Do you pray to Mary or saints?

[princesa]

Does the bible instruct this?

If not, why is it done?

I've never understood the intercession aspect of prayer. It was my understanding [via the bible] that Jesus was the only intercessor.

I haven't opened my bible in eons so perhaps my interpretation was wrong, although I doubt it. I appreciate your insights on the matter.

[Thersites]

Needless to say, many see this as a very sensitive issue. One might embark on a log seres of discourses to give somewhat logical reasons for such a practice, but there is no direct Biblical prompt for this practice, if that's what you're asking.

And yes, I do it. If you care to sit and listen for the next three hours, I could explain it to you

[princesa]

well, yes, that's what I'm asking.

If you can abridge those those 3 hours into a summation of 3 paragraphs (or even long sentences) that would suffice. thanks

[ChemMJW]

This is indeed a very sensitive issue.

I would remind you of a couple of things, though:

1. The massively overwhelming majority of the world's Christians (made up of the Catholics and the Orthodox) do pray intercessory prayers to saints (Mary is a saint herself, so there is no need to make a distinction between saints and Mary). Therefore, the Protestant hesitation to do so is actually the heterodox practice, simply by definition. Therefore, the question you have put forth is most rightly and logically stated as "Why do Protestants refuse to ask the saints for intercession before God?" or something similar.

2. People who pray to saints for intercession with God do not, despite what anyone tells you, believe that saints have some magical powers or authority to do anything apart from God. We all know that God himself is the source of all answers to prayers. The Bible suggests that God can be moved by prayers, so having the saints praying for us is just another tool in that spiritual equipment chest.

[Manwë Súlimo]

No, I don't, although I'm not as dogmatic against it as I once was.

[princesa]

Oh boy, OBVIOUSLY saints weren't mentioned in the Bible. Lol, I suppose I shouldn't be in so much haste when thinking (typing) out loud although I am a bit surprised no one mentioned my blunder.

In any case, I do believe there are many folks that feel these intercessions do hold a magical/miraculous power over their prayers.

I'm not against it, neither do I participate in it mostly because I always felt my prayer to Jesus was 'good enough'.

[Manwë Súlimo]

Oh boy, OBVIOUSLY saints weren't mentioned in the Bible. Lol, I suppose I shouldn't be in so much haste when thinking (typing) out loud although I am a bit surprised no one mentioned my blunder.

In any case, I do believe there are many folks that feel these intercessions do hold a magical/miraculous power over their prayers.

I'm not against it, neither do I participate in it mostly because I always felt my prayer to Jesus was 'good enough'.

Basically, that's how I feel. But I can see why some see praying to saints no different than asking a friend to pray for them.

[RBerman]

1. The massively overwhelming majority of the world's Christians (made up of the Catholics and the Orthodox) do pray intercessory prayers to saints (Mary is a saint herself, so there is no need to make a distinction between saints and Mary). Therefore, the Protestant hesitation to do so is actually the heterodox practice, simply by definition. Therefore, the question you have put forth is most rightly and logically stated as "Why do Protestants refuse to ask the saints for intercession before God?" or something similar.

2. People who pray to saints for intercession with God do not, despite what anyone tells you, believe that saints have some magical powers or authority to do anything apart from God. We all know that God himself is the source of all answers to prayers. The Bible suggests that God can be moved by prayers, so having the saints praying for us is just another tool in that spiritual equipment chest.

How many of these other parts of the world have you visited? You may not believe that saints have magical powers, but many, many people praying to them around the world treat them exactly like that. It's pure superstition to think that particular saints have particular spheres of authority delegated to them by God. The saint of bunions, the saint of selling your house, bleah bleah bleah. Henotheism at its finest.

The reason Protestants "refuse" to do it is that we need reasons to do things, not reasons not to do them. Two totally different approaches to, "What does God want me to do?"

[Alucard]

I'll quote Frederica Mathewes-Green, if I may.

Upon chrismation, each new Orthodox claims a saint from he church's rich history as his or her own. Often the person will assume that saint's name and lay aside the birth name, entering new life in Christ with a new identity. This saint becomes that person's patron, a special intercessor and friend in high places.

