Finding God Through Contemplation

[Vivian]

If you have read any of my posts on this subject you may be aware that I do not hold to the implied notion that "...one cannot comprehend God without the Greek language..." - i.e., knowledge from outward to inward. I have not formed a view via any language....rather I am searching for the words to express a view formed in me by revelation - i.e, knowledge from inward to outward. Consequently I can only provide contrast to the scholar's conclusions by presenting my own.

Hi spitndirt!

I wanted to thank you for your sharing of your revelations. It is a joy to read from others' inner knowing, and anytime you wish to share more, I am available!

I find sharing in words helps to solidify our inner knowings, giving what is often without form, words and images with which we can communicate with others.

One comment you made was beautifully put, which I feel wisdom calls for our close attention.

You said that Theos exists independently of Logos, but Logos cannot exist independently of Theos. This is a key that will open up much understanding of the nature of Three of Attributes of God represented in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Certainly the Son cannot exist without the Father, meaning that they are not equal, and especially not the same. Such a connotation/relationship would not have been given to us if they were equal and the same.

I humbly offer apostli that I am not qualified to dialogue with you for I am not an expert in Greek. But a lesson that I learned, that I wish to share with you, puts understanding from language versus understanding from experience into perspective.

In Exodus 20:18, the Hebrew clearly says that the people SAW the thunderings and noises of God. If we relied solely on language we would have to conclude that thunderings and noises are things that are perceived with human mundane sight. But since experience tells us otherwise, we know that the literal translation of the words are not to be taken to heart. That something else is being revealed here.

It is the same with the language of the Bible clearly indicating that the world is flat. It was not until collective human experience revealed otherwise that we saw that there was a deeper, not obvious, meaning to these scriptures.

It took an actual experience of a round world for us to see that even though the acurate translation was clear and certain, this is not what the author intended. The author was pointing to something else that might not be understandable to the human intellect without an actual experience of it.

And likewise after we have experienced God's thunderings and trumpets, we can go back to scripture and understand why such an experience is described as seeing.

And so I offer that what spitndirt is trying to communicate is that his inner experiencing of God gives deeper understanding into the words of John 1, an understanding that cannot be seen with the language alone. Spitndirt has had an experience of Theos and Logos, an experience perhaps akin or likened to the exeprience had by Apostle John, and so can now look into the Biblical words and see more clearly what is meant.

Just as the wise listened to those with understanding beyond the clear language of the Bible regarding the shape of our world, the wise would look beyond the clear language of John 1 to understand the nature of Theos and Logos.

Why one can begin just looking around them, at this world and the universe that houses it to expand our understanding of Theos and Logos!

Just as the astrologers looked to the stars to see that the world is round.


Shalom.

Viv

[apostoli]

Hello Vivian,

I humbly offer apostoli that I am not qualified to dialogue with you for I am not an expert in Greek.

And nor am I! I have only a lay knowledge and am dependent on the experts for the nitty gritty just like everyone else. However, over the years I have laboured to understand what they are talking about.

Years ago, I outlayed a lot of money to acquire books, and outlayed a lot of time reading them, often without any real profit. These days access to knowledge is easy and convenient via the internet. Everything from the full works of the philosophers, the ante-nicea fathers, lexicons, greek grammars, commentaries, you name it, and most of it free! With the tools available to us, what once took me weeks, months and even years to research, I can now do in hours or at worst days. If one has the time available, it is just a matter of desire.

My reference to the Greek is just a safe gaurd. A benchmark if you will. If you have a peak at post #1, you see that even a simple word like archē offers a wide range of opinion. All I'm asking of people, is to not give just an opinion, we have lots of them. However, from all sides, I rarely encounter a substantiation/justification for a particular opinion.

But a lesson that I learned, that I wish to share with you, puts understanding from language versus understanding from experience into perspective.

I'm very big on learning from experience and it is experience/s of mine that incline me to seek out an understanding of the language and idioms of scripture.

If I may share: Back in 2003 I took a few months off and went walkabout from Turkey to Spain. As much as possible I kept away from the tourist traps and went bush. Turkey was OK, everyone seems to be able to speak English no matter where you are. Greece! Now that was a culture shock. I spent a lot of time in Greece's outback, not intentionally, just that I kept getting lost. After a lot of time not speaking English, I bumped into a Canadian couple and it took me a little while before I could communicate with them. It seems my survival instincts had kicked in and I was speaking some strange language that was sufficient for the Greeks to understand my immediate wants. There are a lot of Greek words in English, one just needs to become aware of them. By the way, I don't consciously speak Greek.

In Exodus 20:18, the Hebrew clearly says that the people SAW the thunderings and noises of God. If we relied solely on language we would have to conclude that thunderings and noises are things that are perceived with human mundane sight. But since experience tells us otherwise, we know that the literal translation of the words are not to be taken to heart. That something else is being revealed here.

Poetry aside, thunderings and noises can and do have a visual spectrum eg: if the thunders or noises are loud enough you might see your windows shake and the doors rattle etc or in the case of Exodus they may have seen otherwise inexplicable rock falls and tents collapsing etc.

I suspect you have never experienced a sonic boom. My school was in the flight path to the airport. One day we experienced one, from a passing jet (sonic jets were hardly known of at the time). Windows broke, books fell off the shelves etc and there was panic. All classes were evacuated to the playground. Now what if something like that happened to a primitive society - say in the highlands of New Guinea, where there are still tribes being discovered who know nothing of the modern world.

It is the same with the language of the Bible clearly indicating that the world is flat.

I doubt that the Bible clearly indicates that the world is flat. Imo, the Bible relates the perspective of the nomads. have you even been camping and layed on your back looking at the stars.

In terms of "science", the flat earth idea, as passed down in the west, came from the collective wisdom of the Greek philosophers and if I recall correctly traces to the Pythagorean school and their ideas about harmony.

They were a funny lot. For instance: today most western music is tuned in what is called equal temperament. Before that the standard was Phythagorean. Now the idea of equal temperament tuning goes back almost to the days of Pythagoras. A guy named Aristoxenus came up with the idea. However, the ancients rejected it because they considered it disharmoneous (they also persecuted Aristoxenus). In later days the church got involved and some twit decided as Phythagorean tuning had a basis in perfect fifths that the 3 in its ratio 3:2 represented the Trinity. Everything was honky dory until the Piano was invented and became the lead instrument in orchestration. And there was a need to get all instruments to play in the same key. The rest is history.

If you have a close read of history you'll find it was the "thinkers" (especially the Greeks) that came up with many of the past's crack pot ideas. For instance: Aristotle determined that women were inferior to men because they could not produce sperm. He classified them as "defective men"

Now have a read of Genesis and you'll find that God equates male and female.

It was not until collective human experience revealed otherwise that we saw that there was a deeper, not obvious, meaning to these scriptures.

It took an actual experience of a round world for us to see that even though the accurate translation was clear and certain, this is not what the author intended. The author was pointing to something else that might not be understandable to the human intellect without an actual experience of it.

And likewise after we have experienced God's thunderings and trumpets, we can go back to scripture and understand why such an experience is described as seeing.

I don't want to seem contrary for the sake of it but my experience tells me otherwise. In my observation, it is collective experience (agreed opinion) that stifled many advances in the sciences and allegory that causes error (and we are led back to Pythagoras and his theory of harmony).

As for seeing the thunderings and trumpets etc see Exodos 19:9, 17-19 and Exodus 20:20-22. These texts indicate a physical phenomenon which was intentionally employed to instill the fear of God and his commandments into the Israelites. Might seem a bit theatrical to us, but God was dealing with a bunch of hard hearted, superstitious pagan types.

I do appreciate that the thunderings and lightenings can be compared to traumatic events in our lives. I personally have lived the life not totally unlike Job. But I don't conceive my life's turmoils as punishment or a calling. Though they have been testing.

And so I offer that what spitndirt is trying to communicate is that his inner experiencing of God gives deeper understanding into the words of John 1, an understanding that cannot be seen with the language alone. Spitndirt has had an experience of Theos and Logos, an experience perhaps akin or likened to the experience had by Apostle John, and so can now look into the Biblical words and see more clearly what is meant.

I respect the privacy of anyones opinion. However, we have the councel of A.Paul "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets." (1 Cor 14:29-32)

We also have a warning about prophets who teach another Gospel.

Just as the wise listened to those with understanding beyond the clear language of the Bible regarding the shape of our world, the wise would look beyond the clear language of John 1 to understand the nature of Theos and Logos.

And yet, John 1 does not give us that latitude. We could attempt the impossible and try to define the nature, the personal private existence of God, but for what purpose?

Why one can begin just looking around them, at this world and the universe that houses it to expand our understanding of Theos and Logos!

I might agree but in terms of John 1:3 we would first see the logos and realise the theos.

Just as the astrologers looked to the stars to see that the world is round.

You'll probably find it was the astrologers that came up with the idea of the flat earth and that the universe revolved around the earth ;-)

___________________

I may not agree with spitndirt but some things he says invoke thoughts of my own. In anycase we respect each others opinions and sometime back agreed to disagree.

Peace

[Vivian]

Hello Vivian,

Hi apostoli! (I apologize for misspelling your name in the previous post.)

And nor am I! I have only a lay knowledge and am dependent on the experts for the nitty gritty just like everyone else. However, over the years I have laboured to understand what they are talking about.

