Is the Soul Immortal?

[apostoli]

Hi again xcav8tor

I had to split my reply to your post. Please only reply to whatever in either of my posts you think imperitave, or maybe raise a new thread for some of the side discussions that we seem to have initiated

As with many discussions, ours has broadened, and we are introducing many topics, that though related, might be better discussed in other threads but for now...

A.Paul makes no mention of a "a rebuilt Jewish temple". He simply says "so that he sets himself up in God's temple". When A.Paul wrote the temple hadn't been destroyed so he wouldn't have considered the temple as needing to be rebuilt. In any case a fellow from Nazareth had already destroyed the temple and rebuilt it.

Jesus spoke of the desecration of a Jewish temple spoken of by Daniel (by the Coming Prince of Rome - see Dan. 9:26-27 NASB) that would immediately precede His Second Coming (Mat. 24:15, 21, 29, 30) while Paul speaks of a desecration of a Jewish temple (that would coincide with "the Day of the Lord" - 2 Thes 2:2-4 NASB) by one who would be personally destroyed at Christ's Coming (1 Thes. 2:8 NASB). Since the temple of Jesus' day was destroyed in 70 A.D. and there has to be one for the Antichrist to defile prior to Christ's arrival, a THIRD rebuilt Jewish temple would seem to be inevitable. They already have the blueprints, most of the temple artifacts, and a school teaching Aaron's descendants about Mosaic sacrifice. Could all be coincidence, but I don't think so.

As far as I am aware there is no mention of a 3rd temple in the NT other than Christ himself and we in him.

Imu, Matthew is referring to the destruction of the 2nd temple (which the 1st christians took heed of and fled to Endessa). Vs30 refers to the "sign of the Son of man in heaven" the coming is that which is to follow = the expectation, not necessarily an immediate event. Imu, a problem the apostles and the Church has always had is answering the question "when" and hosing down enthusiasts without putting out the fire

I haven't interested myself in studying preterism and its variants (in fact before I joined Tweb I hadn't encountered the term/s). There is a history that demonstrates partial fulfillment of prophesy, leaving us with an expectation of completion. Our understanding of fulfilled prophesy is in hindsight. The various understandings of unfulfilled prophesy are yet to be proved. Thus I'm on the look out for a universal attitude of godlessness as the sign, rather than a godless person. Everyone could suddenly become Buddhists and have the same result as predicted (Buddhists themselves have conflict in the actuality of God).

In anycase, here is my reasoning on revelation...

I think we can agree that death, hades and those not found in the book of life are generalities. I hold that so is the Beast1 and the false prophet. The dragon=the rebeller=the deceiver I suspect is also. All refer to organisations (as does the harlot) of common thought/practice. Only Beast2 is depicted as a person.

What became of the fallen angels that resided in Tartarus? Are these the locusts of Rev 9? They seem to have survived the earthly battles but are made use of by God to torment all mankind. But nothing is said of their fate, unless we consider them attached to the Dragon.

In Rev 12 we learn of the birth of a child, which instigates a great battle in heaven, then Satan & his angels are banished to the earth, having been defeated by the blood of the lamb (vs11). Then the woman (the Church) hides in the earth, while being persued by the Dragon=Satan. Imo, if the woman is symbolic of the Godly, the Dragon is symbolic of the ungodly. Both are organisational.

In Rev 13 we have the Beast1 appearing, and he is described as being a copy of the Dragon (cp. Rev 12:3 with 13:1). People come to worship the Dragon through the Beast1 (vs13:4). This beast is depicted as an idol which is given mouth through a second beast that arises (vs 13:5,11). The second beast (a person) then causes an image of the Beast1 (vs13:14), this image is given life but would be slain (vs13:15). In verse 16:13 we are introduced to the false prophet, which I assume is the image of the Beast2 spoken about in chapter 13.

At Rev 16:13-14, out of the mouths of the Dragon, Beast1/2 and the Prophet come the three spirits. It is these spirits that do the signs etc. It should also be noted that we don't have an accounting of the Great Harlot as being thrown into the lake of fire. However, note vs16:15-16 "The waters you saw (vs1), where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the harlot. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire." So she is consumed by them and presumable through them is in the lake of fire. Rev 18:8 "Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her." She is made to be no more.

Come to think of it in chapter 17, Beast1, the "beast with seven heads and ten horns" is called "who was and is not and is to come". Which indicates to me, he becomes no more but we are not told its fate. Though later as it is an image of the Dragon, which is Satan, which Beast2 is an image of, and the image of it the false prophet/s, I imagine that organisationally Beast1 with satan and the harlot are thrown into the lake as the great deceivers and rebellers.

Rev 19:20-21, the Beast2 & the image of it (the false Prophet/s) are thrown alive in the lake, while the mutitudes that followed them are simply killed and their bodies devoured (annihilated). vs 20:2 the Dragon is thrown into the abyss, making Beast1 powerless (cp. Rev 13:2). At this stage for all intents and purposes the Beast2, Prophet, Harlot and those that were loyal to them cease to exist. The Dragon and Beast1 continues to exist but are powerless. Then we have the first resurrection, that of the martyrs (20:4-5). After a 1000yrs the Dragon is set free (vs7), which would reimpower Beast1, and many follow him but are devoured by fire from heaven when they lay seige to the remaining faithful. Satan is thrown into the lake. As he no longer has any influence over death & hades: the sea gives up its dead, then death & hades gives up its dead. Then death & hades are thrown into the lake (the sea isn't mentioned, though I consider it included in death as a general term. Which as a general term simply makes hades the abode of the dead), then judgement comes, then those not in the book of life are thrown into the lake.