Because the role of these saints is so often misunderstood, it's good to take a look at what saints are not. First, and most important, they are not dead. Life in Christ is eternal life, and they are merely on the other side of the veil, continuing that everlasting life that they began, as we do on this side. This is why the interior of Orthodox churches are coverered with icons; it makes visible the unseen reality that our worship is lifting us into the heavenly realms, where we stand with the faithful of the centuries.

Lest this confidence in he saints' heavenly reality be pushed to an unhealthy extreme, it's important to note something else they are not: they are not deputy Gods. We don't ask them to perform supernatural feats under their own power, like superheroes with individual areas of expertise (this one finds lost keys, that one makes houses sell). We ask their prayers, just as we might ask the prayers of our friends here on earth, though we assume that standing in the unclouded presence of God gives special power to their intercessions. Unlike our friends on earth, the saints do not chat with us in return. Two-way conversation is not the goal.

Finally, the saints are not God's receptionist. We don't submit petitions to our favorite saints instead of praying to God; they don't stand between us and the Almight, transcribing our requests and turning them in at an end-of-day meeting. We still bring our intercessions directly to the throne of the Father. But there is a place for uniting with fellow Christians in our prayers, and no reason to exclude from that the brothers and sisters who have gone on to stand before the throne.

Facing East, 2006, p214

[ChemMJW]

How many of these other parts of the world have you visited? You may not believe that saints have magical powers, but many, many people praying to them around the world treat them exactly like that.

I have lived in two countries on two different continents for extended periods, and I have traveled to many more countries on three continents. I don't know how much traveling you personally have done, but I suspect my traveling and exposure to other places in the world probably puts me higher than at least 95% of the members of TWeb. Does that automatically make me an expert in world religious practice? Of course not, but it does lend me an empirical insight that many others do not necessarily possess.

The reason Protestants "refuse" to do it is that we need reasons to do things, not reasons not to do them. Two totally different approaches to, "What does God want me to do?"

Eh, I suppose I can accept this as a superficial justification. Does God want you to eat your and ? I don't recall any scriptures with specific veggie-related commands, but the fact that healthy eating is good for the body and mind is easily reasoned from other principles. That is the essence of the distinction between the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox view. Protestants view Biblical silence (particularly on this issue) as evidence that God does or does not approve of a particular practice, while Catholics/Orthodox are willing to apply logic and reasoning to the sum total of Biblical revelation (which, after all, comprises a mere several hundred pages) to reach conclusions about matters which God did not or could not address when the Bible was composed. Whether a person believes a certain chain of logical reasoning is, of course, a different matter, but we shouldn't let someone's possible disbelief prevent us from doing the exploration in the first place.

[RBerman]

I have lived in two countries on two different continents for extended periods, and I have traveled to many more countries on three continents. I don't know how much traveling you personally have done, but I suspect my traveling and exposure to other places in the world probably puts me higher than at least 95% of the members of TWeb. Does that automatically make me an expert in world religious practice? Of course not, but it does lend me an empirical insight that many others do not necessarily possess.

OK. Our mileage obviously varies substantially, since in Haiti, Peru, Ecuador, Jamaica, and Mexico I observed an extremely superstitious approach to the topic of saints among the people with whom I worked. Not that abuse invalidates the concept of proper use. I'm just contesting the idea that "People all over the world do it" means "It is right, and I must defend my choice not to do it."

Eh, I suppose I can accept this as a superficial justification. Does God want you to eat your and ? I don't recall any scriptures with specific veggie-related commands, but the fact that healthy eating is good for the body and mind is easily reasoned from other principles. That is the essence of the distinction between the Protestant and Catholic/Orthodox view. Protestants view Biblical silence (particularly on this issue) as evidence that God does or does not approve of a particular practice, while Catholics/Orthodox are willing to apply logic and reasoning to the sum total of Biblical revelation (which, after all, comprises a mere several hundred pages) to reach conclusions about matters which God did not or could not address when the Bible was composed. Whether a person believes a certain chain of logical reasoning is, of course, a different matter, but we shouldn't let someone's possible disbelief prevent us from doing the exploration in the first place.

