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Thread: The right to die?

  1. #271
    tWebber Darth Xena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post

    I'll also say this about you Dee Dee, you've really changed in the past three years. In the past I used to not read much of your posts because I find little in common with you. But unlike most here that talk about small-government, you actually walk the walk and are consistent now.

    I've gone through some changes myself, so I can relate.
    Thank you Sea that means a great deal to me.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.


  2. #272
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Xena View Post
    My life is my own, and that entails the right to say I have had enough for whatever reason I deem fit.
    I hear many people think like that!!

    So on day of resurrection of everyone you'll take it up with Almighty One?
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  3. #273
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Xena View Post
    Nice straw man. I never said everything is an absolutely right. Particularly since I am a hard deontological libertarian, I obviously don't think EVERYTHING is a right.

    But whether or not *I* have to live IS the most fundamental of rights. Nothing is more. Without it, there is no real right to "life." My life is my own, and that entails the right to say I have had enough for whatever reason I deem fit.
    Not a strawman - it's not a right.

    You may be able to commit suicide - but that doesn't make it a right. The idea that life is only meaningfully yours if you can end it is ridiculous - you don't need to end it for it to be yours and if it were true that it can only be your life if you have the ability to decide between life and death then it cannot logically be your life even if you had a right to kill yourself because you CAN'T make yourself live. Death will come - it is inevitable (sans the Second coming, of course). You can't even will your hair color let alone will yourself immortality. If your life belonging to you is tied to your ability to control life itself then it doesn't belong to you and you don't have the right to take that life. By your own premise, there is no right to die.

  4. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  5. #274
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    Righto.

    If the government can force us to live, then we are not truly free.
    Okay, out of curiosity, what noun or verb can go before that comma and this sentence not be true in your view?

    Incidentally, did you flunk bio? God has that kind of power - not government. No one,except Him, can 'force' you to live. That isn't the debate at all- it's whether or not you can kill people who want to die for whatever reason.

  6. #275
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sea of red View Post
    Not everything should be up to mob rule.
    You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.

  7. #276
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    There absolutely is not. Not everything is a right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.
    I think you're using 'right' in the legally protected sense (as I would do) and not in the basic liberty sense. SoR and DX seem to be using the latter.
    I'm not here anymore.

  8. Amen Psychic Missile, Jaecp, Sea of red amen'd this post.
  9. #277
    tWebber Darth Xena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.
    Actually breathing air is a right since you need air to live and if someone deprives you of that, they are guilty of trying to kill you.

    I think you are the one skipping pretty merrily.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.


  10. #278
    tWebber Darth Xena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrikature View Post
    I think you're using 'right' in the legally protected sense (as I would do) and not in the basic liberty sense. SoR and DX seem to be using the latter.
    I am indeed primarily using it in the liberty sense. Laws can only recognize rights (or infringe them). They do not create them.

    IF the law tomorrow gave me the legal right to die, it didn't create that right. And Teal would say that just because the law says so doesn't either since she denies a right to an abortion (as do I).
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.


  11. #279
    tWebber Darth Xena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Okay, out of curiosity, what noun or verb can go before that comma and this sentence not be true in your view?

    Incidentally, did you flunk bio? God has that kind of power - not government. No one,except Him, can 'force' you to live. That isn't the debate at all- it's whether or not you can kill people who want to die for whatever reason.
    When dealing with human affairs, generally, particularly when talking about the state, we are talking about horizontal relationships not vertical ones. God can take a life for any reason. You cannot.

    I cannot imagine the mindset that says no, you don't have a right to die in the manner of your choosing and for information and assistance if consensual.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.


  12. #280
    tWebber Darth Xena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Not a strawman - it's not a right.

    You may be able to commit suicide - but that doesn't make it a right.
    If self-ownership is a right, and I believe it is incoherent to say that it is not through argumentation ethics, you are making a self-ownership claim in even arguing the point, then there is nothing more fundamental than that.

    The idea that life is only meaningfully yours if you can end it is ridiculous - you don't need to end it for it to be yours...
    You do need the right to end it if it is entirely yours. Ownership has as its definition the right to dispose of property, and what we have is a property right in our bodies.

    and if it were true that it can only be your life if you have the ability to decide between life and death then it cannot logically be your life even if you had a right to kill yourself because you CAN'T make yourself live.
    Non-Sequitur. You have a right to freedom of movement. But that doesn't mean you have to be able to fly. Biological realities are foundational presupposition.

    Death will come - it is inevitable (sans the Second coming, of course). You can't even will your hair color let alone will yourself immortality. If your life belonging to you is tied to your ability to control life itself then it doesn't belong to you and you don't have the right to take that life. By your own premise, there is no right to die.
    And demonstrated above how fallacious that is.

    So hungry to control other people.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.


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