Two things remain puzzling:

1. if the death of the Harlot by fire isn't annihilation, obliteration, a complete cessation of existence, what is it?
2. if the diabolos does not refer to both Satan, the fallen angels & Beast1, what was the fate of Beast1, what was the fate of the fallen angels?

This is only a quick synopsis of the teaching in revelation, that may highlight what, imo, are the defects in the American evangelical view.

I think A.Paul is being topical in his letter. Historically we know that several twit Roman rulers made himself "God', and even made attempts to defile the temple in Jerusalem (instigating revolts) - was Nero in power at the time? As I recall Caligula insisted he was God and demanded the Jews put a statue of him in the temple at Jerusalem.

Fine, but did they rule during a time of unprecedented tribulation, never to be equaled again - immediately followed by Christ's return in glory?

In a way yes! Historically, in this period the persecutions were the greatest ever experienced by Christians (historically, later persecutions were spasmodic and regional). And, historically Rome began to fall into decline. The temple had been destroyed (ungodliness had entered the world). And historically, apostacy within the church was growing. By the time of the Revelation (approx 96CE), all the signs were there for the coming of the Lord, but he had not been seen coming in the clouds. Which isn't a problem unless we take too literally the timings given to us in prophesy. As A.Paul says the Lord wants all saved, so he does things when the time is right (or something like that). He will come and the faithful servant remains constantly on watch for his presence.

Ezekiel doesn't make sense unless understood in the context of the after life. Though in reality both types die, only those forgiven live. It cannot refer to a standard court, as YHWH says He is just but Israel isn't...For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth"

Sorry. I just don't see it. I see nothing more here than God responding to their slander that God was unjustly punishing their generation for the sins of their fathers, and God was correcting their error by saying they were being punished for their own sin and explaining the methodology of His rules of accountability - IN THIS LIFE. We'll have to agree to disagree.

OK. Though realise you are siding with the Jews who deny the resurrection of the dead (or an afterlife, or both), and interpret Isaiah the same way way as you do with Ezekiel (in the case of Isaiah, they demonstrate that the prophesies belong to that age, and the rising as the reawaking of Israel = Jesus was neither the Christ nor was he resurrected - a prophet maybe, resusitated maybe).

If I recall correctly the pro-resurrection camp argues: In Ezekiel the sins of the father are only counted the sins of the son if the son imitates the father. Thats very clear in Ezekiel. Imu, this is the argument used to defeat the argument you presented. Plus if the faithful righteous, the righteous become unrighteous, and the persisting unrighteous, all experience the same fate in life, in a seige all hunger and thirst, and life for all ends in death. Where is God's justice? the answer: In the resurrection of the righteous!

That the wicked would be perpetually punished, via a perpetual process of punishment. There is only only penalty for sin that God prescribes, and that is death - cessation of existence. However, man requires eye for an eye, tooth for tooth. As YHWH puts it "[they] say 'The way of YHWH is not just'...Is it not your ways that are not just?" (Ezek 18:25,29).

As I understood it, God's law put a LIMIT on retaliation - an eye for an eye (no more), tooth for tooth (and no more). That's why Jesus advised us to follow a better way and turn the other cheek, not requiring even what would be considered "our rights" under the law.

You claim that, "There is only only penalty for sin that God prescribes, and that is death - cessation of existence," but if this is so, then Christ's payment for our sin would have required Jesus' annihilation, would it not? Did Jesus ever "cease to exist"? Could Jesus, being God, ever "cease to exist"?

As son of man why not! As Son of God, why not? as Luther noted "God died on the cross!" and "With God all things are possible!" Its only pagan (Greek) philosophy that causes an obstruction to the thought. In anycase, the scriptures say Jesus did not see corruption, assuredly he died but he did not return to the dust (annihilated) as all others who have died. So he was not annihilated.

If death is indeed "separation from God," Jesus surely paid this price on our behalf (Mat. 27:46 NASB), but for Jesus to be "annihilated" on our behalf, there would be no Jesus left to resurrect. I cannot accept this. Do you understand where I am coming from?

Yep! But as I said above: the scriptures say Jesus did not see corruption, assuredly he died but he did not return to the dust (annihilated) as all others who have died. So he was not annihilated.

An aside: My mother believed that those who were cremated wouldn't be resurrected. As her priest explained to her, when explaining her error: "With God all things are possible!".

I presume you are arguing from the view of a "God the Son", being "God" he cannot cease to exist. If so then neither can he become man, become sin for us or die (the usual arguement: God is unchangable). However, as the pre-existent, begotten Son of God he can do all these things, and did, as his Father is the source and cause of him!

The Nicene faith is: "And [we believe] in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being homoousia (of one substance) with the Father". The operative word here is "begotten". Jesus is not the "unbegotten". A.Paul says the Father raised Jesus from the dead.

In other places you seem to suggest that the Father, Son and Spirit as the one God, are as God a singularity (which suggests the Sabellian heresy, one being=one person), thus God in scripture always refers to the three. I trust you do not support Sabellian (oneness pentecostal) opinion, which is not supportable from scripture!

