case, it makes them unreasonable false teachers.

Certainly humans make mistakes and even Jesus’ disciples had wrong expectations as to when the end would come. However, remember that at the time when the Watch Tower Society was making these prophecies about the end of the world, they were telling their followers that these “prophecies” and “dates” were “God’s dates, not ours.” They were proclaiming these prophecies in Jehovah’s name.

Let’s examine what the Society says “False Prophets” are:
“Individuals and organizations proclaiming messages that they attribute to a super human source but that do not originate with the true God and are not in harmony with his revealed will.” —Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, 1989, p. 132

According to the standard for testing prophets, discussed in Deuteronomy 18:18-22 and in the Society’s Reasoning book, which category does the Watch Tower Society fall into? Did they not attribute their false prophecies to “THE SUPREME COURT OF HEAVEN, which reveals it by Christ Jesus”? Did they not claim to have angelic direction? Did they not claim that these were Biblical (hence God inspired teachings), taught by the infallible word of God? Are they a true or a false prophet? Do you agree with the Society’s statement in the May 15, 1930 p. 156 issue of The Watchtower which states that once a person discovers a “false prophet” the “people should no longer trust them as safe guides”?

Jehovah’s Witnesses presently believe that Jesus’ presence began in 1914 and that he has been reigning “invisibly” in the heavens ever since. However, from 1879-1929, the Watch Tower Society proclaimed Christ’s “invisible presence” began in 1874. Therefore, we see that even according to the Society’s present position, they falsely proclaimed Christ’s presence for 50 years

To try to smooth over their history of false prophecies, the Society states:
“Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized. Among these are the following:…Since 1914 we have been living in the last days of the global wicked system of things.” —Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, 1989, pp. 136-137

As has already been pointed out, the Society has made quite a substantial doctrinal change when they changed their date for “Christ’s presence” from 1874 to 1914. When we examine the record, we also discover that their current claim to have always taught the so-called “Bible truth” that “Since 1914 we have been living in the last days” has also been CHANGED. Note the following statements in earlier Watchtower publications:

“The ‘Time of the End,’ a period of one hundred and fifteen (115) years, from A.D. 1799 to A.D. 1914, is particularly marked in the Scriptures.” —Thy Kingdom Come, (1891), 1914 edition, p. 23

So The Bible, THE INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD marked out these time periods, and how can that not be a claim toinspiration? How is that not reference to an inspired source? All the double talk, at best, shows that they are false teachers if not false prophets.

“ ‘The time of the end’ embraces a period from A.D. 1799, as above indicated, to the time of the complete overthrow of Satan’s empire and the establishment of the kingdom of the Messiah. The time of the Lord’s second presence dates from 1874, as above stated.” — The Harp of God, (1921), 1924 ed., p. 231

On top of all this, the Society endeavors to cover-up their history by stating in their 1993 history book, Jehovah’s Witnesses — Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, p. 135:

“As the years passed and they examined and reexamined the Scriptures, their faith in the prophecies remained strong, and they did not hold back from stating what they expected to occur. With varying degrees of success, they endeavored to avoid being dogmatic about details not directly stated in the Scriptures.”

Did they really, “avoid being dogmatic about details not directly stated in the Scriptures”?

“Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874....” —The Watch Tower, January 1, 1924, p. 5

“We see not reason for changing the figures —nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God’s dates, not ours.” —Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, p. 226

“The typical Jubilee cycles pointed out A.D. 1874 as the date of our Lord’s return....And this testimony was made doubly strong by proofs from two standpoints --the Law and the Prophets....” —Thy Kingdom Come, (1891), 1914 ed., p. 125

They lied on God, saying that God testifies in his word to these bogus man made false prophecies.

“In this volume we offer a chain of testimony on the subject of God’s appointed times and seasons, each link of which we consider Scripturally strong....therefore cannot be of human origin.” —The Time is at Hand, (1889), 1917 ed., p. 15

NOT OF HUMAN ORIGIN; how does that differ from claiming inspiration? I really don't know.

And they avoided being “dogmatic”??

So, back to my question, if a Bible Study refuses to accept lets say, that God’s kingdom was established in 1914, he can still be approved for baptism?