Aha!

And your labor will not pass without reward.

Years ago, I outlayed a lot of money to acquire books, and outlayed a lot of time reading them, often without any real profit. These days access to knowledge is easy and convenient via the internet. Everything from the full works of the philosophers, the ante-nicea fathers, lexicons, greek grammars, commentaries, you name it, and most of it free! With the tools available to us, what once took me weeks, months and even years to research, I can now do in hours or at worst days. If one has the time available, it is just a matter of desire.

Indeed the internet is a marvelous tool. I am an academic/researcher at heart and so the internet is my playground.

Your comment though - often without any real profit - brought back a memory. Many years ago when I was studying Hebrew, and Jewish understanding of written and oral Torah, I was surrounded with books and printouts lying everywhere around me. Trying to sieve tiny bits of knowledge from it all. God put an image of myself in my mind and the words - don't you look silly?!

It sure made me laugh.

And conclude that all that effort resulted in only minuscule rewards, and so now I focus on inward contemplation and revelation, letting God show me through what I already know verities about himself and his creation.

My reference to the Greek is just a safe gaurd. A benchmark if you will. If you have a peak at post #1, you see that even a simple word like archē offers a wide range of opinion. All I'm asking of people, is to not give just an opinion, we have lots of them. However, from all sides, I rarely encounter a substantiation/justification for a particular opinion.

I agree that from where we sit now, far removed from the initial giving of the teaching in language and in culture, there is, from looking at the multiplicity of meanings in each word, an array of possible interpretations.

I'm very big on learning from experience and it is experience/s of mine that incline me to seek out an understanding of the language and idioms of scripture.

Yes. This is the key. It is in our experience of the world within us and without us, that we can come to find true meaning in the words.

If I may share: Back in 2003 I took a few months off and went walkabout from Turkey to Spain. As much as possible I kept away from the tourist traps and went bush. Turkey was OK, everyone seems to be able to speak English no matter where you are. Greece! Now that was a culture shock. I spent a lot of time in Greece's outback, not intentionally, just that I kept getting lost. After a lot of time not speaking English, I bumped into a Canadian couple and it took me a little while before I could communicate with them. It seems my survival instincts had kicked in and I was speaking some strange language that was sufficient for the Greeks to understand my immediate wants. There are a lot of Greek words in English, one just needs to become aware of them. By the way, I don't consciously speak Greek.

Wow. It is often in these times, when we step out of regular routine, that God can speak to us the most. Or the most powerfully. Such a trek is a longing of mine. And as a recent widow I am looking to take my two kids on a small trek, through Asia, focusing on Nepal.

Poetry aside, thunderings and noises can and do have a visual spectrum eg: if the thunders or noises are loud enough you might see your windows shake and the doors rattle etc or in the case of Exodus they may have seen otherwise inexplicable rock falls and tents collapsing etc.

Indeed this is a key in our understanding. Looking at how we 'see' noises in the physical - all the ways a noise, or a vibration, manifests itself in the physical. And until we have an actual experience of God's thunderings and trumpets, this is our best means of finding meaning - looking into the world around us, and within us. For certainly the design of creation is not random, but based on patterns or archetypes found in heaven.

I would say that the physical has been created in the same pattern as the spiritual. And so by looking into the physical we can gain some understanding of the spiritual. And on the other side of the coin, when we are gifted with looks into the spiritual, our understanding of the physical blossoms.

I suspect you have never experienced a sonic boom. My school was in the flight path to the airport. One day we experienced one, from a passing jet (sonic jets were hardly known of at the time). Windows broke, books fell off the shelves etc and there was panic. All classes were evacuated to the playground. Now what if something like that happened to a primitive society - say in the highlands of New Guinea, where there are still tribes being discovered who know nothing of the modern world.

Indeed. Such experiences can give us ideas regarding the spiritual. In other words, our understanding of the spiritual has to coincide with, be in harmony with, our actual experiencing the physical.

For example, God gave us the image of a Father God and a Son God, and a Holy Spirit/Shekinah God or Mother God. Certainly a Triune God. This designation is not just random. God certainly knew and planned that we experience the father - mother - son relationships in physical reality. And in directing us to look at God in this way, he telling us something very important.

I function as Father-Mother-Son, just as a family functions in the material. I designed your whole life experience after Me.

And so what ever we see in the Triune Godhead, we must also see manifest in a physical family. In other words, what ever we say about the Father-Son, has to also be true of a father-son in this world.

Just think of this contemplation! When we wonder on these things, our awareness will open up to how the father-son relationship in the material is intended to function. And in this we will see the archetype in the divine Trinity, and how that archetype actually plays out in the physical.

We will see the dysfunction in the physical. We will see sin!

So such a contemplation will not only increase our understanding of God, but also our understanding of God's creation in its present state, or our understanding of ourselves.This is why scripture says when we see Him, we will also see ourselves, for we will be as he is.

I doubt that the Bible clearly indicates that the world is flat. Imo, the Bible relates the perspective of the nomads. have you even been camping and layed on your back looking at the stars.

Yes. I agree. It was a faulty scriptural interpretation based on limited human experience.

What a profound thought! We misinterpret scripture because of our limited experience in this world. This world, a life in this world, being a gift, a tool, for advancing our understanding of God.

In terms of "science", the flat earth idea, as passed down in the west, came from the collective wisdom of the Greek philosophers and if I recall correctly traces to the Pythagorean school and their ideas about harmony.

They were a funny lot. For instance: today most western music is tuned in what is called equal temperament. Before that the standard was Phythagorean. Now the idea of equal temperament tuning goes back almost to the days of Pythagoras. A guy named Aristoxenus came up with the idea. However, the ancients rejected it because they considered it disharmoneous (they also persecuted Aristoxenus). In later days the church got involved and some twit decided as Phythagorean tuning had a basis in perfect fifths that the 3 in its ratio 3:2 represented the Trinity. Everything was honky dory until the Piano was invented and became the lead instrument in orchestration. And there was a need to get all instruments to play in the same key. The rest is history.

I think there is an incredible contemplation, lesson to learn, in this, but given that I am completely ignorant of these facts, I will have to read over it again, and perhaps again and again!

If you have a close read of history you'll find it was the "thinkers" (especially the Greeks) that came up with many of the past's crack pot ideas. For instance: Aristotle determined that women were inferior to men because they could not produce sperm. He classified them as "defective men"

And as we, as collective humanity, advance in our experiences, these crack-pot ideas will be revealed and removed from our collective consciousness.

Take slavery for example. I imagine we are still in the process of removing that crack-pot idea from our collective consciousness, and look how many thousands of years it has taken!

Now have a read of Genesis and you'll find that God equates male and female.

Indeed. And so did Jesus.

I don't want to seem contrary for the sake of it but my experience tells me otherwise. In my observation, it is collective experience (agreed opinion) that stifled many advances in the sciences and allegory that causes error (and we are led back to Pythagoras and his theory of harmony).

Exactly! This is why it best not to cling to our ideas. What seems sound and right and true today, may prove to be crack pot tomorrow. This is why God keeps simplifying things for us.

Don't cling to your ideas! What is important is loving God and others. What is important is relationship, and of course advancing in our experiences so that we may grow and advance in our ideas. Continually becoming new wine skins so that we can be filled with the new.

God is so anti-fundamental!

As for seeing the thunderings and trumpets etc see Exodos 19:9, 17-19 and Exodus 20:20-22. These texts indicate a physical phenomenon which was intentionally employed to instill the fear of God and his commandments into the Israelites. Might seem a bit theatrical to us, but God was dealing with a bunch of hard hearted, superstitious pagan types.

You have made comments before I believe about Jewish traditional understandings? This is certainly a place to go to advance our understanding. When the Hebrew says God thundered, what does it mean?

What I have found is that it has everything to do with the eyes that See and ears that Hear spoken of in the New Testament. But this gets into non-material experiencing.

[And if we think logically, after all they have been through, wouldn't it take something supernatural to frighten the children of Israel!]

I do appreciate that the thunderings and lightenings can be compared to traumatic events in our lives. I personally have lived the life not totally unlike Job. But I don't conceive my life's turmoils as punishment or a calling. Though they have been testing.

Good insight. I have come to put it this way, all things work for God, work for the fulfillment of God's will - the coming together of all in heaven and all in earth as one in Christ.

Have your seen the movie Slumdog Millionaire? I think this is a story reflecting that same thought. Hence, even after all the suffering and pain, they laugh and smile and dance and sing - sort of how we do when we overcome.

I respect the privacy of anyones opinion. However, we have the councel of A.Paul "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets." (1 Cor 14:29-32)

Good verse. Not one that I am familiar with. Let me ponder this a moment...

Wow. This is excellent.

If we would all formulate our theological discussions by this admonition.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

What Paul is saying is that it is the spirits of the prophets who are guiding them in their revelations and such, and the prophets' spiritual guidance cannot be in contradiction to their physical guidance. [What we hear in spirit cannot contradict what is written.]

The spiritual revelations we receive move in harmony with the written revelation.

There are many layers or depths of understanding to this.

One is that there are different levels of understanding in scripture, depending on what we are ready to learn. And so this admonition is not just a warning, but in the warning encourages us to seek out those who are having similar inner revealings.