The economic Trinity which even most unitarians and all Nicenes accept, teaches from scripture. the distinction of persons, a heirarchy of participation (functional subordination) in respect of the Godhead's intervention in human affairs. The ontological Trinity, teaches the unity of the three in their existence = in regards to us: the purpose of the salvation of men. Thus they have homoousia (Nicea) not that they are homoousia (Sabellius' teaching that was condemned in the 3rd century). Its a fine distinction but one that we must pay close attention.

Thus the Son being God from God could become man, become sin, die and be resurrected as his Father is the source and cause of his being. the Son is preserved in the love of the Father for his Son. Not created as his tool but begotten as an exact copy of himself, as a Son, for the purpose that the Father's love for us is made manifested (Heb 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; 1 John 4:9 etc).

What I have come to appreciate about Nicean theology is its soundness. And its avoidence of self contradiction. If we aren't careful we find ourselves refuting one opinion (thesis), by defending another opinion, the thesis of which, is in fact the anti-thesis to the first thesis.

...In most cases all that wrath stuff is rhetoric, for God is even said to regret, but the symbolism has great impact... vengence (gr. ekdikēsis) belongs to God! At 2 Peter 2:14 ekdikēsis is translated in the KJV as punishment.

Seems to me that if we are to be completely honest with ourselves we can't sweep ALL the talk of God's wrath and vengeance under a "rhetorical rug." Some, yes. All, no. I believe a BALANCED view of God includes not only His mercy, compassion and love, but also a sober acknowledgment of His utter goodness, holiness, righteousness - and it is these characteristics that require Him to punish evil. The very phrase "the Wrath of the Lamb" is telling us an often overlooked truth, even though it may seem like an oxymoron.

I don't find it an oxymoron at all. My paradigm is the Lamb has temper (which lambs do) but remains a Lamb in nature. The nature over-rules all else.

There is nothing that "requires" God to punish anything, evil results in self punishment always! EG: If you are stupid enough to live near a smoking volcano simply for self gain, then one has to anticipate that the volcano will explode. One can't blame God for the repercussions of the volcano exploding. Though it is many persons inclination (same with all choices we make).

Waving the offenders out of existence would seem like a most benign compromise on God's part, especially if a little purgatory is thrown in first to satisfy our personal yearnings for past injustices, but if such is really the case I find God has made it as difficult as He possibly could for us to find that truth in His Word.

I find it screams out to us from scripture! What happened to Babylon, Sodom, Tyre and all the people in them? What happened to Lot's wife? What happened to the Temple? What happens to all that die - dust to dust or not? Desolation! Obliteration! Annihilation! Pick a word, they all indicate the cessation of existence for those who reject Godliness.

Think on your words. Your idea would require that life to come is an evolutionary process - a progression (only works if you accept the idea of purgatory). I understand that those granted eternal life are perfect in Christ Jesus already (cp. Col 1:28).

Poor choice of words on my part. Instead of "process" I should have said "STATE," as in a "continuous state of punishment" and "continuous state of eternal life." Certainly the saved have been made holy in Christ, and we already have a perfect standing in Christ before God.

a "state" I can agree with. The difficulty of course: state doesn't preclude annihilated.

It would be like interpreting "Everlasting LIFE" as "Everlasting RESURRECTION." Do you see the difference?

Your analogy only works if you argue that the life to come is not a fait accompli...

How so?

You'd have to assume that "Everlasting LIFE" is a process and not a one off event that has a permanent effect. A "state" commensurate with a one off event. The big question: "Is this a state of existence or a fait accompli, a state of finality (completion)?"

Peace

[apostoli]

A correction...

You'd have to assume that "Everlasting LIFE" is a process and not a one off event that has a permanent effect. A "state" commensurate with a one off event. The big question: "Is this a state of existence or a fait accompli, a state of finality (completion)?"

You'd have to assume that "Everlasting LIFE" is a process and not a one off event that has a permanent effect. That is: a continuous process, that has many states, as opposed to a "state" commensurate within a one off event. The big question: "Is this a state of existence or a fait accompli, a state of finality (completion)?"

In my history with computer enginerring a "state" is a timed event, whereas as a systems designer, it is an intervening event. In any case it is a one off for each event, which can designate progress or completion. Imo, we are taught about completion!

Peace

[xcav8tor]

Hi apostoli,

As far as I am aware there is no mention of a 3rd temple in the NT other than Christ himself and we in him.

Granted it is not spoken of numerically. This has to be deduced from the scriptural clues. In the same fashion, Ezekiel 40 describes a future Millennial temple which I would consider to be the FOURTH. I cannot accept it is being allegorical because of all the detail and dimensions given, which to my mind would have no more spiritual significance than a general reference to "a temple" would.

Even though Paul wrote prior to the destruction of the second temple, he spoke of the "lawless one" entering the Jewish temple at the time immediately prior to Christ's Second Coming, at which time Christ will PERSONALLY dispose of him. Since Christ's personal return is future, and Christ destroys the lawless one AT THAT TIME, then the Jewish temple in which the lawless one proclaims himself to be God must ALSO exist in the future. Since the SECOND temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., this would require a THIRD Jewish temple to be rebuilt.