Are they honest and reasonable about having the true religion? Let’s see:
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND:
In 1879, at the age of 27, Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society, began publishing Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence. Born in Allegheny, Pennsylvania in 1852, he was raised a Presbyterian but later joined a liberal Congregational Church because he preferred its views. For 10 years, prior to publishing his Watch Tower articles, Russell studied with a splinter group off of Second Adventists and was greatly influenced by their teachings against the bodily return of Christ and the immortality of the human soul.4. Russell taught and published many doctrines that the current Watch Tower Society totally rejects and engaged in practices regarded by current Jehovah’s Witnesses to be of pagan origin. In fact, if Russell were a Jehovah’s Witness in the current Watchtower organization, he would have been disfellowshipped for his beliefs and practices! Among these are the following:
• Using the symbol of the sun god Ra on the cover of his books.5.
• Using the Masonic Knights Templar logo of the Cross and Crown on his issues of Zion’s Watch Tower.6.
• Teaching that he was the “Faithful and Wise Servant” of Matt. 24:45-51, which resulted in many of his followers actually worshipping him.7.
• Teaching that “the forming of a visible organization...would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan.” “Beware of ‘organization.’ It is wholly unnecessary.”8.
• Teaching that Christians “are divine beings -- hence all such are Gods, thus we have a family of God....in the resurrection we will rise in our true character as Gods.”9.
• Teaching that “the whole body of Christ the ‘Mighty God’...shall share in the work of restoring the life lost in Adam, and therefore be members of that company which as a whole will be the Everlasting Father to the restored race.”10.
• Teaching that the Lord Jesus should be worshipped and that he is not Michael the archangel.11.
• Celebrating birthdays and holidays such as Christmas.12.
• Teaching that one can join the military as long as he did “not shoot anybody.”13.
• Teaching that white skin is better than black skin and that “the white race exhibits some qualities of superiority over any other.”14.
• Teaching that the shape of one’s brain determines his responsiveness to God.15.
• Teaching that Jehovah “governs his universe” from the star “Alcyone” in the Pleiades constellation.16.
• Teaching that the “Great Pyramid of Gizeh” was “God’s stone witness” which proved Russell’s claims that “the time of the end” embraced a period from 1799-1914, with Jesus’ invisible presence beginning in 1874, and the destruction of present government in 1914.17.

4. Jehovah’s Witnesses --Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, 1993, pp. 45-46
5. Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 1-7
6. Jehovah’s Witnesses --Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, 1993, p. 200
7. The Watch Tower, April 15, 1904, p. 125; The Divine Plan of the Ages, Studies, vol. 1, 1925ed. Biography, p. 7; 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses, p. 88
8. Zion’s Watch Tower, December 1, 1894, p. 384; Zion’s Watch Tower, September 15, 1895, p. 216
9. Zion’s Watch Tower, December 1881, pp. 2-3 (Reprints p. 301)
10. Zion’s Watch Tower, November 1881, p. 10 (Reprints p. 298)
11. The Atonement Between God and Man, (Studies, vol. 5), 1899, 1916ed, p. 85; Watch Tower, November 1879, p. 4 (Reprints p. 48); The Plan of the Ages, 1891, p. 178
12. Jehovah’s Witnesses--Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, 1993, p. 201; Zion’s Watch Tower, November 15, 1907, p. 351; Zion’s Watch Tower, December 1, 1904, p. 364
13. Zion’s Watch Tower, July 1, 1898, p. 204; Zion’s Watch Tower, August 1, 1898, p. 231
14. Zion’s Watch Tower, October 1, 1900, p. 296; Zion’s Watch Tower, July 15, 1902, p. 216
15. The Watch Tower, March 15, 1913, p. 84; Pennsylvania Superior Court Reports, vol. 37, p. 351
16. Thy Kingdom Come, (Studies, vol. 3) p. 327
17. Jehovah’s Witnesses--Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, 1993, p. 201; Finished Mystery, (Studies, vol. 7) 1917, p. 60

How can a man teach all these lies and still have the truth? The fact that a JWs would be disfellowshipped for teaching these things today, is proof that any religion that teaches these things is not the true religion; otherwise, why cut him off from the entire body of Christ and from salvation? Nor could the changes made respecting these doctrines be minor, otherwise there would be no need to disfellowship a person for teaching them! Completely cast out a man for teaching a MINOR error? Yeah right! These are such big issues that you can loose your status as a JW for teaching the same things the organization taught years ago!Finally, if all other denominations had your attitude, they would not read your literature nor come to your kingdom hall, for they think that your religion is false, and to be avoided JUST AS you avoid theirs!