Some will be thus drawn to beginning spirituality, and some to advanced.

We also have a warning about prophets who teach another Gospel.

The problem we have with this is that we do not have the Gospel that Paul taught. We only have letters that he wrote addressing certain specific questions and problems that arose among his devotees. By making a Gospel out of these letters, it is easy to misuse what was said - turning problem addressing and solving into 'doctrine' - just as Peter warned.

I therefore look to Jesus for the Gospel and not to Paul's letters. Of course Paul's letters fit into the Gospel Jesus taught. But if we do the reverse, make our Gospel out of Paul's letters, then we find that much taught by Jesus does make sense or fit, so we have dilute it, adjust it, or even simply ignore it.

And yet, John 1 does not give us that latitude. We could attempt the impossible and try to define the nature, the personal private existence of God, but for what purpose?

A said before, I think the first place we ought to look to understand Theos and Logos is the father-son relationship we have been gifted with in this world.

I might agree but in terms of John 1:3 we would first see the logos and realise the theos.

In Hebrews, we are told that the Son is the express image of God in creation. An ideal Father-Son relationship, yes?

But something else comes to mind to throw out here...

1God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


The Son is more than Logos. Yes? Again look at a father-son relationship. Logos is the Seed of God, yes? And the sons carry the seed of the father. We cannot call them the seed, but they are the fruit of the seed, carrying the seed! Yes?

The Son was begotten, through the Seed or Logos coming forth from God, into the Womb of God. The Son then carried the Logos or Seed from the Father out into creation.

The Son though is more, much much more, than the Logos or Seed that he carries.

He is the first begotten of the Seed/Logos.

Before Jesus, the prophets came carrying lesser revelations of the Father out into the world. But in Jesus, we have the Son in fullness, carrying the Seed of the Father.

I will leave this here.

You'll probably find it was the astrologers that came up with the idea of the flat earth and that the universe revolved around the earth ;-)

There is that limited experiencing of the stars that led to limited ideas! I do understand though that it is a combination of experiencing and thinking or pondering on that experiencing that led to our advancing understandings. Experiencing alone is not enough (like with the early astrologers?!). It is a process, a journey, of experiencing and growing and advancing in our understanding of that experiencing.

(And again we have the spirits of the prophets guiding us with revelation and inner advancing awareness and understanding, if we would just listen!)

I may not agree with spitndirt but some things he says invoke thoughts of my own. In anycase we respect each others opinions and sometime back agreed to disagree.

Peace

It is the same with me. I enjoy his ponderings much. And yours as well, apostoli.

Thank you for the conversation.

Shalom.

Viv

[apostoli]

Hello Vivian,

Such a trek is a longing of mine. And as a recent widow I am looking to take my two kids on a small trek, through Asia, focusing on Nepal.

If you are adventurous, there are eco-friendly/socio-friendly organisations that do guided treks within Asia where you travel, eat and live like the locals. Imo, the only way you get to "see" a country.

There is one trip I'd like to do some day - over a couple of months you go from Singapore to Mongolia. Last time I looked, they fly over Laos because it is too dangerous, other than that you see a lot of countries and country via local bus (no coaches), local train, local boats and foot. I did my trip across southern europe alone and unguided, something I needed to do at the time, but not the best idea in the world - it can be a very lonely road when you don't speak the lingo. However, it can also be very rewarding: all you have for company is your own thoughts and observations.

Personally, given the tales I've heard from other travellers, I have no desire to go to Nepal. Especially, if the sole aim is a spiritual journey - you can have the same experience by staying in a monestary anywhere. If a healing journey is on order, then I recommend Brandon Bays, the Journey.
http://www.thejourneyusa.com/

My youngest son died of leukemia a few years ago, and a month before that, my mother had died. A year or so after, one November, a friend of mine talked me into going to one of Brandon's weekend seminars with her, that was to be held here in Sydney the following February. In that January another of my sons died (committed suicide). As you might imagine, I was in great need of healing. Basically what Brandon gives you is permission to cry for yourself, or more particularly, through deep breathing exercises etc, the ability - the release mechanism. She refers to it as the forgiving experience (whether it be forgiving yourself or someone else).

Heading for Nepal:

While in Turkey I met a couple of doctors who were on holiday. They had just become engaged. He was chaperoned by his mother, and she by her father. His heritage was Indian Malaysian and hers Chinese Malaysian, which once would have been an unusual coupling. Having been born and educated in Australia, they identified themselves not with their heritage but as Australian (culture & attitude). They admitted that their families were not happy with their relationship on ethic grounds, but that was more-or-less resolved as their immediate families had a common ground - they were first of all Christian. I found a message in that.

Anyway, they fell in love in Nepal while doing voluntary work as doctors. They were not at all impressed by the people or place. Apparently, just trying to educate them about disease was a huge problem. The core premise of the local religion is fatalism = whatever happens in your life is the will of the gods and there is nothing one can do to change it. Imo, a very ignorant premise, encouraged by their religion and politicians to ensure subservience of the people.

If you are going to Nepal you better be quick, what is so romantically portrayed to those of the baby boomer generation won't be there soon. Of course the mountains covered with snow should remain and maybe the odd tourist resort with their idealised representations of what they think the tourist wants. But the real country has the fastest rate of man made desertfication in the world - caused mainly from over population, deforestation and especially apathy.

All the good news we hear in the west relates to less than 5% of the population. And the romanticism festered by the insulated experiences of pampered tourists - few people venture out to see the reality. As Dor Bahadur Bista, a respected Nepalese accademic suggests: the root cause of Nepal's problems is that the leaders and peasants evade responsibility for their own actions. Imo, a product of their contemplative religion = contemplation of self.
http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/FILES/Fatalism.htm

Forgive me for being such a sceptic and a grumpy old man ;-). It is, well just (in fact very just in outcome), when I look at the world, I see that all the woes and worries - desertification, overpopulation, starvation, high mortality rates, wars, intolerance etc are the most rampant in regions where the local religion emphasises personal contemplative spirituality and not participation (and I include the religions of the Balkans/Greece and the middle east).

I do value personal contemplation. Imo, in a Christian perspective, the focus is not on self (as it is in the oriental religions), but contemplation of where one fits in the scheme of things and the wider community of man = ask not what God can do for you but what you can do to assist.

certainly the design of creation is not random, but based on patterns or archetypes found in heaven.

In someways I agree with you eg: man and woman were created in the image and likeness of God.

Imo, apart from the obvious (rationality, power to influence the creation etc) there is the intention of unity.

I would say that the physical has been created in the same pattern as the spiritual.

Here, I must differ. For Jesus tells us, the angels do not marry (and assuming the same moral laws apply in heaven as on earth, by implication, the angels don't procreate).

And so by looking into the physical we can gain some understanding of the spiritual.

I agree. Just watching the birds nesting, nurturing and teaching their young is insightful.

And on the other side of the coin, when we are gifted with looks into the spiritual, our understanding of the physical blossoms.

I see it the opposite way around: when we are gifted with looks into the reality of the physical, our understanding of the spiritual blossoms.

An exercise in communication I once participated in required that I explain the beauty of a rose (as if) to a thalidomide victim who was blind, had no arms or legs and no sensation of taste or odour. Actually, a simple task when you remove yourself from the equation and concentrate on what the other person can experience, and adjust ones paradigm concerning beauty from a sensory experience to an emotional one.

I suspect you have never experienced a sonic boom...

Indeed. Such experiences can give us ideas regarding the spiritual. In other words, our understanding of the spiritual has to coincide with, be in harmony with, our actual experiencing the physical.

To me it is like the first time you fall in love. All types of previously unknown physical and emotional experiences occur - we involuntarily enter the realms of the unknown.

For example, God gave us the image of a Father God and a Son God, and a Holy Spirit/Shekinah God or Mother God. Certainly a Triune God. This designation is not just random. God certainly knew and planned that we experience the father - mother - son relationships in physical reality. And in directing us to look at God in this way, he telling us something very important.

It is interesting that in the OT sophia (wisdom) is feminine, while in the NT the equivalent, the Logos, is masculine.

I don't see the father-mother as a duality of persons but as the common role of each person in the Trinity, each is father-mother as provider-nurturer in their various functions.

I function as Father-Mother-Son, just as a family functions in the material.

What about the daughters?

[God] designed your whole life experience after [Himself].

I would put it this way: The Father, speaking for the three "My design for you, was that you would live in unity, as we do. However, each man (and woman) is inclined to introspection and therefore selfishness, and so each man's (and each woman's) experiece is of his (her) own making."

And so what ever we see in the Triune Godhead, we must also see manifest in a physical family. In other words, what ever we say about the Father-Son, has to also be true of a father-son in this world.

And yet, rarely do we find it so.

Just think of this contemplation! When we wonder on these things, our awareness will open up to how the father-son relationship in the material is intended to function. And in this we will see the archetype in the divine Trinity, and how that archetype actually plays out in the physical. We will see the dysfunction in the physical. We will see sin!

I'm missing something here. Maybe you have omitted a thought. As it stands it seems you are infering that the father & son relationship in the Trinity is dysfunctional. But I'm assuming you mean that the earthly reality does not correspond to the intention of unity reflected in the Trinity.