And what do we find? The Jews are earnestly planning for such an event, complete with blueprints, scale models, temple furniture, priestly garments, etc. - even to having genetically tracked down Aaron's descendants to train for their duties of temple service. To see what has already been manufactured, check out www.templeinstitute.org and for a relevant article, go to http://www.apocalypsesoon.org/xfile-4.html

After Christ's return, the temple Ezekiel saw will be constructed for use in the Millennium. The return to Mosaic sacrifice will no longer be for the purpose of salvation of course, as Christ has made the final payment for sin once and for all, but these sacrifices will serve as a sobering visual to those living at that time of the horrifying reality of death and the penalty that sin incurs - not unreasonable considering they will be living in a virtually deathless society (where anyone dying at 100 will be considered accursed - Isa 65:20).

Imu, Matthew is referring to the destruction of the 2nd temple (which the 1st christians took heed of and fled to Endessa). Vs30 refers to the "sign of the Son of man in heaven" the coming is that which is to follow = the expectation, not necessarily an immediate event... The various understandings of unfulfilled prophesy are yet to be proved... In anycase, here is my reasoning on revelation...

Thanks for sharing your POV. As we are drifting even further off topic, I will try to keep my replies to a minimum.

Two things remain puzzling:

1. if the death of the Harlot by fire isn't annihilation, obliteration, a complete cessation of existence, what is it?
2. if the diabolos does not refer to both Satan, the fallen angels & Beast 1, what was the fate of Beast 1, what was the fate of the fallen angels?

1) If you are asking what "the lake of fire" refers to, I would say an isolated realm or alternate reality where the lost are left to regret for eternity the foolishness of their rejection of God's grace and/or the misery their selfish natures have brought upon themselves, always consumed by desires for love, peace and joy which can never be fulfilled. Here they are unable to contaminate the environment where the saved enjoy eternal life in a mutual loving relationship with God

2) It is my understanding, right or wrong, that Satan, the First Beast (the person of the Antichrist), the Second Beast (the person of the False Prophet, perhaps the Pope of the day) will all end up in "the lake of fire" (see above) which Jesus specifically said was "prepared for the devil and his angels." Of course that means the fallen angels are also there, though their consignment is not directly mentioned in Revelation. I do not believe that Satan or his minions are "in charge of hell" but just as much under God's punishment as everyone else there - they would be rendered powerless, and perhaps limited in their interaction with one another as in current prisons.

As for the "Whore of Babylon" who rides the beast, I believe this is not a literal woman, but a symbol of the One World Religion which aids the Antichrist in his rise to power, but is later discarded when he enters the rebuilt Jewish temple to proclaim himself to be Almighty God. By this time "she" has outlived "her" usefulness.

[ xcav8tor: You claim that, "There is only only penalty for sin that God prescribes, and that is death - cessation of existence," but if this is so, then Christ's payment for our sin would have required Jesus' annihilation, would it not? Did Jesus ever "cease to exist"? Could Jesus, being God, ever "cease to exist"? ]

As son of man why not! As Son of God, why not? as Luther noted "God died on the cross!" and "With God all things are possible!" Its only pagan (Greek) philosophy that causes an obstruction to the thought. In any case, the scriptures say Jesus did not see corruption, assuredly he died but he did not return to the dust (annihilated) as all others who have died. So he was not annihilated.

Because (as I understand it) annihilation is forever. Once something has completely ceased to exist it has lost all hope of continuity and is gone once and for all. Only a copy can be made at that point. Jesus, being God by nature, is inherently self-existent and by definition CANNOT cease to exist. His human nature, on the other hand, was subject to physical death (separation of body and soul/spirit) and on the cross He experienced spiritual death (separation from the person of God the Father). To my mind, if Jesus' human soul/spirit ceased to exist upon His death, then it would have had to have been RECREATED as a COPY of the original, but Jesus assured His disciples - IT IS I MYSELF! HANDLE ME AND SEE! (Luke 24:39)

Yep! But as I said above: the scriptures say Jesus did not see corruption, assuredly he died but he did not return to the dust (annihilated) as all others who have died. So he was not annihilated.

You are talking now about the body. I was talking about the soul. We both agree that the body was not annihilated, but if the soul does not consciously survive the death of the body, it makes little sense for Christ and Stephen to hand over their souls for safekeeping when these are about to fade into nothingness, does it?

I presume you are arguing from the view of a "God the Son", being "God" he cannot cease to exist. If so then neither can he become man, become sin for us or die (the usual arguement: God is unchangable). However, as the pre-existent, begotten Son of God he can do all these things, and did, as his Father is the source and cause of him!

Jesus as the pre-existing "God the Son" could not cease to be God or change Who He is by nature (God is immutable, Jesus is immutable - Heb. 13:8), but THE PERSON of Jesus, the Second Person of the Trinity, could take on an ADDITIONAL HUMAN NATURE, which is what I believe to be the case and the position of orthodoxy. IOW, the PERSON Jesus, God the Son of God, after the incarnation WAS INDEED THE PERSON OF GOD IN THE FLESH, but it was ONLY HIS HUMAN NATURE which was mortal and able to physically die. Nonetheless, His death was not only physical in nature, but spiritual in that when He bore our sins on the cross, He experienced the SPIRITUAL DEATH OF SEPARATION FROM THE PERSON OF GOD THE FATHER (Mat. 27:46). It is because the PERSON of Christ has 2 natures that it can be said that "God died" and it is the DEITY of the PERSON of the Son of God that gives His HUMANITY sufficient worth (ie. infinite value) to PAY FOR ALL THE SINS OF ALL OF MANKIND via His death.