[evantisin]

Hi jahrule84,

Perhaps I can clear some things up about that.

First of all, Jehovah's Witnesses have already publicly retracted on those interpretations and apologized.

The publication dates you've cited range anywhere from the early Biblical chronology back in the 1880s to the chronology of the 6,0000 years since Adam's creation (which would theoretically end in 1975) in the years preceding 1975.

In recent years, the Jehovah's Witnesses have published apologies over their regret and gave explanations over their interpretation of the Bible's prophecies.

Just for emphasis, I'll cite only the exact quotes again:

Watchtower 1980 3/15 Choosing the Best Way of Life

It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

Reasoning From the Scriptures (published in 1985) False Prophets

Have not Jehovah's Witnesses made errors in their teachings?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.

.....

It is true that the Witnesses have made mistakes in their understanding of what would occur at the end of certain time periods, but they have not made the mistake of losing faith or ceasing to be watchful as to fulfillment of Jehovah's purposes. They have continued to keep to the fore in their thinking the counsel given by Jesus: "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."-Matt. 24:42.

1980 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses

A fine point made in the talk "Choosing the Best Way of Life" was that Jehovah God will save us from stumbling-even as he did David in the case of Nabal's insolence-but we must do our part. The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society's responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975.

Watchtower 1979 3/1 To Whom Shall We Go but Jesus Christ?

Because of this hope, the "faithful and discreet slave" has alerted all of God's people to the sign of the times indicating the nearness of God's Kingdom rule. In this regard, however, it must be observed that this "faithful and discreet slave" was never inspired, never perfect. Those writings by certain members of the "slave" class that came to form the Christian part of God's Word were inspired and infallible, but that is not true of other writings since. Things published were not perfect in the days of Charles Taze Russell, first president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society; nor were they perfect in the days of J. F. Rutherford, the succeeding president.

Citing old, out-dated interpretation of Biblical prophecies from the 1880s to 1970s isn't doing much good.

Jehovah's Witnesses have moved on and study and emphasize more certain scripture to put into relevant practice. Why haven't you?

Second of all, Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT PROPHECY and they are NOT "inspired."

Jehovah's Witnesses interpret the Bible's prophecies.

The Watchtower 1 January 1969

"Ever since 'The Watchtower' began to be published in July of 1879 it has looked ahead into the future... No, 'The Watchtower' is no inspired prophet, but it follows and explains a Book of prophecy the predictions in which have proved to be unerring and unfailing till now. 'The Watchtower' is therefore under safe guidance. It may be read with confidence, for its statements may be checked against that prophetic Book."

Concerning Biblical prophecy, you must understand that Christianity would not exist if the Jews did not interpret Biblical prophecy on the messiah's coming. The New Testament is littered with fulfillment of Biblical prophecy concerning the coming of the Christ, the heavenly ruler over Israel in the covenant with King David. (John 7:42; John 5:39; Matthew 26:54; Acts 17:11; Acts 18:28)

Jesus, the messiah foretold in Biblical prophecy, has come.

Is there any more Biblical prophecy left? Yes. In the first place, Jesus says he came to be a king:

John 18:36-37

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

When will the messiah rule as king over the world? When will the kingdom come?

People were expecting God's kingdom to come.

Luke 19:11

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

Acts 1:6

6So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

It's no wonder why, considering that it is prophesied in the Old Testament, and again in the New.

Keep in mind that Jesus says to keep on the watch for when the Jewish messiah's kingdom will appear:

Mark 13:32-37

32"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. 34It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

35"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. 36If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. 37What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "

Matthew 24:36-44

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Jesus clearly says that his followers MUST "keep on the watch" and be ready for the Kingdom's to come.

