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Asher's Bakery Case Update

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  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Forced labor is a canard. The government isn't forcing them to do what they have chosen to do, the government is merely forcing them not to discriminate with respect to who they do it for.
    You're dumb Jim, but this isn't a hard concept to grasp and I doubt carrik is as dumb as you are so I suspect you are all being pretend stupid to avoid the consequences of your own philosophy: forcing someone to bake a cake for a gay wedding is, in fact, forced labour. That they are willingly baking cakes for other weddings does not mean that making them bake a cake they don't want to bake isn't forced labour. You can pretend it away all you want but the fact is that anyone who supports these kind of anti-discrimination laws is a supporter of forced labour (aka slavery).

    You also completely avoid answering the question: if telling someone to bake a cake they don't want to bake (or service someone they don't want to service) isn't forced because calling forced labour "regulations" suddenly stops it from being forced labour, the same logic should apply to requiring religious tests for business ownership. Or office for that matter. Sure, the constitution forbids it, but then again regulation isn't force, so passing regulations banning atheists from holding office shouldn't be an issue.

    How so?
    Segregation was mandatory. Like with anti-discrimination laws, you have to work extra to create two sets of services.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
      Do you have a problem with religious requirements for running a business given that fining someone for not following regulation does not constitute force?
      The business is being fined for breaking the law, that’s all.

      This is false, the Civil Rights Act does not cover butt pirates. Or cross-dressing transvestites, dwarf or otherwise.
      The Civil Rights Act outlaws discrimination based on race, colour, religion, sex, or national origin and subsequent court cases on the basis of this Act, e.g. re wedding cakes, have ruled against the perpetrators of such discrimination in favour of the LGBT couples...or in this instance by discriminating against a pro-gay marriage message on a cake.

      Jim Crow, like your own preferences, involved forced labour. The only difference between you and Bull Connor as far as this matter is concerned is the year in which you were born.
      Seriously!

      Bull Conner enshrined the principle of discrimination whereas the Civil Rights Act outlaws it.

      he freedom of everybody to refuse work for whatever reason, as ensrhined in the 13th amendment.
      Nonsense! The 13th Amendment is concerned with slavery and involuntary servitude; obeying the laws of the land does not equate in any way with involuntary servitude. These laws apply to all. It’s the 14th Amendment that counts in the Civil Rights Act, namely equal citizenship rights and equal protection of all citizens under the law.

      Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
      You do realise that the cake was not for a gay wedding, right?
      No, I wasn't aware of that, but it makes no difference to the argument. The cake shop owners are illegally discriminating against the couple on the basis of their personal prejudices.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
        You're dumb Jim, but this isn't a hard concept to grasp and I doubt carrik is as dumb as you are so I suspect you are all being pretend stupid to avoid the consequences of your own philosophy: forcing someone to bake a cake for a gay wedding is, in fact, forced labour. That they are willingly baking cakes for other weddings does not mean that making them bake a cake they don't want to bake isn't forced labour. You can pretend it away all you want but the fact is that anyone who supports these kind of anti-discrimination laws is a supporter of forced labour (aka slavery).
        They are not being forced to bake a cake since the anti-discrimination law was in place prior to their decision to go into business. They chose it. If you want to compare that to slavery, then you're the one exhibiting stupidity.
        You also completely avoid answering the question: if telling someone to bake a cake they don't want to bake (or service someone they don't want to service) isn't forced because calling forced labour "regulations" suddenly stops it from being forced labour, the same logic should apply to requiring religious tests for business ownership. Or office for that matter. Sure, the constitution forbids it, but then again regulation isn't force, so passing regulations banning atheists from holding office shouldn't be an issue.
        No, that wouldn't be the same thing, first off, such a law would have nothing to do with forced labor, second, it would be just the opposite, that would be government sanctioned discrimination, not anti-discrimination, which I'm sure you wouldn't agree with.


        Segregation was mandatory. Like with anti-discrimination laws, you have to work extra to create two sets of services.
        There is no law that says you can't be a christian business and so sell only christian goods. But that is not the case here, they are not a christian bakery, they are a bakery owned by christians.
        Last edited by JimL; 10-31-2016, 06:02 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
          They are not being forced to bake a cake since the anti-discrimination law was in place prior to their decision to go into business.
          Really? Reference please.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            They are not being forced to bake a cake since the anti-discrimination law was in place prior to their decision to go into business.
            But the existence of gay weddings in the US was not. That argument fails.