It is the continuity of the continuous existence of the PERSON of The Son of God which makes our salvation possible. At least I cannot see it working otherwise. The PERSON of Jesus exists as BOTH God and Man, as an ETERNAL and UNCREATED DIVINE SPIRIT who also possesses a HUMAN soul/spirit, neither of which has ever been annihilated or "ceased to exist" at any point in time (or eternity). Even though He has 2 natures, the PERSON of Jesus CANNOT be divided or annihilated.

In other places you seem to suggest that the Father, Son and Spirit as the one God, are as God a singularity (which suggests the Sabellian heresy, one being=one person), thus God in scripture always refers to the three. I trust you do not support Sabellian (oneness pentecostal) opinion, which is not supportable from scripture!

The Sabellian heresy says the Father, Son and Spirit are in reality ONE BEING/ONE PERSON, playing 3 separate ROLES. I DO NOT believe that at all. I AM NOT a Oneness Pentecostal. Have you read my defense of the Trinity on the Basketball Court? If not, please take the time to do so and PM me if there is anything I have said there that you feel is not completely orthodox and in keeping with all the Christian Creeds. Please do not read any emotion into what I am saying here. This is merely to set the record straight. I am not offended by your inquiry.

The economic Trinity which even most unitarians and all Nicenes accept, teaches from scripture. the distinction of persons, a heirarchy of participation (functional subordination) in respect of the Godhead's intervention in human affairs. The ontological Trinity, teaches the unity of the three in their existence = in regards to us: the purpose of the salvation of men. Thus they have homoousia (Nicea) not that they are homoousia (Sabellius' teaching that was condemned in the 3rd century). Its a fine distinction but one that we must pay close attention.

I fully acknowledge that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are EACH DISTINCT, SEPARATE, INDIVIDUAL MINDS or PERSONS. That being said, they SHARE ONE DIVINE ESSENCE, the Son being begotten of the Father, the Spirit proceeding from both the Father and the Son.

[ xcav8tor: Waving the offenders out of existence would seem like a most benign compromise on God's part, especially if a little purgatory is thrown in first to satisfy our personal yearnings for past injustices, but if such is really the case I find God has made it as difficult as He possibly could for us to find that truth in His Word. ]

I find it screams out to us from scripture! What happened to Babylon, Sodom, Tyre and all the people in them? What happened to Lot's wife? What happened to the Temple? What happens to all that die - dust to dust or not? Desolation! Obliteration! Annihilation! Pick a word, they all indicate the cessation of existence for those who reject Godliness.

Certainly in physical terms, I agree with you. They have all been destroyed, obliterated, annihilated, and for all intents and purposes (though not on a molecular level) "ceased to exist." But I don't find this spelled out when it talks about our souls/spirits. Here is is not quite as cut and dried. "Destroyed" when it comes to one's spirit may only have the sense of "ruined" and "spoiled for it's purpose." I don't see anywhere in the Bible where the term "destroyed" in connection with one's spirit MUST MEAN annihilated in the sense of passing out of existence - where this is incontrovertibly shown to be the intent of the context.

a "state" I can agree with. The difficulty of course: state doesn't preclude annihilated.

(A correction...) You'd have to assume that "Everlasting LIFE" is a process and not a one off event that has a permanent effect. That is: a continuous process, that has many states, as opposed to a "state" commensurate within a one off event. The big question: "Is this a state of existence or a fait accompli, a state of finality (completion)?"

In my history with computer engineering a "state" is a timed event, whereas as a systems designer, it is an intervening event. In any case it is a one off for each event, which can designate progress or completion. Imo, we are taught about completion!

My "assumption" is that everlasting life is a "state" which begins at a point in time (believers already have it - John 5:24), becomes fully effective at our resurrection (death swallowed up by immortality - 1 Cor. 15:51-54), and continues into eternity (Rev. 21:1-7).

Regards,
xcav8tor

[JWDisciple]

The bible states :

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;


Behold the fig tree AND all the trees ........Does that imply that the fig tree , is not a tree ? My point is that , saying that because the bible states " the body and the soul " ...doesn't necessarily imply that one is different than the other or independent of the other ...

Let me , if I may , present an analogy ..The electricity comes from the electric company ..and it flows through the wires , and comes in contact with the light bulb . The result is ..Light .

The Spirit comes from Jehovah ..it comes in contact with the body . The result is ..Life / Soul / Consciousness / Awareness / Personal Identity ..

When you flip or turn the switch ..the electricity leaves the light bulb , returns to it's source , and the Light disapears ..It dies ...You've probably heard someone say something like " kill the lights " ..Turn it off .

When the Spirit of God leaves your body and is no longer there to make the heart beat , the brain and nervous system function .etc Your Life disapears , you die. You only exist in God's memory ... I really don't know how Jehovah will resurrect us ..what the dynamics of that are ..Only Jehovah really knows ..Nonetheless ..When we wakeup from our sleep , in the day of resurrection ..we will be the exact same person we are now ...

It wont be a clone or a Xerox copy ..It will be you .