Third of all, the dates were NOT made up.

The dates were determined from Biblical prophecy concerning chronology.

For example, 1914 comes from the Old Testament book of Daniel and the New Testament book of Revelation.

In the first place, there are some details in what Old Testament scripture means to fulfill about the Jewish messiah.

2 Samuel 7:11-17
God will establish a kingdom for the successor to King David's throne. This is referring to the Jewish messiah. For Christians, it means Jesus would become king (which happened when Jesus was on Earth) and would finally rule the Kingdom of Heaven (which didn't happen when Jesus was on Earth).

Daniel 7:13-14
This discloses that the Jewish messiah will become established in the kingdom as king in heaven, not on Earth.

There are two prophecies from the scriptures that point towards a date of the kingdom being established. In both cases, they talk about people being exiled by God and then returning to their nation.

In prophecy and God's forewarning, God specifically sets prophetic days to refer to years, as stated in the following passages:
Ezekiel 4:4-8
Numbers 14:33-34

As in, short-term events in prophecy also symbolize long-term prophecy. In this cases, it's about exile and returning to God's kingdom. Thus, 1 prophetic day = 1 year.

Method from the New Testament:
Revelation 12:5-6,13-14
This prophetic passage deals with a woman leaving and then returning back.

Two wings = 2

A time, times and half a time = 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 3 1/2

2 * 3 1/2 = 7, which refers to the "7 times", is referenced in the following cases of prophetic scripture from the Old Testament book of Daniel.

1260 days = 1260 years because 1 prophetic day refers to 1 year.

1260 is doubled, so 1260 years * 2 = 2520 years, which is the number of years for a prophetic exile.

Method from the Old Testament:
Daniel 4:23-26,31-32
This prophetic passage deals with King Nebuchadnezzar being exiled and then acknowledging that God is supreme over all nations.

Seven times = 7

12 months * 30 days in each month in counting a year [people would count 360 days, rather than 365 as we do, in a year] = 360 prophetic days, or 360 years

7 * 360 years = 2520 years, which is, again, the number of years for a prophetic exile.

As recorded in the book of Daniel, God had it prophesied that Jerusalem would be uninhabited for 70 years.

Daniel 9:1-2

537 B.C. is when the exiles return in the literal sense, like with King Nebuchadnezzar's case of coming back to sanity in the preceding example from Daniel 4.

607 B.C. is 70 years earlier, which is when the Jews are no longer in Jerusalem and exiled at that time.

Now, the 2520 years in the prophetic number of years for an exile is applied to this date because from this time on, God has scattered the people of the symbolic state of Israel and the symbolic capital Jerusalem for that amount of time, leaving the nation "trampled" over by Gentiles rather than inhabited by Jews.

As in, the literal 70 years of exile and desolation of Jerusalem was the Gentile times in the short run (already fulfilled in 537 B.C.) while the symbolic 2520 years of exile and desolation of Jerusalem was the Gentile times in the long run (1914 A.D.). With these times, it's talking about symbolic Gentiles and symbolic Jews (those against God's heavenly nation and those a part of it).

Going 2520 years from the time of the 607 B.C. exile leads us to 1914 A.D., which is when Jewish messiah is set as king in the Kingdom of Heaven. The formal, specific time determined is about October of 607 B.C. to October of 1914 A.D.

607 B.C. (exile of the symbolic nation of Jerusalem) + 2520 years = 1914 A.D.

There are some details disclosed in the New Testament about what to expect:
Luke 21:20-24
Jerusalem will be "trampled" by Gentiles during the "times of the Gentiles."

Acts 1:9-11
Jesus Christ will come back in the same way he left, invisibly (hidden behind a cloud).

Luke 17:22-24
Jesus Christ will not be seen in the flesh and no human being around can claim to actually be Jesus Christ himself anyway.

John 18:36-37
Jesus' kingdom resides in heaven, not on Earth.

Luke 17:20-21
The Kingdom of Heaven is pervasive and continually being set up; you won't find it set on Earth.

That's how it was determined and what's expected. In short, the Jewish messiah enters kingship over his throne in the Kingdom of Heaven 2520 years after the spiritual exile of the Jews.