If you have a close read of history you'll find it was the "thinkers" (especially the Greeks) that came up with many of the past's crack pot ideas. For instance: Aristotle determined that women were inferior to men because they could not produce sperm. He classified them as "defective men"

And as we, as collective humanity, advance in our experiences, these crack-pot ideas will be revealed and removed from our collective consciousness.

Wel_______l....Looking at history it has always been the collective mentality that has always set back progress = superstition or fixation on traditional ideas and/or preconceptions.

EG: "Throughout the Renaissance and the early development of modern science, astronomers refused to accept the existence of meteorites. The idea that stones could fall from space was regarded as superstitious and possibly heretical - surely God would not have created such an untidy universe?"
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-science.html

Take slavery for example. I imagine we are still in the process of removing that crack-pot idea from our collective consciousness, and look how many thousands of years it has taken!

And yet our entire civilisation remains tied to the concept of enslaving persons. Of course these days the system has been sanitised and the slaves are now called employees and/or consumers, and they think they are freemen.

it is best not to cling to our ideas. What seems sound and right and true today, may prove to be crack pot tomorrow. This is why God keeps simplifying things for us.

How so? The world seems more complicated now than it ever was when I was much younger.

Don't cling to your ideas! What is important is loving God and others. What is important is relationship, and of course advancing in our experiences so that we may grow and advance in our ideas. Continually becoming new wine skins so that we can be filled with the new.

I have a slightly different perspective. We grow in knowledge not by disgarding old ideas but questioning their relevence. If they are still true and relevent then we retain them. We grow as a person by releasing the self. That is: we change from the usual "what is in it for me mentality" to, "even if I get nothing in return how can I make someone else's life better?"

God is so anti-fundamental!

I think God is very fundemental = "serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function" ;-)

What I presume you mean is that he is anti-fundementalism = strong adherence to any set of opinions devised by man.

Jesus in his conversations with the religious leaders of his time demonstrates a high degree of intolerance of such types.

You have made comments before I believe about Jewish traditional understandings?

I don't recall. Though I certainly have inquired about them. And recently I may have parroted Rabbinic opinion on the eight names of the Messiah in Isaiah.

This is certainly a place to go to advance our understanding. When the Hebrew says God thundered, what does it mean?

Imu, it is usually depicted by the Rabbis as corresponding to God expressing his wrath or manifesting his power and strength. As at Exodos 20:18 it coincides with the lightning, smoking mountain and the trumpets it is obvious that it is component of a physical phenomena and not a metaphor.

"Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off" (ESV)

What I have found is that it has everything to do with the eyes that See and ears that Hear spoken of in the New Testament. But this gets into non-material experiencing.

I don't see the connection. Remember, despite their direct experience of God, the Israelites (even Moses) repeatedly disobeyed - the main reason they travelled in the desert for forty years - the original generation never saw the promised land.

And if we think logically, after all they have been through, wouldn't it take something supernatural to frighten the children of Israel!

Well, as their whole experience was surreal, and they kept lapsing, I guess, even though they were fearful at the time, ultimately, they were unconvinced by the theatrics (bit like Pharoah and his priests with the plagues).

Have you seen the movie Slumdog Millionaire? I think this is a story reflecting that same thought. Hence, even after all the suffering and pain, they laugh and smile and dance and sing - sort of how we do when we overcome.

I haven't seen the movie but saw an interview about it on Letterman. If you cut to the chase: of course they are going to be happy with their lot in life, they haven't a choice - their entire religion and culture is based on fatalism. They don't overcome, they accept. A big difference!

A saying: If we teach a man to fish, he can feed himself (optimism). However, if when teaching him, we take him to a particular spot on the river and catch fish (opportunism), but afterwards he returns day after day to that same spot (fatalism), and catches no fish, he will starve (realism). When we teach a man to fish, we must also teach him to find the fish (optimistic realism).

There are many layers or depths of understanding to this [1 Cor 14:29-32]. One is that there are different levels of understanding in scripture, depending on what we are ready to learn. And so this admonition is not just a warning, but in the warning encourages us to seek out those who are having similar inner revealings.

Not exactly. There must be at least two prophets who are prepared to speak in the presence of the congregation. One to speak and one to publicly affirm the correctness or otherwise. In the end, the whole congergation judges both prophets. No need to seek out anyone, they would be in your presence.

It is also worth keeping A.Peter's warning in mind "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; which you do well to take heed, as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecies of old came not by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:19-21)

Some will be thus drawn to beginning spirituality, and some to advanced.

There is validity in what you say. Some people may only have the constitution to accept the milk, and find the solid food difficult to digest.

We also have a warning about prophets who teach another Gospel.

The problem we have with this is that we do not have the Gospel that Paul taught.

Imo, A.Paul's testimony (Gospel) is easy enough to piece together. Apart from his letters we have the testimony of his cohorts Mark and Luke.

We only have letters that he wrote addressing certain specific questions and problems that arose among his devotees. By making a Gospel out of these letters, it is easy to misuse what was said - turning problem addressing and solving into 'doctrine'.

The very problems A.Paul addressed tell us what is false doctrine = a false gospel.

just as Peter warned

A.Peter says "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." (2 Peter 3:13-17)

It should be noted that A.Peter is specifically refering to the return of the Lord, not A.Paul's overall testimony.

I therefore look to Jesus for the Gospel and not to Paul's letters.

I'd be interested in how you look to Jesus for the Gospel as to my knowledge he didn't write one. However, we have the testimony of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and highlights of their testimony in A.Paul's letters.

Of course Paul's letters fit into the Gospel Jesus taught. But if we do the reverse, make our Gospel out of Paul's letters, then we find that much taught by Jesus does make sense or fit, so we have dilute it, adjust it, or even simply ignore it.

I can't deduce a reason for your presumptions. Would you give an example of how A.Paul's testimony conflicts with what Jesus taught.

Peace

[Vivian]

I had to cut this post in half, because it was too long!



Part 1

Hello Vivian,

Hi Paul!

It is good to hear from you.

If you are adventurous, there are eco-friendly/socio-friendly organisations that do guided treks within Asia where you travel, eat and live like the locals. Imo, the only way you get to "see" a country.

There is one trip I'd like to do some day - over a couple of months you go from Singapore to Mongolia. Last time I looked, they fly over Laos because it is too dangerous, other than that you see a lot of countries and country via local bus (no coaches), local train, local boats and foot. I did my trip across southern europe alone and unguided, something I needed to do at the time, but not the best idea in the world - it can be a very lonely road when you don't speak the lingo. However, it can also be very rewarding: all you have for company is your own thoughts and observations.

You are making me reconsider, because at this present moment, I cannot recall a single person who has taken a Nepal trip who recommends it!

Personally, given the tales I've heard from other travellers, I have no desire to go to Nepal. Especially, if the sole aim is a spiritual journey - you can have the same experience by staying in a monestary anywhere. If a healing journey is on order, then I recommend Brandon Bays, the Journey.
http://www.thejourneyusa.com/

Brandon has quite a story. And in reading through her website, it does sound as though she has found the secret storehouse of wisdom and power that exists within each of us. Elsewhere on Tweb, I have talked of the Spirit within us, or Christ in us, and am referring to the same.

From what I have discovered in this life, we all are in need of healing, and finding this within ourselves is essential if we are to walk a truly spiritual life - one that is dedicated to the healing and salvation of all, ourselves and all.

My youngest son died of leukemia a few years ago, and a month before that, my mother had died. A year or so after, one November, a friend of mine talked me into going to one of Brandon's weekend seminars with her, that was to be held here in Sydney the following February. In that January another of my sons died (committed suicide). As you might imagine, I was in great need of healing.

I cannot express the sadness that I feel for your suffering.

If you take nothing else away from this post, please take my sympathy and compassion.

I have been through several deaths recently - including my husband and my father this past summer, but cannot fathom the grief that is experienced with the suffering and loss of one’s own children.

I am so very sorry, Paul.

Basically what Brandon gives you is permission to cry for yourself, or more particularly, through deep breathing exercises etc, the ability - the release mechanism. She refers to it as the forgiving experience (whether it be forgiving yourself or someone else).

We in the west do not know how to breath. Before my husband passed away, I was in need of healing and looked to practices similar to what Brandon offers. And because I had gone through this healing process, this inner discovery journey, my husband's passing was not the devastating experience that such events often are.

Heading for Nepal:

While in Turkey I met a couple of doctors who were on holiday. They had just become engaged. He was chaperoned by his mother, and she by her father. His heritage was Indian Malaysian and hers Chinese Malaysian, which once would have been an unusual coupling. Having been born and educated in Australia, they identified themselves not with their heritage but as Australian (culture & attitude). They admitted that their families were not happy with their relationship on ethic grounds, but that was more-or-less resolved as their immediate families had a common ground - they were first of all Christian. I found a message in that.

Such a beautiful story.

Anyway, they fell in love in Nepal while doing voluntary work as doctors. They were not at all impressed by the people or place. Apparently, just trying to educate them about disease was a huge problem. The core premise of the local religion is fatalism = whatever happens in your life is the will of the gods and there is nothing one can do to change it. Imo, a very ignorant premise, encouraged by their religion and politicians to ensure subservience of the people.

Now you are really changing my mind on Nepal! My intent was a spiritually awakening experience for my children who are 19 and 12, but now I am thinking, as you have shared, that such a journey might be best taken alone. I had already talked to my son about sending him somewhere in the world on his own this summer and maybe I will focus on that and doing the same for my daughter when she is older.