JWDisciple

[IncRus]

The bible states :

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;


Behold the fig tree AND all the trees ........Does that imply that the fig tree , is not a tree ? My point is that , saying that because the bible states " the body and the soul " ...doesn't necessarily imply that one is different than the other or independent of the other ...

Let me , if I may , present an analogy ..The electricity comes from the electric company ..and it flows through the wires , and comes in contact with the light bulb . The result is ..Light .

The Spirit comes from Jehovah ..it comes in contact with the body . The result is ..Life / Soul / Consciousness / Awareness / Personal Identity ..

When you flip or turn the switch ..the electricity leaves the light bulb , returns to it's source , and the Light disapears ..It dies ...You've probably heard someone say something like " kill the lights " ..Turn it off .

When the Spirit of God leaves your body and is no longer there to make the heart beat , the brain and nervous system function .etc Your Life disapears , you die. You only exist in God's memory ... I really don't know how Jehovah will resurrect us ..what the dynamics of that are ..Only Jehovah really knows ..Nonetheless ..When we wakeup from our sleep , in the day of resurrection ..we will be the exact same person we are now ...

It wont be a clone or a Xerox copy ..It will be you .


JWDisciple

Nice post! There is NO analogy better than this to explain what SOUL is.

The King James Version of Gen. 2:7 describes WHAT a living SOUL is, thus: "And the Lord God FORMED man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living SOUL."

The translators of the Today's English Version understood Gen. 2:7 to mean, thus: "Then the Lord God took some soil from the ground and formed a man out of it; he BREATHED life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man BEGAN to live."

Therefore, a "breathing, living man" is a "living soul" while a "non-breathing, dead man" is a "dead soul."

The King James Version of Eccl. 12:7 describes what happens to a "living soul" (cf. Gen. 2:7) when it dies: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was (cf. Gen. 3:19): and the SPIRIT shall return to God who gave it" (cf. Gen. 2:7).

The translators of the Today's English Version understood Eccl. 12:7 to mean, thus: "Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the BREATH OF LIFE will go back to God, who gave it to us" (cf. Gen. 2:7).

God says, "Behold, all SOULS are mine; as the SOUL of the father, so also the SOUL of the son is mine: the SOUL that sinneth, it shll DIE" (Eze. 18:4 KJV).

The translators of the Today's English Version understood Eze. 18:4 to mean, thus: "The LIFE of every person belongs to me, the life of the parent as well as that of the child. The PERSON who sins is the one who will die.

[xcav8tor]

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; ........Does that imply that the fig tree , is not a tree ? My point is that , saying that because the bible states " the body and the soul " ...doesn't necessarily imply that one is different than the other or independent of the other ...

The CONTEXT of Luke clearly says Jesus was using a PARABLE - in this case using a fig tree as a metaphor of the nation of Israel (compare Joel 1:6-7) and comparing the fig tree putting forth leaves to Israel's rebirth as a nation in the days preceding His return.

The CONTEXT of 1 Thes. 5:23 however, is NOT A PARABLE. The apostle is giving a benediction at the end of a letter and praying for the recipients, that their ENTIRE person, SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless until Christ's Second Coming. Unless the apostle is speaking of 3 SEPARATE AND DISTINCT components of the human being, he is being needlessly repetitive.

If soul = body + "breath" as you claim, then IN EFFECT YOU HAVE PAUL SAYING: "I pray God your whole (SOUL) AND (SOUL as body + breath) be preserved." While the word "soul" sometimes is representative of the entire person, it clearly cannot be the case here. Such wording is obviously redundant and cannot be what the apostle meant (unless you consider him to be either a sloppy writer or mentally challenged. I don't).

If Paul actually believed what the Watchtower teaches, all he would have to do was say, "I pray God you whole SOUL be preserved," OR "I pray God your whole BODY AND SPIRIT be preserved" as these would be equivalent and (in you POV) all-inclusive statements. But since he used ALL 3 - spirit, soul AND body, it is obvious he has a different understanding of man's nature than the JWs have.

Let me , if I may , present an analogy ... When the Spirit of God leaves your body and is no longer there to make the heart beat , the brain and nervous system function .etc Your Life disappears , you die. You only exist in God's memory

"Existing" in God's memory is NOT "existing" at all. It's a pseudo-explanation the Watchtower has invented to avoid the direct implications of their false teaching about the annihilation of the soul at death.

... I really don't know how Jehovah will resurrect us ..what the dynamics of that are ..Only Jehovah really knows ..Nonetheless ..When we wake up from our sleep , in the day of resurrection ..we will be the exact same person we are now ...

So you are admitting that you have no direct knowledge of how it works, or any scripture that teaches the Watchtower's assertion, yet you insist you are telling us the truth.

It wont be a clone or a Xerox copy ..It will be you.

Despite your protests to the contrary, IT MUST BE A COPY. Once you have ceased to exist, you can ONLY be copied because THE CONTINUITY IS LOST. YOU will be gone forever - just like everyone else, believer and non-believer alike. That's what is basically wrong with the whole JW theory of RECREATION vs RESURRECTION. It is neither Christian or Biblical. See http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...30&postcount=1

Regards,
xcav8tor

[JWDisciple]

You wrote :

The CONTEXT of Luke clearly says Jesus was using a PARABLE - in this case using a fig tree as a metaphor of the nation of Israel (compare Joel 1:6-7) and comparing the fig tree putting forth leaves to Israel's rebirth as a nation in the days preceding His return.