This 1914 prophecy is referred to in their 1876 magazines, among others, detailing determination of the date and the meanings of the Gentile times:
http://www.archive.org/details/1876BibleExaminer

http://photo.xanga.com/babylon_the_g...973/photo.html

Anyway, each prophetic date determined would refer to a different kind of prophecy mentioned in the scriptures. For example, 1975 refers to the 6,000 years since Adam's existence, determined from scriptural chronology. Other dates surrounding 1914 concern details about the messiah's reign as king and events on Earth, but while the core scriptural basis is only referring to the messiah set as king, Jehovah's Witnesses have been known to, of course, expect the worst and prepare for the worst. Jehovah's Witnesses take their lives seriously over trusting in God only, which also plays some part in the seriousness of some of their other beliefs. For example, they don't believe in hellfire, eternal suffering in hell and therefore don't fear hell at all. They're skeptical over getting anything in the middle of worshiping God (like idols, images, the cross), even if it's Jesus. Many of the great annihilations and great events in the Bible happened while most people ignored or disregarded God's warnings and prophesied details, so Jehovah's Witnesses continue to fear God and expect the worst concerning Biblical prophecies. They should always keep the scriptural basis in mind and not go any further, let alone set conclusions on some of the more vague ideas of Biblical prophecy.

Still, in recent times Jehovah's Witnesses have retracted from a number of the interpretations of the Bible's prophecies and have moved on to more certain scripture and theology. Discussing earlier prophecies is not so prevalent or anything they'd bother to talk about because it's not relevant to what they teach now.

I don't mean to offend or speak harshly about this, but you're making too big a deal over history that's been acknowledged and gone over.

I'm just trying to get the message through that Jehovah's Witnesses have changed and moved on.

You've emphasized and cited from the 4Jehovah apologist site the following quote:
http://www.4jehovah.org/jehovahs-witness-facts.php

Russell taught and published many doctrines that the current Watch Tower Society totally rejects and engaged in practices regarded by current Jehovah’s Witnesses to be of pagan origin. In fact, if Russell were a Jehovah’s Witness in the current Watchtower organization, he would have been disfellowshipped for his beliefs and practices!

Indeed, that's true. It's a testimony to the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are a people capable of admitting they're wrong and can change. They take what's current seriously. No good comes from biding in history. They learn from history and keep going, which is something I hope you might acknowledge.

It's been several decades since the last Biblical chronology determined and 1975 itself. Isn't that an obvious sign that they just aren't as much concerned with interpretation of the Bible's prophecies anymore?

What are you expecting from the Jehovah's Witnesses, anyway?

Sincerely,
evantisin

P.S.: The purpose of "Should You Believe in the Trinity" concerning what the Church Fathers believed was to show the various views of the church fathers that reflect a weak development of the Trinity doctrine and a few views that are, coincidentally, heretical or considered anathema by the Catholic Church. Jehovah's Witnesses frequently quote discussion of views as examples of others' similar beliefs, despite the fact that they may conflict with their own. They frequently quote the New International Version, despite the fact that there is a notable difference in translation of certain verses between the two. It's not that they painted a brush over the early Church Fathers as Unitarian, but just to emphasize examples of how they viewed Jesus. An argument from silence over the "Should You Believe in the Trinity" would just be making assumptions from filling in the blanks. There's no intention to say that the Church Fathers were like the Jehovah's Witnesses; just that some views on Jesus were vague and a bit similar.

Also, if Jehovah's Witnesses are in error over interpretation of the prophecy in Daniel 4:23-26,31-32 and Revelation 12:5-6,13-14, then please present YOUR interpretation of these prophecies from the Old and New Testament. I'm sure that Daniel 4 and Revelation 12 are in all Christians' Bibles. It's not as if the Protestant Reformation ripped those chapters out and declared them as uninspired, like they did with the books of Maccabbees and Wisdom, right?

Again, no hard feelings. There are some pretty generalized claims being made here.