This "there is nothing you can do to change" that you speak of , imo, feels very close to "you do not have to do anything to change" and I find both prevalent in western society. And these attitudes, imo, are rooted in the variances between the Gospel according to Jesus (or what is recorded as said by Jesus) and the Gospel attributed to Paul.

If you are going to Nepal you better be quick, what is so romantically portrayed to those of the baby boomer generation won't be there soon. Of course the mountains covered with snow should remain and maybe the odd tourist resort with their idealised representations of what they think the tourist wants. But the real country has the fastest rate of man made desertfication in the world - caused mainly from over population, deforestation and especially apathy.

Oh wow.

Maybe I better stay here and pray for them instead.

All the good news we hear in the west relates to less than 5% of the population. And the romanticism festered by the insulated experiences of pampered tourists - few people venture out to see the reality. As Dor Bahadur Bista, a respected Nepalese accademic suggests: the root cause of Nepal's problems is that the leaders and peasants evade responsibility for their own actions. Imo, a product of their contemplative religion = contemplation of self.
http://www.alanmacfarlane.com/FILES/Fatalism.htm

Eghads. What an informative article. Thank you. This is a good example of how true spiritual ideas become distorted - leading people to destruction. Again, very similar to the Gospel that is attributed to Paul.

Forgive me for being such a sceptic and a grumpy old man ;-).

If you will forgive me for being such, uh, a positive and hopeful old woman!

It is, well just (in fact very just in outcome), when I look at the world, I see that all the woes and worries - desertification, overpopulation, starvation, high mortality rates, wars, intolerance etc are the most rampant in regions where the local religion emphasises personal contemplative spirituality and not participation (and I include the religions of the Balkans/Greece and the middle east).

This world is a world of shadows, meaning there is a lot of spiritual darkness here - where even true ideas become distorted and destructive over the years.

And you are looking at the surface, at the masses. Throughout the world, underneath what is openly seen, exist small groupings every where still holding onto the light. And by light I mean the transformative, redeeming power of God, or His Word – the masculine divine Seed of God that awakens and transforms the potential already planted in the heart of all creation.

Quite similar to how the sunlight awakens and causes a seed to grow to maturity.

I do value personal contemplation. Imo, in a Christian perspective, the focus is not on self (as it is in the oriental religions), but contemplation of where one fits in the scheme of things and the wider community of man = ask not what God can do for you but what you can do to assist.

Yes, this is it! The shadows and darkness cause us to become self-focused. Compelled more by fear for self than love. [Funny, but I will have to reread all that you have shared, because I was under the impression that the Western religions are more self-focused than the Eastern. ]

But I do think you are right, the shadows have affected the whole world. But while we have a lot of darkness, there is also a movement afoot that is bringing more light, more Christ, into the world.

In someways I agree with you eg: man and woman were created in the image and likeness of God.

Imo, apart from the obvious (rationality, power to influence the creation etc) there is the intention of unity.

Here, I must differ. For Jesus tells us, the angels do not marry (and assuming the same moral laws apply in heaven as on earth, by implication, the angels don't procreate).

Imu, Jesus is saying something else - that instead of the angels existing in separate male or female bodies, they are both. Each angel carrying both feminine and masculine attributes. (And of course we are speaking of more than male/female in the physical sense.)

And this does not bar them from procreation; it simply means that procreation is different. The angels do not have to marry to be 'one flesh'. They do not have the longing to unite with another to be one.

They are one in and of themselves.

The angels thus are more like God than we who have separate bodies for male and for female.

I agree. Just watching the birds nesting, nurturing and teaching their young is insightful.

Indeed there is much to learn about God in observing nature.

I see it the opposite way around: when we are gifted with looks into the reality of the physical, our understanding of the spiritual blossoms.

I have found that it goes both ways.

An exercise in communication I once participated in required that I explain the beauty of a rose (as if) to a thalidomide victim who was blind, had no arms or legs and no sensation of taste or odour. Actually, a simple task when you remove yourself from the equation and concentrate on what the other person can experience, and adjust ones paradigm concerning beauty from a sensory experience to an emotional one.

Ha. Very insightful. This is what it is like for Jesus and for the prophets of God as they try to explain God and Heaven to those of us who are spiritually deaf and blind! They have to speak to what we have experienced.

Hence Jesus taught those new to the spiritual path in parables.

To me it is like the first time you fall in love. All types of previously unknown physical and emotional experiences occur - we involuntarily enter the realms of the unknown.

Oh exactly! When we fall in love with God, we will indeed enter into realms of the previously unknown!

It is interesting that in the OT sophia (wisdom) is feminine, while in the NT the equivalent, the Logos, is masculine.

Actually, if I might venture a bit here into the unknown...

Imu, Sophia (Wisdom) is the feminine of God, and (Understanding) is the masculine of God.

Father and Mother as expressed in the first two letters of the Tetragrammation, YHVH.

And then Logos is Christ the Son, the third letter of the Tetragrammation.

I don't see the father-mother as a duality of persons but as the common role of each person in the Trinity, each is father-mother as provider-nurturer in their various functions.

Yes. And no. At least according to Judaic tradition (and my own understanding!)

Yes in that in the Highest Heavens there is no differentiation between masculine/feminine, or Father/Mother/Son/(and daughter!). There is One God containing the POTENTIAL for the expression or manifestation of a myriad of attributes which have their root in the divine masculine and the feminine.

Or a better way of looking at is giving and receiving. In the Highest heavens - in PURE BLISS - exists the potential for giving and receiving, or the potential for love.

And then at the first level of creation (in the beginning), we have God giving to Godself. So suddenly we have two attributes of God or two Gods - the giving (masculine) attribute within God and the receiving (feminine) attribute.

God then expressing Godself as two distinct attributes or personages.

We thus have at the first level of creation Father God and Mother God or the Holy Spirit/Shekinah/Sophia. This is when God divided the light from the darkness (darkness referring to the Void or the Womb) and Light referring to the Force and Power of God. (Genesis 1:4-5)

Before this point, God was undivided. [Kind of like the angels!] After this point, God was divided.

And at the next level of creation we have the first fruit of this giving and receiving or God giving to Godself - the Only Begotten Son, Christ.

What about the daughters?

Good question! The daughter is the 4th letter of the Tetragrammation. The Bride. The next level of creation, which we are intimately involved in, as you know!

We, the Bride, are the what I shall be of the Holy Name of God. At least according to Jewish tradition and my own understanding.

I would put it this way: The Father, speaking for the three "My design for you, was that you would live in unity, as we do. However, each man (and woman) is inclined to introspection and therefore selfishness, and so each man's (and each woman's) experiece is of his (her) own making."

And yet, rarely do we find it so.

Indeed, what each man and woman is experiencing is of their own making, within the makings of ‘collective humanity’. Again the lack of this understanding in the spirituality of the masses reveals how truth has been distorted and the masses ending up thinking we don’t have to, or we can’t, change. That we are just victims of what is around us, or worse we are just victims of God.

I'm missing something here. Maybe you have omitted a thought. As it stands it seems you are infering that the father & son relationship in the Trinity is dysfunctional. But I'm assuming you mean that the earthly reality does not correspond to the intention of unity reflected in the Trinity.

Yes, that is what I meant. The shadows distort the Father-Son relationship in our world. And so when we look at how the father-son relationship actually functions, contemplate such things, we just might see how the relationship has actually manifested (with the influence of sin) while at the same time also seeing how it can be (the divine potential that lies at the heart of everything in this world).

I am what I am and what I shall be. We are the bride, the potential. What can be and what will be. Aren’t we promised that God’s Word does not return to God without accomplishing what was intended?

Wel_______l....Looking at history it has always been the collective mentality that has always set back progress = superstition or fixation on traditional ideas and/or preconceptions.

Yes! We have lost sight of the potential amidst all the clouds and shadows.

EG: "Throughout the Renaissance and the early development of modern science, astronomers refused to accept the existence of meteorites. The idea that stones could fall from space was regarded as superstitious and possibly heretical - surely God would not have created such an untidy universe?"
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...y-science.html

Indeed. This happens all the time. When ever we say Creation is this or God is this, and not that, whenever we limit God, we limit humanity becoming the anti-Christ - working against Christ to elevate his Bride to her full potential.

And yet our entire civilisation remains tied to the concept of enslaving persons. Of course these days the system has been sanitised and the slaves are now called employees and/or consumers, and they think they are freemen.

Good point. Which is why working as an employee is against my religion.

How so? The world seems more complicated now than it ever was when I was much younger.

Yes the world complicates things! And so our spiritual journey is about working through all the man-made complications to get back to the simplicity of God.

This is overcoming the beast.

I have a slightly different perspective. We grow in knowledge not by disgarding old ideas but questioning their relevence. If they are still true and relevent then we retain them. We grow as a person by releasing the self. That is: we change from the usual "what is in it for me mentality" to, "even if I get nothing in return how can I make someone else's life better?"

Several excellent thoughts here.

We grow in knowledge not by disgarding old ideas but questioning their relevence. If they are still true and relevent then we retain them.

I say something similar. Is it beneficial?

