Dealing with death as an atheist ... part II

[lao tzu]

Atheist responses only, please.

Friday the 13th was unlucky this year. I lost my best friend, a guy I've been trying to keep breathing for most of the last decade, acting as a personal caregiver for the last couple years.

Personally, the most difficult aspect of dealing with his death is dealing with the sympathy, especially from theists who want to fall back on the "better place" response. It's unavoidable, and the presuppositions are so tightly packed that I'm forced into a rictus of gratefulness and soft words when my natural response is to lash out at the rehashing of false promises.

Online isn't bad, because I can absent myself for a while until I feel I can respond without acid. But in person it's just hell. I can figure that something near 90 percent of my neighbors and casual acquaintances are going to react within the heaven/hell/afterlife mindset, adding even more isolation to an experience that's already isolating. I'd like to think there's a better response, but I don't know what it is. The surrounding culture is what it is.

So we've got some thoughtful atheists around here, what do you think? Is there a better response than mere avoidance? What have you done in similar situations? Let's talk.

As ever, Jesse

[Seasanctuary]

I would respond by saying something affirmative about the person's life, rather than challenging -- or avoiding -- those who comment on afterlife ideas.

It may very well be that most people are simply uncomfortable themselves and picking common phrases. They may talk theology, but they really just mean they care.

[lao tzu]

I don't see it, sea. Changing the subject is still avoidance.

But you do bring up an interesting point. How many of the people confidently expressing the opinion he's gone to "a better place" actually believe that tripe, and how many are simply mouthing words they think you'd like to hear? It's the implication that interests me. My own discomfort arises from the social responsibility to be less than honest myself. What if that discomfort is shared?

What harm would there be in saying, "It's okay. I know he's gone forever."

It's bound to comfort some and discomfort others, but dammit, there has to be some entitlement to express your own grief honestly at the most tragic of personal tragedies. As atheists, it's as if we're conditioned to bite this bullet, at least here in this American culture. But as surely as the sun shines on the good and the wicked, grief is no respecter of religious beliefs. By virtue of nothing more than our shared humanity, we have an obligation to give suitable comfort and expect the same to be reciprocated.

I know this isn't an issue that can be treated as if there were bright lines between the believer and the disbeliever here. For all the protestations of future rewards, widows still weep. At least one christian here has expressed a similar frustration with the attempted consolation of a "better place." I wonder how often that helps at all.

As ever, Jesse

[zorathruster]

When others talk about the "here after" they are the ones avoiding. We form the composit of ideas that constitute who we are individually. When we die, that composit is gone. What we admire in the individual is that combination.

Due to ignorance, some people can't accept this finality of life. They cannot deal with the reality and prefer to fantisize. Memories don't help the dead, they help the living deal with life. If you were to destabilize their fantasy it would be poor timing because they are expressing a defensive posture by asserting the here after. The chances of successfully changing their perspective would be very slim.

In dealing with these people: How do you normally deal with ignorant persons. There are times when it is possible to explain, train, reform them and there are times when it is best to let them just "express" their total ignorance. The little pixie of idiocy for example here at Theology Web. No matter how many facts, how much philosohical expression is expended, she will just entrench in her idiotic misperceptions and most confrontation is wasted effort. Some like her, need toleration because confrontation is such a waste.

[Seasanctuary]

It's avoiding the religious debate, but it isn't avoiding the person. It will be harder if they ask, "Do you feel better knowing he's in a better place?" Still, you have the option of responding that you don't believe it without directly telling the other person that she is wrong for believing it.

If this still causes offense, then you can at least know it was forced by the other person.

Unfortunately it isn't a fair situation. In the USA I know, it is _RUDE_ to ever admit to thinking dead people are dead and almost completely expected to express the idea that every dead person is half-a-saint and in Heaven.

[Zeluvia]

For me, my response depends the relationships involved.

If it was someone close to the deceased, who is grieving very hard, I would not say anything but "Thank you for the thought"

Your response of "Thank you but I know he's gone forever" would be appropriate too.

I have given someone who full well knew my beliefs a sarcastic "Well, that's nice, but not true now is it?"

I know it's hard. Don't be too worried about lashing out either. You are allowed while grieving to say what you feel, and if "they" can't handle it, they will think twice about spewing platitudes the next time they are in the situation.

I no longer attend funerals, for this very reason. I send flowers, and visit the dead either before or after the crowd for my own personal goodbyes, and avoid this social mish-mash of superstition.
I take the person or people most impacted a small gift, a few days after the funeral, usually food.

And I don't care what "they" think about that.

[patwil]

I find in a lot of cases I can accurately answer "He is in a better place now" with "Yes, he is no longer in pain."

I deal with a lot of death as a nurse - it is rarely the end product of joy and great living and for those that are sudden - I rarely get "He is in a better place." When the death is sudden it is "I am sorry for your loss".

It is only when there has been pain that the "He is in a better place" comes out, and as I said, I can accurately say, "Yes, he is no longer in pain". Regardless if that "place" exists, the lack of pain makes where he is or isn't - better.

Hope this helps and I am sorry for your loss

Pat

[showmeproof]

Approximately two months ago a family member of mine passed. Some of my family is aware of my lack of belief and others, the extended family, were not. I was in a position at the memorial service where they did songs, automated responses, and lots of standing and sitting in between. I sat still the entire time and thought about the deceased. She had died of cancer and I was thankful that she no longer had to go through a very drawn out battle.

Those who do know about my lack of belief felt that I should have participated anyway...out of 'respect'. Even those who didn't know about my atheism had something to say about my lack of participation. Personally I find it more respectful to not pretend that I believe as they do. I find pretending and 'going through the motions' degrading and mockery.

Has anyone else been in this situation? How did you handle it? Did you 'go through the motions' or did you respectfully decline and spend the time thinking about your memories of the deceased?

[ChuckInSuburbia]

Those who do know about my lack of belief felt that I should have participated anyway...out of 'respect'. Even those who didn't know about my atheism had something to say about my lack of participation. Personally I find it more respectful to not pretend that I believe as they do. I find pretending and 'going through the motions' degrading and mockery.

Has anyone else been in this situation? How did you handle it? Did you 'go through the motions' or did you respectfully decline and spend the time thinking about your memories of the deceased?

When I was a young man, I would "go through the motions" in situations like this, in order to avoid confrontation with family and friends. The last thing I wanted to get involved in, if I was mourning the loss of a loved one, was a religious debate.

Now that I am a little older, wiser, and more self-confident, I no longer bother. I have taken the position that if people don't like my beliefs, they can go f*** themselves. I am no longer willing to compromise my values simply to avoid confrontation.

As for the question of how to respond to empty sentiments like, "He's in a better place," it would certainly depend on the situation and the person's intent. If the person just wanted to offer some consoling words, I would probably let it slide with a "Thank you". As patwil said, being non-existent is probably better than being in constant pain.

If, on the other hand, the person is aware of my position, and is intentionally being confrontational, then it's on. I'm not afraid to defend myself in front of my grieving friends and relatives.

[showmeproof]

Last week the woman who raised me passed. I find myself planning a religious ceremony in memory of her. Odd place to be in.