The CONTEXT of 1 Thes. 5:23 however, is NOT A PARABLE.......

Whether the context is a parable or not is immaterial ...You are asserting that since Jesus stated that the " ..body AND soul " would suffer destruction , then they must be somehow independent of each other ...This is an unnecessary assumption . The soul is the result of the body receiving the breath or spirit of God ..


" The Spirit ( Ruach ) of God hath made me, and the breath ( Neshamah ) of the Almighty hath given me life. " Job 33:4

"All the while my breath ( Neshamah ) is ( present tense ) in me, and the spirit ( Ruach ) of God is ( present tense ) in my nostrils " Job 27:3 ( Emphasis Mine )

" In whose hand is the soul ( Nephesh / Soul ) of every living thing, and the breath ( Ruach - Spirit ) of all mankind." Job 12:10


Our life and breath ( spirit ) , as well as the life and spirit of all living creatures , is the result or effect of the same cause ( the ruach / breath / spirit of Jehovah ) . This is why the bible states :

" v19 - For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (Echad Ruach / One Spirit / One Breath ); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

v20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all return to dust.
v21 Who knoweth the breath ( ruach / spirit ) of man that goeth upward, and the breath of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? " (Ecc 3:19-21 )


God's life giving spirit / breath , is within us all , both man and beast ...and when we die , we all die ..there is no difference between their death and ours .

“Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)

"...thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to dust..." (Psa 104:29 )

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know nothing...." (Ecc 9:5)


"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish..." (Psa 146:4)


v14 " If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit ( Ruach ) and his breath ( Neshama );

v15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. " Job 34:14-15

You wrote :

The apostle is giving a benediction at the end of a letter and praying for the recipients, that their ENTIRE person, SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY be preserved blameless until Christ's Second Coming. Unless the apostle is speaking of 3 SEPARATE AND DISTINCT components of the human being, he is being needlessly repetitive.

If soul = body + "breath" as you claim, then IN EFFECT YOU HAVE PAUL SAYING: "I pray God your whole (SOUL) AND (SOUL as body + breath) be preserved." While the word "soul" sometimes is representative of the entire person, it clearly cannot be the case here. Such wording is obviously redundant and cannot be what the apostle meant (unless you consider him to be either a sloppy writer or mentally challenged. I don't).

OK let's follow your line of reasoning :


"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy HEART, and with all thy SOUL, and with all thy MIND , and with all thy STRENGTH: this is the first commandment." (Mark 12:29-30)



.......Heart (spirit , mind , emotions .etc ?) , Soul ( spirit , soul , mind , emotions ..what ? ), "Mind" ( ?????? ) and something else called "Strength" .


Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit ( Ruach ) and his breath ( Neshama )
Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

The above verse from Job , is a Hebrew parallelism.. When God gathers his spirit / breath ..we return to the dust . The "Spirit" returns to God , and we return to the earth / dust . The "spirit" is that which returns to God ..it is immortal , because God is immortal , however we are mortals ( subject to death . Death = the opposite of life / the cessation of life ..)


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Death IS NOT swallowed up in victory when you die, . In fact , that is when death is victorious. It is swallowed up in victory when Jesus returns with all of his angels , and raises you from the grave .That is when mortality puts on immortality , and death is , once and for all , swallowed up in victory .


Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life:


Immortality is something Christians can seek ( it is not something they possess at the moment .....) It is a noble aspiration and goal , provided we desire it for the right reasons ..namely , to serve Jehovah and His Son , forever .

You wrote :

If Paul actually believed what the Watchtower teaches, all he would have to do was say, "I pray God you whole SOUL be preserved," OR "I pray God your whole BODY AND SPIRIT be preserved" as these would be equivalent and (in you POV) all-inclusive statements. But since he used ALL 3 - spirit, soul AND body, it is obvious he has a different understanding of man's nature than the JWs have.

The only thing apparent here , is your lack of understanding . As pointed out earlier , if I was to apply your hermeneutical methodology to Mark 12:29-30 ..it would seem man's nature would be comprised of " Heart " AND " SOUL " AND " Mind " AND "Strength" ...


Most Christians like yourself , attribute the "mind" to the soul , hence it's redundant for Jesus to say " Soul " AND " Mind " ...right ? Just following your line of reasoning .

More ..To have one's body , soul and spirit preserved for the second coming of Jesus Christ , doesn't necessarily imply that one is still conscious and alive , while dead ( What Paul said , is completely irrelevant to the issue of life IN death ..) .


Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face ( presence ), they are troubled: thou takest away THEIR breath ( Ruach / Spirit ) , they die, and return to their dust.


As you can see from the above verse ..THEIR spirit is taken away from them , they die , and return to their dust ...They return where ? To dust ...they don't go flying off to heaven or anywhere else ...they die and become dust .

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.


That same spirit that was identified as man's spirit in Psalms 104:29 , is now identified as God's spirit . We have breath / spirit , however , our spirit comes from God and returns to Him , when we die .

We return to dust ( " We " are the result , the consequence , of divine spirit , coming in contact with the inanimate elements of the earth / dust . When these two are united ..life is born . God is the animator , we are the animated .)



By way of illustration , let's say ..While the light bulb is receiving electricity , you could say that , the electricity is part of it . However , when the electricity is no longer in contact with the light bulb , it dies (No more light ) .