Not everything we should do is explicit in Scripture, granted. Some things we do by good and necessary inference from Scripture. Which Scriptures teach us that particular saints have particular spheres of responsibility of earthly authority? When I ask my friends to pray for me, I don't just ask the doctors to pray for my health and the realtors to pray for my house. Why would we have a different practice when it comes to asking prayer from saints that we've never met? Doesn't it smell even a teensy bit like Greek and Roman ancient religions? Or is Alucard saying that the Eastern Church's practice is not to identify particular saints with particular spheres, but rather each Christian adopts a particular saint as his personal mascot (or perhaps adopts himself as the saint's mascot, depending on your POV) and asks him to pray for all sorts of different things? I want to be careful not to mix up RCC and EO practices.

[semmie]

I'll quote Frederica Mathewes-Green, if I may.

...there is a place for uniting with fellow Christians in our prayers, and no reason to exclude from that the brothers and sisters who have gone on to stand before the throne.

Facing East, 2006, p214

so...i'm on the fence regarding this topic. i'm protestant, by default...with interest in orthodoxy & catholicism. but i have a question about this...and if it doesn't belong in this thread, maybe someone can direct me elsewhere, but...because you quoted this, Alucard, i thought i'd start here...

is there any distinction between the saints and non-sainted believers in regards to prayer? can we ask our deceased uncle to intercede for us, though he not be a saint? what does the Church say about that?

pax christi.
sarah

[JAYMZ]

Can I get a straight answer to this.
When I pray to Jesus does he or does he not hear my earnest prayer?
Isnt prayer from people who have not yet gone to be with the Father?
Are you not assuming that dead christians, now with God, can evan hear you or know whats goin on in this world?
Asking my fellow brother at my local church to pray for me is not the same as asking a dead person.

[ChemMJW]

Can I get a straight answer to this.

Ask, and you shall receive.

When I pray to Jesus does he or does he not hear my earnest prayer?

Yes.

Isnt prayer from people who have not yet gone to be with the Father?

Yes, in that the manner available to humans by which we communicate with God is known as "prayer."

Perhaps we should simply use a different term for the communication between God and those who, having died, are already with God. We tend to use the word "prayer" for this as well, but that might simply be because it is the "God communication word" that we are most familiar with. Previous posters in this thread have made the useful distinction, though, that people who are in heaven can behold God's face directly, while we on earth cannot. Therefore, a useful analogy might be that the saints in heaven "speak" to God directly (as you and I could if we were in the same room), whereas mortals on earth "pray" to God, because we do not see him face to face.

Are you not assuming that dead christians, now with God, can evan hear you or know whats goin on in this world?

It is worth repeating what others have already pointed out - the saints in heaven are not dead; they are simply enjoying the heavenly life which is different than the physical type of life we enjoy here on earth. I know of nothing to suggest that going to heaven involves becoming deaf, mute, blind, and isolated. In fact, just the opposite. The glorified bodies those resurrected in Christ inhabit do not suffer from any limitations of the normal earthly life. This is of course very hard to understand, because heaven is just that much different than earth.

Asking my fellow brother at my local church to pray for me is not the same as asking a dead person.

I agree, it is much different. Your brother is a sinner who, during his earthly life, can only behold God "through a glass, darkly." The saints in heaven, however, have been freed from sin and now see God "face to face." This details of this wondrous transformation are beyond our ability to comprehend, so it is shortsighted to draw conclusions about their "abilities" (for lack of a better term) by projecting our earthly human frailties on them.

[JAYMZ]

OK this begs the question...
Both protestants and RCC agree that Jesus hears our prayers.
They are not in agreement that saints can hear or even intercede on our behalf.
Why not play it safe and just pray to Jesus or God for that matter.

Just for the record I didnt mean dead people are not alive in some fashion.
We know saints are with God but we dont know if they are aware of what is going on in this world.
Honestly would God allow them to see that this world is still as sick as it was when they were alive?