What is God trying to do? What is his intent in creation and is this idea, doctrine, belief, action working towards that intent (then being of Christ) or working against that intent (being of anti-Christ)?

And what I have found is that it isn’t that this doctrine or idea is right and that one wrong, it is that they are incomplete. When we grow spiritually, we will begin to see how everything fits together, how every idea or thought of man comes from something in God.

We will see the whole that all the pieces together make. What use to be contradictions become harmonies, and what use to be mutual exclusive find unity.

And this whole is very simple. We complicate things by breaking God up into pieces and saying God is this and not that.

We grow as a person by releasing the self. That is: we change from the usual "what is in it for me mentality" to, "even if I get nothing in return how can I make someone else's life better?"



Indeed, and I have found that this begins to happen - our hearts actually begin changing, as we overcome the beast.

I think God is very fundemental = "serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function" ;-)

What I presume you mean is that he is anti-fundementalism = strong adherence to any set of opinions devised by man.

Yes. Exactly. I define fundamentalism as believing that this rigid idea or these rigid thoughts about God are alone God. [Imo, this is the letter of the law - solid, rigid, fixed, dead. The spirit of the law is living, fluid, moving with many depths.] If our knowledge of God does not encompass every other idea about God in existence, our awareness is in need of expansion. At least in my own journey.

Jesus in his conversations with the religious leaders of his time demonstrates a high degree of intolerance of such types.

Indeed. It seems to be that we have quite a few modern day Pharisees!

I don't recall. Though I certainly have inquired about them. And recently I may have parroted Rabbinic opinion on the eight names of the Messiah in Isaiah.

I ask because I have studied various Judaic traditions and in finding much resonance in them, use their terminology often to explain my understanding. And you at times use the same terminology!

Imu, it is usually depicted by the Rabbis as corresponding to God expressing his wrath or manifesting his power and strength. As at Exodos 20:18 it coincides with the lightning, smoking mountain and the trumpets it is obvious that it is component of a physical phenomena and not a metaphor.

You make it sound as though God at times is like a mad daddy! Screaming and banging his fist on the table!

Imu, God’s wrath is not an expression of God’s feelings, but a tool for transforming his creation into the Bride, part of the processing to bring out the potential within creation.

And it is my opinion that the experiences had at the foot of Mt Sinai were only scary to Israel because they were not ready yet, indicating that mankind was not ready yet, for that kind of revelation of God. Big Daddy is not scary except to the impure of heart – those still in need of purification, transformation, overcoming of the beast, etc.

And what they experienced, imu, was not merely in the physical, but a multidimensional experience.

A simple way of looking at is that God’s Light shone brightly within them, and around them through Moses, to elevate their inner vision into the heavens, but instead of it being a joyful experience, it was horrifying, again because their hearts were impure.

Imo, having eyes that see and ears that hear is referring to spiritual vision and hearing, or the ability to perceive the kingdom – heavenly spheres and beings.

"Now when all the people saw the thunder and the flashes of lightning and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled, and they stood far off" (ESV)

I don't see the connection. Remember, despite their direct experience of God, the Israelites (even Moses) repeatedly disobeyed - the main reason they travelled in the desert for forty years - the original generation never saw the promised land.

I have learned that Hebrew is a sacred multidimensional language – referring to the literal and to the spiritual, and to depths of the spiritual. And so mountain in Hebrew has more than a physical meaning, it also has a spiritual meaning - referring to an ascent in consciousness - ascending the consciousness mountain or seeing into the heavenly spheres. And so I take these words in Exodus, as do many of the Judaic traditions I have studied, as referring to a spiritual experience, a multidimensional experience.

The experience had by the children of Israel, then, imo, is not simply history, but His Story, the story that He continually plays out in the lives of all his children. Bringing out the potential within them.

Imu, it is not the physical mountain before them that was important, but the spiritual mountain within each of them.

The Seed is planted and He has gotta get is growing!

And, imu, we all will eventually walk the same path as they. A path that was also walked by Jesus.

Maybe not in this life, maybe in the life to come.

Well, as their whole experience was surreal, and they kept lapsing, I guess, even though they were fearful at the time, ultimately, they were unconvinced by the theatrics (bit like Pharoah and his priests with the plagues).

Imu, as shared, the theatrics experienced by the children of Israel did not occur solely in the physical realm. Which certainly was even more frightening to those whose hearts are not ready to see God.

[Vivian]

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[apostoli]

Hello Vivian,
Sorry for the delay in replying.

I had to cut this post in half, because it was too long!

I try not to be so long winded this time . I'll restrict my reply so that our conversation can flow better.

You are making me reconsider, because at this present moment, I cannot recall a single person who has taken a Nepal trip who recommends it!

Ironically, the other day, in the post, I received notice of an excursion to Nepal for seniors. Even if I was interested the pricing is definitely beyond my budget!

Now you are really changing my mind on Nepal! My intent was a spiritually awakening experience for my children who are 19 and 12, but now I am thinking, as you have shared, that such a journey might be best taken alone. I had already talked to my son about sending him somewhere in the world on his own this summer and maybe I will focus on that and doing the same for my daughter when she is older.

In my experience (4 boys) men are more experience driven and less intuitive than women. My trek across southern europe was motivated by a promise I'd made to my youngest son before he died. So here you had this 50yo attempting to live as if still 20yo. A definite challenge for me - someone for whom most things had came easily. I think this was my son's intention - to get me outside of my comfort zone. So my suggestion is if you send your son off into the world do so, in such a way, as to challenge his comfort zone.

Brandon has quite a story...

Brandon's philosophy is supposedly not religious. She claims to have approval, to advocate her ideas, even in Muslim countries.

I cannot express the sadness that I feel for your suffering. If you take nothing else away from this post, please take my sympathy and compassion. I have been through several deaths recently - including my husband and my father this past summer, but cannot fathom the grief that is experienced with the suffering and loss of one’s own children. I am so very sorry, Paul.

Thankyou for your thoughts, and I extend mine towards you.

For me, my loses although regretable, weren't sad occasions. My belief in the resurrection sustains me. My sons' mother was once a religious fanatic (literally) and unfortunately has lost all faith, and to this day, is not in good emotional shape. This causes me greater sadness.

I still talk and think of my four sons as if they surround me on a daily basis (my two surviving sons are now married and live many hours away - one in central Australia).

We in the west do not know how to breath. Before my husband passed away, I was in need of healing and looked to practices similar to what Brandon offers. And because I had gone through this healing process, this inner discovery journey, my husband's passing was not the devastating experience that such events often are.

Years ago I attended AADA (acting school) and when doing voice training we were fore-warned of a side effect of deep breathe relaxation = all those things from life that you had hidden away are trapped inside you - the ab muscles - relax those and utilise them to push upwards, and your concealed memories will come forward. It is upto you to handle them, but let them come forward. Brandon's approach gave me the tool to handle them. Her Journey program is about discovery. The hurt one thinks they are feeling, isn't necessarily the actual problem. For instance: the feelings arising from the death of a loved one, maybe be rooted in some sense of abandonment (or rejection) we experienced at another time.

This "there is nothing you can do to change" that you speak of , imo, feels very close to "you do not have to do anything to change" and I find both prevalent in western society. And these attitudes, imo, are rooted in the variances between the Gospel according to Jesus (or what is recorded as said by Jesus) and the Gospel attributed to Paul.

I suspect this is your experience of a particular American viewpoint as expressed by certain evangelical networks. It is not my experience. Then again I was born RCC and educated by a teaching order that sponsored missionary activity in greater Oceania.

I find A.Paul teaching that one is led to change but once changed, perseverance is required. The idea of "once saved always saved" is via my religious education totally foreign to me.

Eghads. What an informative article [on the reality of Nepal]. Thank you. This is a good example of how true spiritual ideas become distorted - leading people to destruction. Again, very similar to the Gospel that is attributed to Paul.

There is no comparison to the gospel of A.Paul,. However, there is comparison to the distortions of A.Paul that some evangelical groups fester.

Forgive me for being such a sceptic and a grumpy old man ;-).

If you will forgive me for being such, uh, a positive and hopeful old woman!

No forgiveness neccesary. I maybe grumpy and sceptical about the world but I am posively hopeful for all ;-)

This world is a world of shadows, meaning there is a lot of spiritual darkness here - where even true ideas become distorted and destructive over the years.

Imo, it is instrospection that causes all the woes and leads to spiritual darkness. for instance, on face value Jainism seems to have a lot going for it but...

And you are looking at the surface, at the masses. Throughout the world, underneath what is openly seen, exist small groupings every where still holding onto the light. And by light I mean the transformative, redeeming power of God, or His Word – the masculine divine Seed of God that awakens and transforms the potential already planted in the heart of all creation.

Quite similar to how the sunlight awakens and causes a seed to grow to maturity.

An idea compatible with A.Paul's view, as i understand him.

Funny, but I will have to reread all that you have shared, because I was under the impression that the Western religions are more self-focused than the Eastern.

So the propagandists will have us believe. But it hasn't been my experience from living in an openly multi-cultural society. Oz may be perculiar in this regard, diversity of culture has been Government policy for the last 30 years - albeit in our Howard (your Bush) years it was challenged by nationalism - which is now causing problems with our emerging youth.

Many of my school friends drifted off into various Eastern religions and ended up joining communes etc. I know of few who are now fully functional. Some may as well be dead (drug induced psychosis).