When we are alive , it is because God's breath or spirit is providing us with life ..the result of that contact , with divine breath / life force ..is us . You and I . .

You wrote :

"Existing" in God's memory is NOT "existing" at all. It's a pseudo-explanation the Watchtower has invented to avoid the direct implications of their false teaching about the annihilation of the soul at death.

When you fall asleep at night , and enter a deep sleep , you are unconscious . You lose all awareness of self and time ..yet after a few hours of sleep , you awake and rise again . When you are unconscious , you still exist . You might not be aware of your own existence ..nonetheless , due to the fact that your consciousness or awareness is potentially still there ...You exist ( If you are in a deep sleep or in a coma , and someone comes and kills you ..they will still be charged with murder . Whether you are continiously conscious or not , is irrelevant ...)


When you die , that mass of protoplasm you call your body , returns to the dust . However , you are still potentially conscious and alive . You are no less , potentially conscious and alive , at death , than you are when you're asleep in your bed at night .

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Before David was born , all his "members" were written in Jehovah's book ...This divine book is more effective and secure , in saving memory , than any physical brain , harddrive , thumbdrive...etc

Exo 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

However ...

Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

He never forgets the names of those that love Him ...

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


When we die and return to dust ..we will still be as potentially alive and conscious , as when we are asleep at night, .due to the fact that there will be a resurrection , and our names are written in one of Jehovah's books , containing everything we ever did ( and thought , and spoke ..) .

How exactly , will God resurrect us , from the dust , hundreds if not thousands of years after we die ? I don't know , and I really don't need to know ( the reality is , no one knows ..)....I simply place my trust in Jehovah and His Son . ( I dont need to know how everything works , in order to benefit from it ) .

I

You wrote :

So you are admitting that you have no direct knowledge of how it works, or any scripture that teaches the Watchtower's assertion, yet you insist you are telling us the truth.

Yes of course , I am admitting , I don't know . How does God turn dust , into an immortal , resurrected body ? .. That's a mystery to me . I don't even know for sure what the "book of life" is ..Is it a literal book , with paper , ink , binding material .etc ? Does God have a book publisher , with massive printing machines ? I don't need to know EVERYTHING ...

What I do know is that the Bible tells me that when I die , I will return to the dust ..and when God decides , He will resurrect me . I'm confident that He will do a perfect job , of bringing me back .

You wrote :

Despite your protests to the contrary, IT MUST BE A COPY. Once you have ceased to exist, you can ONLY be copied because THE CONTINUITY IS LOST.

"Continuity" of consciousness , is lost whenever you lose consciousness . Did you know that ? Does it then follow that , you aren't the same person , when you wake up in the morning ?

"Continuity" , is not a prerequisite , for preserving one's person , identity , memories .etc . God can do that , even better , than anything you think you have ( Your Brain , Your Ghost Self ...etc )

Whatever component you believe is maintaining your identity and memories now , is nothing compared to the infinite , omnipotent Creator . His harddrive is better than yours .


You're a finite being , limited by your ....IQ , biology , time and space ...God has no such limitations ..He can accomplish things that are beyond your wildest dreams .

I would have absolutely no objection, to the idea of life in death , or consciousness after death , if it was supported by scripture . The preponderance of evidence however , does not support that theory.

You wrote :

YOU will be gone forever - just like everyone else, believer and non-believer alike. That's what is basically wrong with the whole JW theory of RECREATION vs RESURRECTION. It is neither Christian or Biblical. See http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...30&postcount=1

As long as Jehovah remembers you , and intends to resurrect you ....then you're not gone forever . If you die , tonight , in your sleep , your next conscious experience would be , the day of resurrection / day of judgement .


Whether you're conscious or unconscious , whether your body is intact protoplasm or dust , mixed with fertilizer on someone's farm ..One day , God will resurrect you and you will be conscious and aware , once again .

JWDisciple

[JWDisciple]

Correction :

I cited - Job 34:15 " All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust " ...then I noted :

That same spirit that was identified as man's spirit in Psalms 104:29 , is now identified as God's spirit ....

I actually meant to cite the previous verse ..verse 14 :

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit ( Ruach ) and his breath ( Neshama ) ...

The point was that ..the life giving spirit that is often identified as the spirit and neshama of God ..is likewise identified as our own "spirit" or breath . Job even states that the spirit or breath of God is in his nostrils ...Job 27:3 .

So , yes one could say that we have a body , soul and spirit ..nonetheless as pointed out in my previous post ..that doesn't prove anything as far as life IN death or being conscious in death .

[superdan54]

I read part of this thread today, and then came across some very compelling scriptures in my daily reading this evening:

Isaiah 26:14

14 The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise; Therefore Thou hast punished and destroyed them, And Thou hast wiped out all remembrance of them.

We can exegete the ink out of this, but I have a very hard time believing xcav8tor's interpretation of destroy. The dead will not exist in a ruined state, they will not live, plain and simple. They will be punished and destroyed for their transgression against God and will be forever forgotten.

Now compare this a few verses later with the description of God's chosen:

Isaiah 26:19

19 Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

The more and more I look at the text alone, the more it becomes apparent to me that natural immortality was a doctrine introduced by early Church Fathers who were influenced by Greek and Gnostic thought. Augustine is one example, who was converted out of a Gnostic sect that believed many of the ideas associated with our modern idea of the nature of the soul.