            P.S. I suspect this is the only argument that has been made in this thread that does not apply equally well to mixed-race marriages.
            Last edited by Roy; 10-31-2016, 11:29 AM.
            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

            MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
            MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

            seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

            Comment


            • Originally posted by "Bull" Tassman View Post
              The Civil Rights Act outlaws discrimination based on race, colour, religion, sex, or national origin and subsequent court cases on the basis of this Act, e.g. re wedding cakes, have ruled against the perpetrators of such discrimination in favour of the LGBT couples...or in this instance by discriminating against a pro-gay marriage message on a cake.
              In all likelihood the court cases are based on local legislation, not the civil rights act. If they are based on the civil rights act then they are not just unconstitutional, they're not even actual laws.

              obeying the laws of the land does not equate in any way with involuntary servitude
              It does when the law demands that you do work you don't want to do, idiot. The only time the state can force you to work is as punishment for a crime. This is actually explicitly stated in the thirteenth amendment, if you could be bothered to read it:

              Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
              Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
              Last edited by Darth Executor; 10-31-2016, 11:29 AM.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                They are not being forced to bake a cake since the anti-discrimination law was in place prior to their decision to go into business. They chose it. If you want to compare that to slavery, then you're the one exhibiting stupidity.
                I'm not "comparing" it to slavery idiot, it IS slavery. And no, the law was not in place before they chose to go into business. Antidisquimination laws for gay marriage are very new.

                No, that wouldn't be the same thing, first off, such a law would have nothing to do with forced labor, second, it would be just the opposite, that would be government sanctioned discrimination, not anti-discrimination, which I'm sure you wouldn't agree with.
                I didn't say it's forced labour. I said it's force. According to you, the bakery isn't forced to do work that they don't want to do because it's "business regulation". Therefore it's not force to fine a baker for refusing to profess Christianity either. After all it's just a business regulation.

                There is no law that says you can't be a christian business and so sell only christian goods. But that is not the case here, they are not a christian bakery, they are a bakery owned by christians.
                Completely irrelevant.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  I'm not "comparing" it to slavery idiot, it IS slavery.
                  I was going to compile a light-hearted check-list of comparisons between slavery and baking a cake, but I quickly realised that the degrading and dangerous conditions faced by actual slaves were so appalling that there was no way to make it both humorous and accurate.

                  I've come to the conclusion that anyone who can equate a few hours paid work with a lifetime of violent oppression and poverty is insulting everyone who is aware of the reality of slavery, and especially insulting all those who are themselves slaves or descendants thereof.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    I was going to compile a light-hearted check-list of comparisons between slavery and baking a cake, but I quickly realised that the degrading and dangerous conditions faced by actual slaves were so appalling that there was no way to make it both humorous and accurate.

                    I've come to the conclusion that anyone who can equate a few hours paid work with a lifetime of violent oppression and poverty is insulting everyone who is aware of the reality of slavery, and especially insulting all those who are themselves slaves or descendants thereof.
                    tl;dr slavery is ok as long as it's only a little bit and not a lifetime commitment.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                      In all likelihood the court cases are based on local legislation, not the civil rights act. If they are based on the civil rights act then they are not just unconstitutional, they're not even actual laws.
                      They're mostly based on state laws, but use the same language, namely "prohibiting discrimination by public accommodations", as found in the Civil Rights Act. E.g. "Longstanding Colorado state law prohibits public accommodations, including businesses such as Masterpiece Cakeshop, from refusing service based on factors such as race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation."

                      http://aclu-co.org/court-cases/masterpiece-cakeshop/

                      If ever this case made it to the SCOTUS it's virtually certain that it would arrive at the same conclusion as the Colorado court.

                      It does when the law demands that you do work you don't want to do, idiot. The only time the state can force you to work is as punishment for a crime. This is actually explicitly stated in the thirteenth amendment, if you could be bothered to read it:

                      Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
                      Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
                      This is just nonsense. Obeying the laws of the land does not equate in any way with involuntary servitude and nor does entering the workforce or starting a business. By comparing paid employment with slavery is trivialising the latter and you should be ashamed of yourself. The 14th Amendment (which the Civil Rights Act is based upon) posits equal citizenship rights and equal protection under the law for ALL citizens.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        I was going to compile a light-hearted check-list of comparisons between slavery and baking a cake, but I quickly realised that the degrading and dangerous conditions faced by actual slaves were so appalling that there was no way to make it both humorous and accurate.

                        I've come to the conclusion that anyone who can equate a few hours paid work with a lifetime of violent oppression and poverty is insulting everyone who is aware of the reality of slavery, and especially insulting all those who are themselves slaves or descendants thereof.
                        You expected to get rational thought from Darth Executor? The guy is a parody come to life.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          I'm not "comparing" it to slavery idiot, it IS slavery. .
                          I can only imagine the outrage on this forum if Starlight made a comparison between baking a cake and human slavery.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                            I can only imagine the outrage on this forum if Starlight made a comparison between baking a cake and human slavery.
                            But he's a commie pinko liberal leftie, it's totally different.

                            Comment


                            • In hindsight this bakery should have made the cake and then put a huge notice in their window to enform other customers they'd been compelled to make the cake to comply with law xyz but wish to make it clear that as Christians they themselves do not support gay marriage.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abigail View Post
                                In hindsight this bakery should have made the cake and then put a huge notice in their window to enform other customers they'd been compelled to make the cake to comply with law xyz but wish to make it clear that as Christians they themselves do not support gay marriage.
                                That's as ridiculous as suggesting atheist bakers put a similar sign in their window saying they don't go along with all this god nonsense when they provide a wedding cake for a traditional wedding. Surely it's taken for granted that public service-providers don't necessarily agree with the various views and beliefs of their customers. Who cares anyway?
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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