It seems one really needs to be born into these religions to survive them. Most real Budhists I've known, don't practice Budhism but do practice the basic concepts which amount to basic humanity.

It is interesting that in the OT sophia (wisdom) is feminine, while in the NT the equivalent, the Logos, is masculine.

Actually, if I might venture a bit here into the unknown...Imu, Sophia (Wisdom) is the feminine of God, and (Understanding) is the masculine of God. Father and Mother as expressed in the first two letters of the Tetragrammation, YHVH. And then Logos is Christ the Son, the third letter of the Tetragrammation.

I'm not big on kabbalah teaching.

You have made comments before I believe about Jewish traditional understandings?

I don't recall. Though I certainly have inquired about them. And recently I may have parroted Rabbinic opinion on the eight names of the Messiah in Isaiah.

I ask because I have studied various Judaic traditions and in finding much resonance in them, use their terminology often to explain my understanding. And you at times use the same terminology!

Jesus and most of the bible writers were Jewish, so as they are my foundation, I assume I've adopted their terminology :-}

Imu, it is usually depicted by the Rabbis as corresponding to God expressing his wrath or manifesting his power and strength. As at Exodos 20:18 it coincides with the lightning, smoking mountain and the trumpets it is obvious that it is component of a physical phenomena and not a metaphor.

You make it sound as though God at times is like a mad daddy! Screaming and banging his fist on the table!

You do get that impression from the OT writers. YHWH is even said to regret some of his actions. But the accounts are from the viewpoint of man not God. As you said "Big Daddy is not scary except to the impure of heart."

Imo, having eyes that see and ears that hear is referring to spiritual vision and hearing, or the ability to perceive the kingdom – heavenly spheres and beings.

I think it refers to both spiritual and physical. All of Proverbs 20 is worth reading. The exact teaching is...

"The LORD despises double standards of every kind. Even children are known by the way they act, whether their conduct is pure and right. Ears to hear and eyes to see--both are gifts from the LORD. If you love sleep, you will end in poverty. Keep your eyes open, and there will be plenty to eat! The buyer haggles over the price, saying, "It's worthless," then brags about getting a bargain! Wise speech is rarer and more valuable than gold and rubies." (NLT)

Imu, the Gospel that Jesus taught is the same one that John the Baptist taught – repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

That is partially true. However, Jesus went further identifying himself as the king, the Judge and the very bread of life.

And then Jesus presents us with a whole myriad of instructions, which I don’t think need to be listed here...Do not love the world or anything in it.

I'm not aware of Jesus making such a blanket statement. It is true that he taught along the lines that you shouldn't love those things in the world that go against the will of his Father.

Imu, Jesus is speaking to the potential in humanity. He is not calling us to be and do something that is impossible! He is speaking to the potential within all of us, found within that storehouse of wisdom.

I can go along with that.

9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

However, this is not the Gospel attributed to Paul which focuses on atonement and forgiveness.

You've confused me. First you cite Ephesians 1, which is attributed to A.Paul then you say this is not his Gospel (?)

Imu, Jesus preached and emphasised atonement and forgiveness. "You must be born again...If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not..." (John 3)

These are indeed important – part of the tools or help that God has for our healing/transformation, like wrath. In the Gospel according to Jesus they are the beginning of working out our salvation. But in the Gospel attributed to Paul, they are most often seen as the end – God has atoned us, forgiven us, therefore we do not have to change – for certainly we could not change any way!

One of us is misreading A.Paul. Imu, he is addressing those who claim to have already "changed". His admonishment is perseverance eg: 1 Cor 10:11-13; Rom 5:1-5.

Imo, the Gospel according the Jesus and John the Baptist is a gospel of responsibility, and the Gospel attributed to Paul is a gospel of irresponsibility, for the mark or goal, and faith and hope in achieving that mark or goal, has been lost.

?

Peace

[Vivian]

Hello Vivian,
Sorry for the delay in replying.

Hi Paul!

I try not to be so long winded this time . I'll restrict my reply so that our conversation can flow better.

Good plan. And I will turn my focus to a couple if issues you raised that feel worthy of a dialogue.

In my experience (4 boys) men are more experience driven and less intuitive than women. My trek across southern europe was motivated by a promise I'd made to my youngest son before he died. So here you had this 50yo attempting to live as if still 20yo. A definite challenge for me - someone for whom most things had came easily. I think this was my son's intention - to get me outside of my comfort zone. So my suggestion is if you send your son off into the world do so, in such a way, as to challenge his comfort zone.

Good insights Paul.

And I need to take care not to force things. True spirituality has be spontaneous and natural.


I do have to share though that my son's comfort zone was challenged when I sent him off to college in the fall!

Brandon's philosophy is supposedly not religious. She claims to have approval, to advocate her ideas, even in Muslim countries.

Perhaps not religious - because it does not seem to match what is taught at church? But from what I have read, it is spiritual, imo.

Spirituality is all about healing, at least in my understanding. When Jesus said, be perfect, a better translation, imo, is be whole, complete. In other words, Jesus commands us to find healing!

I always thought this verse pointed to our complete healing...

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.




We certainly are damaged and really have no idea what we will be like when we are fully healed or perfected! Just like we now in our damaged state have no idea what God is like!

I still talk and think of my four sons as if they surround me on a daily basis (my two surviving sons are now married and live many hours away - one in central Australia).

It is amazing, isn't it, how we can turn our minds and hearts towards someone, and it is as though they are right there with us?

Years ago I attended AADA (acting school) and when doing voice training we were fore-warned of a side effect of deep breathe relaxation = all those things from life that you had hidden away are trapped inside you - the ab muscles - relax those and utilise them to push upwards, and your concealed memories will come forward.

Just imagine if we breathed properly from the get go! Imagine how different we would all be if we had been taught early on how to breath and process - being equipped to respond to this world in a fully beneficial manner.

It is upto you to handle them, but let them come forward. Brandon's approach gave me the tool to handle them. Her Journey program is about discovery. The hurt one thinks they are feeling, isn't necessarily the actual problem. For instance: the feelings arising from the death of a loved one, maybe be rooted in some sense of abandonment (or rejection) we experienced at another time.

Sounds like personal responsibility to me. To whom much is given much is required has been the motto of my spiritual journey!

This that you describe is the same sort of healing process that I went through. First looking for the pain in one's current relations, and then looking for patterns that have repeated them selves through out our lives, and then going back to our earliest memories, looking for events that we as immature egos misinterpreted creating a false image in our subconscious - an idea that is not rooted in reality that has been controlling our lives!

For me it was concluding at a very early age that I had been abandoned in this world by God, not being worthy of anything better! And so I came to see that I had spent my whole life trying to prove to God that I was worthy, and whenever anything happened that challenged my worthiness or anyone encountered who made me feel inferior in some way, I reacted from the buried pain.

I suspect this is your experience of a particular American viewpoint as expressed by certain evangelical networks. It is not my experience. Then again I was born RCC and educated by a teaching order that sponsored missionary activity in greater Oceania.

Ha! Yes, indeed. I am speaking of fundamental Protestant Christianity.

This year, my daughter will be graduating from her Christian elementary school, moving on to a Catholic middle school and high school, where a more accurate picture of Paul's Gospel will be taught, imo. This school is well known and run by the Sisters of Notre Dame. Perhaps you are familiar with them?

I find A.Paul teaching that one is led to change but once changed, perseverance is required. The idea of "once saved always saved" is via my religious education totally foreign to me.

There is no comparison to the gospel of A.Paul,. However, there is comparison to the distortions of A.Paul that some evangelical groups fester.

Yes. This is what I meant - the evangelical interpretation of Paul's teachings, which I feel give an incorrect impression of what God expects from us, and not what I think Paul is saying.

For me, now that I have broken free from the evangelical yoke, it is quite obvious that Paul taught personal responsibility, just as Jesus did.

Imo, it is instrospection that causes all the woes and leads to spiritual darkness. for instance, on face value Jainism seems to have a lot going for it but...

Could we talk about this a bit? Because I do not disagree with you, but I do not agree either.

First I am not sure what you mean by introspection? Another word I use for introspection is contemplation. [Introspection: Contemplation of one's own thoughts, feelings, and sensations; self-examination.]

If our introspection takes us merely into our own thought and feelings and sensations, I am not sure what the danger is and how that can be called Jainism (not that that is bad!)?

However, if our introspection takes us beyond ourselves, opening up our awarness to the spiritual realms, then yes, I agree with you. There is potential danger.

Imu, the spiritual realms (the Kingdom) is an admixture of light and darkness and certainly any who venture there without right understanding and discernment are vulnerable to encountering and attracting all sorts of dark forces, just as we would if we ventured out into Central Park after dark! The immediate spiritual realms, imu, are no different than the physical - except the beings residing there are not clothed in bodies of matter or earthly dust, so we must use discernment - just as we would while say posting on a forum - as we carry our introspection/meditation to a deeper level.

In other words, as I have come to learn, meditative introspection can be very dangerous if pursued on one's own, -for those whose hearts are impure! That is why purification, healing, is essential before we look beyond our surface consciousness. Without healing, I agree that the personality will attract woes and spiritual darkness.