[jahrule84]

Admitting that they are wrong does not stop false prophets from being false prophets. They claimed inspiration. They predicted the end. That = false prophets. Using the imperfections of Biblical persons is no excuse for false prophesying; none of God's people in the Bible were guilty of the same thing as JWs. They had some wrong expectations, but DID NOT MAKE THEIR PERSONAL OPINIONS COMPULSORY DOCTRINE FOR THE WHOLE CHURCH, as JWs have done! At best, it makes JWs false teachers. Owning up to the mistakes and claiming that u have changed does not cancel the fact that u belong to a movement that has been against God's leading from the start.

They taught that Russell was the faithful slave for about 30 years! I mean, come on! How long, and how many times, must a religion teach falsehood and prophesy falsely to be false?

You claim that JWs have moved on, but they haven't. They are still teaching lies. Your won NWT:

"As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: 'Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for thework towhich I have called them.' Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them and let them go. Accordingly these men, sent out by the holy spirit, went down to Selucia." Acts 13:2-4

Here the holy spirit isa person. This is no personification, for it gives the actual words the holy spirit spoke, and it puts them in inverted commas. The holy spirit was speaking to the prophets. No doubt, a person said these words; and THE TEXT says that it was the holy spirit.

Did a force say "set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for thework towhich I have called them"? Were they "sent out by" a force? You might claim that someone must have been speaking through the holy spirit; but first, THE TEXT does not say that! The text says, "the holy spirit said." And second, God speaks through persons. Heb 1:1,2. He always spoke "through" the prophets, indicating that they were his representatives, PERSONS, who could speak for God. So even this does not negate the persoanlity of the spirit, but adds to it.

Even if you say that Acts 13:2-4 cannot mean that the holy spirit is a person because it would contradict other texts, that goes both ways; the other texts cannot prove that the holy spirit is merely a force because it would contradict Acts 13:2-4 and all the many others that show the personhood of the holy spirit!

Please, examine your own logic. "You can't be filled with a person?" Why are you confused between spirit persons and humans? You can't be filled with humans? But 7 demons can "fill" a man, can they not? The holy spirit, being more powerful, can do even greater works! Why can't you be "filled" with a spirit? JWs reduce the Comforter to impersonal force like elctricity, again, false teaching. You may reject what I say now, but as it is with most JWs, when the Governing Body changes its mind, so will you! All the years and years, decades, that many people were telling them that their time prophecies of the end were futile because Jesus said no one knows the time, they didn't listen! They did not except the plain words of Jesus "you know not when the appointed time is;" but when a small group of brothers in Brooklyn changed their minds, so did all JWs worldwide! Can you not see how unfair it is to control people's minds like that?

Dan 7:25
"seven times themselves will pass over you [Nebuchadnezzer], until you [Nebuchadnezzer] know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it."

It was, not JWs, but Nebuchadnezzer, who lived in the wild, ate grass, over whom 7 times passed before HE knew that Jehovah ruled in the kingdom, and that he can give it to anyone he wants to. This is not a prophecy about when the kingdom would be set up, but is merely a statement that 7 times will pass before Nebuchadnezzer KNOWS (1) that Jehovah rules the kingdom, and (2) he can give it to whoever he wants to. That doesn't actually say that '7 times will pass before the kingdom is set up.' THE TEXT, says no such thing!

A day does not equal a year in Biblical prophecies; it equals a year in Ezekiel 4:4-8 and Numbers 14:33-34, but this is not CONSISTENTLY the case. Gen 7:4. Was this 7 years just because these are prophetic days? And if ur going to use a-day-for-a-year, why not use a day = a thousand years? 2 Pet 3:8. The 1000 yrs = 1 day is just as non-related to Dan 7 as the day-for-a-year rule. God could have put the day = year thing in Dan 7, but he didn't for there was no need. The 1 day = 1 yr is not a PRINCIPLE for all Bible prophecy, and just because it occured in Eze and Num is no criteria for applying it to Daniel! A day meant a year in those circumstances, in those instances, but GOD DID NOT SAY A DAY = A YR IN DAN 7! Based on what are u using the day-for-a-year as a general rule for Bible prophecy?

If you really want me to give my understanding of Rev, that will be a long post. I am trying to keep them as short as I can.
Good day.