And so for the layman, I would advise to steer clear of meditation. But not the contemplation sort of introspection, for this is our major tool for healing, as I have experienced! It is through our contemplation that the Holy Spirit can guide us towards personal healing.

Doesn't Brandon teach contemplation, either alone or through dialoging with a partner?

So the propagandists will have us believe. But it hasn't been my experience from living in an openly multi-cultural society. Oz may be perculiar in this regard, diversity of culture has been Government policy for the last 30 years - albeit in our Howard (your Bush) years it was challenged by nationalism - which is now causing problems with our emerging youth.

Many of my school friends drifted off into various Eastern religions and ended up joining communes etc. I know of few who are now fully functional. Some may as well be dead (drug induced psychosis).

It seems one really needs to be born into these religions to survive them. Most real Budhists I've known, don't practice Budhism but do practice the basic concepts which amount to basic humanity.

Wow.

Most of my friends are either now functioning alcoholics or on Paxil or some other antidepressant! ''

No doubt we have seen a lot of suffering in our world - whether we remain in mainstream life and end up having to self medicate, or try an alternative path and end up having to self medicate!

It seems to me that no matter where we look, we see a world in need of healing. I offer and of course this is my opinion, that it is not the path chosen that led to failure, but the absence of healing on that path.

And as we shared, westerners are not taught the essentials of the true spiritual path – like proper breathing – and often end up getting themselves into a mess trying to follow one of the alternative paths.

But there are a lot of westerners who do succeed. If they first begin with the healing process.

This brings me to a key opinion of mine – most people do not work out their salvation in this life. So we will see a lot of failure.

I'm not big on kabbalah teaching.

Ah. I think a lot of what I share is found in the Kaballah. But my first encounter of these ideas was not with Kaballah, but in vision/revelation and in other traditions.

Not that that will make them more appealing to you!

Jesus and most of the bible writers were Jewish, so as they are my foundation, I assume I've adopted their terminology :-}

Indeed! If we are going to talk about Jesus in depth, we cannot without considering the religious tradition into which he was born!

You do get that impression from the OT writers. YHWH is even said to regret some of his actions. But the accounts are from the viewpoint of man not God. As you said "Big Daddy is not scary except to the impure of heart."

There is a key to understanding here. How we perceive God has very much to do with the state of our heart. For some God is simply Love, for others he is wrath and judgment, the mad daddy!

What it boils down to, imu, is that what we see in God is a reflection of ourselves. Back to that healing verse - when we are fully healed…when God is revealed, we will be like Christ, for we will see Him as He is.

I think it refers to both spiritual and physical. All of Proverbs 20 is worth reading. The exact teaching is...

"The LORD despises double standards of every kind. Even children are known by the way they act, whether their conduct is pure and right. Ears to hear and eyes to see--both are gifts from the LORD. If you love sleep, you will end in poverty. Keep your eyes open, and there will be plenty to eat! The buyer haggles over the price, saying, "It's worthless," then brags about getting a bargain! Wise speech is rarer and more valuable than gold and rubies." (NLT)

I actually see something different in these verses (certainly a reflection of me, where I am presently, what I see in myself), which I find a bit more clear with a different translation…



(NKJV) 12 The hearing ear and the seeing eye,
The LORD has made them both.
13 Do not love sleep, lest you come to poverty;
Open your eyes, and you will be satisfied with bread.




Imu, what God makes is our spiritual seeing and hearing – which he gifts to us as we follow Christ. And sleep is referring to spiritual sleep – don’t sleep during your life, but be awake – seeking and knocking. The poverty spoken of then is spiritual poverty. But when we open our spiritual eyes we will see and then can receive and be satisfied with manna – spiritual bread, the bread that is the body of Christ – our true food and nourishment.

That is partially true. However, Jesus went further identifying himself as the king, the Judge and the very bread of life.

Indeed! But it takes spiritual eyes to see and receive this bread.

I'm not aware of Jesus making such a blanket statement. It is true that he taught along the lines that you shouldn't love those things in the world that go against the will of his Father.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

John 12:25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

And then John said this…

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

And so I disagree with you, but I also agree. This is a very tricky issue, imu, one that requires much inner learning, healing, self awareness.

Paul sums it up like this…

Galatians 5:24
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The only way that one can come to understand these verses is by introspection - by looking within and seeing what a desire is, seeing what happens when we desire the world or the things of the world, to gain all for ourselves, to have all for ourselves.

There is a big difference between ego grasping, and wanting to take possession and control of something or someone for oneself – which is typically out of fear and a feeling of lack and is the way of desire for the fallen flesh, and desiring for the benefit of all - enjoying what is (ultimately enjoying God) without having to own it, and desiring the same pleasure and benefit for all.

But I don't see how this difference can be seen without introspection! So, imu, Jesus has actually commanded us to engage in introspection!

You've confused me. First you cite Ephesians 1, which is attributed to A.Paul then you say this is not his Gospel (?)

I was speaking of the Gospel attributed to Paul by the evangelical Christians, who ignore or explain away such verses as the one in Ephesians.

Imu, Jesus preached and emphasised atonement and forgiveness. "You must be born again...If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not..." (John 3)

This is an excellent example of first holding to the 'gospel attributed to Paul', and then going back and trying to find it in the words of Jesus. In John 3, Jesus is talking not about a belief in him as a historical figure, but a belief or trust in him, that is strong enough to cause us to come to His Light to have our evil deeds revealed. Trusting Christ, so that we will follow him to our healing (this is related to introspection in the presence of Christ’s Light).

One of us is misreading A.Paul. Imu, he is addressing those who claim to have already "changed". His admonishment is perseverance eg: 1 Cor 10:11-13; Rom 5:1-5.

?

Peace

I was speaking again of the gospel attributed to Paul, not the gospel that I read in Paul myself.


I ask you these questions since you have gone through a healing process and wonder if such healing made you more available to seek God? More available to receive from God, able to see God more clearly?


And how introspection fits into all this? How you healed without it?


Perhaps one way that I differ is believing, except with a rapture (individual or collective as Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 15) that the change is a gradual one, in accordance to our level of faith and perseverance. (Even with a rapture, some level of perfecting must have already occurred.)

This is how our belief saves us – because of our belief and faith we will do as Christ instructs, walking as he guides, working out our salvation. The greater our faith, the greater our obedience and the more that Grace can work in us, transforming us.

If we do not have faith in Christ, then we will not go to him so that we might be healed and made perfect.

Unfortunately this has all been lost in arguments such as works versus no works.

The point is, imu, that an intellectual assent will not save us. The faith necessary for salvation is the faith that leads to our obedience so that we might become savable. But unfortunately this verity is lost in the faith challenged - evangelical gospel that teaches that Jesus cannot make us perfect so he was perfect for us.


And I offer that in my understanding, all healing that we go through is by Grace and has a spiritual purpose behind it and wondered how these beliefs fit with your own experiences of healing?



Shalom.


Viv

[apostoli]

Hi Viv,

And I offer that in my understanding, all healing that we go through is by Grace and has a spiritual purpose behind it and wondered how these beliefs fit with your own experiences of healing?

I've been wanting to answer this question all week but needed to think on it. I've been unwell so have retreated into my accademic zone But to answer you, I want to talk from my contemplative zone. Hopefully I will get some peace over the weekend and get back to you with clearer thoughts on my experience than I presently have.

Peace

[LambofElohim]

Greetings,

Contemplate: Sit and think, ponder upon possibilities, decide, imagine and reason.

I tell you this if you sit there thinking about pondering upon possibilities trying to decide by imagining through reasons about "God"; you are not becoming knowledgeable about "God" nor "Jesus Christ".

These things are from the light that is darkness: Self exploration, awareness, spirituality and enlightenment.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

[Vivian]

Greetings,

Contemplate: Sit and think, ponder upon possibilities, decide, imagine and reason.

I tell you this if you sit there thinking about pondering upon possibilities trying to decide by imagining through reasons about "God"; you are not becoming knowledgeable about "God" nor "Jesus Christ".

These things are from the light that is darkness: Self exploration, awareness, spirituality and enlightenment.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

Indeed Reverend Carlton. Becoming aware of Self goes hand in hand with becoming aware of the only true God.

Thank you for sharing.


Viv

[LambofElohim]

Greetings,

Vivian, I think you misunderstood me. I said that being aware of oneself does NOT make them aware or knowledgeable of "God". I more or less said that self awareness is from Lucifer the light that is darkness. You may want to read that again.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

[Vivian]

Greetings,

Vivian, I think you misunderstood me. I said that being aware of oneself does NOT make them aware or knowledgeable of "God". I more or less said that self awareness is from Lucifer the light that is darkness. You may want to read that again.

The Brother of the Jesus Christ that the only true God hast sent
Reverend Carlton

Oops my bad, or rather my hope for the positive!

I did read your reply over and over and was not quite sure which way you were going. And so I decided to think positive!

Your writing sometimes, at least for me, is difficult to follow.

And I offer that are own inner impurities will distort the messages and experiences we receive from God. So the most important task that we undertake is our own purification.

We have to look within ourselves, to see both the old man and the New Man, of which Paul speaks. If we do not then the messages we receive from God will be clothed in the distortions of our old man.

And in love, I offer that at least here on Tweb, you are not sharing what you received from God in a way that might beneficial for the Kingdom. I can feel the old man distortions.

Shalom.


Viv