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Thread: The End of Protestantism...?

  1. #11
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB DoulosChristou View Post
    So I do have some very minor misgivings about some elements so far of how Leithart discusses church, and somewhat larger misgivings about the potential for effectively reducing the celebratory creativity of the church (which is also one of the more serious objections I actually have toward Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy in their present state).
    A couple quick points:

    Celebratory creativity was gradually curtailed in the early church because it had a tendency to verge into heresy. And the very stability of the liturgy has ensured that, e.g., tyrannical regimes could not induce alterations. Even if no one can preach openly, the beliefs of the Orthodox Church are hard-wired into its cycle of worship. Anywhere I go, no matter the language, I can follow the liturgy well enough to follow what's going on, and can know what they believe.

    That said, deviating from Byzantine court dress of 1,000 years ago wouldn't change the meaningful content of the service, and I've seen such minor variations as reading certain 'silent' prayers aloud be roundly condemned.
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  3. #12
    tWebber JB DoulosChristou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    A couple quick points:

    Celebratory creativity was gradually curtailed in the early church because it had a tendency to verge into heresy. And the very stability of the liturgy has ensured that, e.g., tyrannical regimes could not induce alterations. Even if no one can preach openly, the beliefs of the Orthodox Church are hard-wired into its cycle of worship. Anywhere I go, no matter the language, I can follow the liturgy well enough to follow what's going on, and can know what they believe.

    That said, deviating from Byzantine court dress of 1,000 years ago wouldn't change the meaningful content of the service, and I've seen such minor variations as reading certain 'silent' prayers aloud be roundly condemned.
    Those are good points. Perhaps there is something to be said for at least significant uniform blocks in the liturgy - not so much as to avoid heresy (which, in a healthy unified church, wouldn't be so hard to exclude from worship even without a fixed liturgy), but to avoid the pressure of tyrannical governments and to lend for trans-linguistic worship.

    I think the first is a more potent consideration than the latter. I have to say, even after familiarizing myself with the general contours of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, I've had experiences of complete and utter confoundedness in Orthodox churches in Athens (and even, to an extent, Mount Athos - but nothing was as bad as Athens). So I'm skeptical that a fixed liturgy is either a necessary or a sufficient means toward trans-linguistic worship - though some elements there could help.

    That's good food for thought. I do think, though, that we have to find a path that allows us to achieve those goals without inherently privileging the creative work of earlier saints over the creative work of current saints, especially not to the exclusion of the latter.
    "The Jesus Christ who saves sinners is the same Christ who beckons his followers to serious use of their minds for serious explorations of the world." - Mark Noll

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  4. #13
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB DoulosChristou View Post
    Those are good points. Perhaps there is something to be said for at least significant uniform blocks in the liturgy - not so much as to avoid heresy (which, in a healthy unified church, wouldn't be so hard to exclude from worship even without a fixed liturgy), but to avoid the pressure of tyrannical governments and to lend for trans-linguistic worship.

    I think the first is a more potent consideration than the latter.
    Oh, I'd much rather worship in the vernacular I understand; it's not so much trans-linguistic worship I value so much as trans-linguistic unity.
    I have to say, even after familiarizing myself with the general contours of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, I've had experiences of complete and utter confoundedness in Orthodox churches in Athens (and even, to an extent, Mount Athos - but nothing was as bad as Athens). So I'm skeptical that a fixed liturgy is either a necessary or a sufficient means toward trans-linguistic worship - though some elements there could help.
    Well, the Divine Liturgy of St. James is not typical Orthodoxy (and some would argue that it is not Orthodox); I've never experienced it myself, though I'd be interested in doing so.
    That's good food for thought. I do think, though, that we have to find a path that allows us to achieve those goals without inherently privileging the creative work of earlier saints over the creative work of current saints, especially not to the exclusion of the latter.
    New work is still being created in Orthodoxy, even if it's within traditional categories. When a saint is canonized, a service is written to commemorate them, and there are quite a few services recently written for, e.g., pre-schism English saints. St. John of Kronstadt, from the 20th century, is widely commemorated. St. Nectarios of Aegina's Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride, also from the last century, is a quite popular hymn to the Theotokos.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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  5. #14
    tWebber JB DoulosChristou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Oh, I'd much rather worship in the vernacular I understand; it's not so much trans-linguistic worship I value so much as trans-linguistic unity.
    Well, right - I think we can all agree to that. But you are right that it certainly is valuable to know that there's unity, and be able to practically worship together, across linguistic barriers; and I'll agree that fixed liturgical elements are sometimes helpful in doing that, even if they may not be the only way to achieve it and even if they aren't always successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bag Pig View Post
    Well, the Divine Liturgy of St. James is not typical Orthodoxy (and some would argue that it is not Orthodox); I've never experienced it myself, though I'd be interested in doing so.
    Woops, that one's my bad; I meant to say "the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom."

    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    New work is still being created in Orthodoxy, even if it's within traditional categories. When a saint is canonized, a service is written to commemorate them, and there are quite a few services recently written for, e.g., pre-schism English saints. St. John of Kronstadt, from the 20th century, is widely commemorated. St. Nectarios of Aegina's Rejoice, O Unwedded Bride, also from the last century, is a quite popular hymn to the Theotokos.
    Okay, fair point - it isn't as though literally nothing new is being written.

    That said, it seems more restricted in form and style, and less innovative in theological expression (which is both a pro (as you were right to note re: the prospect of heterodox and indeed heretical output (even if initially inadvertent)) and a con), than one might have found in the apostolic era, or (sometimes) at the missionary frontier of church expansion in later eras, and than one might hope to find in a reunified church.
    "The Jesus Christ who saves sinners is the same Christ who beckons his followers to serious use of their minds for serious explorations of the world." - Mark Noll

    "It cannot be that the people should grow in grace unless they give themselves to reading." - John Wesley

    "Wherever men are still theological, there is still some chance of their being logical." - G. K. Chesterton

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    This is going to sound harsh but I really don't mean it that way.

    If you'd like to know why I wouldn't be interested in Reformational Catholicism it would be the preceding debate (polite as it may be) about the liturgy.
    I've no problem with people using this tool or having a preference but clearly going without the liturgy of some sort is out of the question.

    Whatever specific liturgy you settle upon it cannot be supported as authoritative or correct from Scripture.
    Scripture doesn't ban having a preference or following certain forms which sets you free to pick one but the Scripture also frees me to deny them all.

    If 'unity' is having the same preferences then it isn't going to happen.
    If 'unity' is adoring Jesus Christ than all those interested in that sort of 'unity' already have it.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  7. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
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    Let me ask this question in all seriousness: Is the kind of unity the author is pursuing even Scriptural?
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  9. Amen Jedidiah, Cow Poke amen'd this post.
  10. #17
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    Let me ask this question in all seriousness: Is the kind of unity the author is pursuing even Scriptural?
    That would rather depend on what you mean by "Scriptural" - which is, indeed, part of the problem. It can mean anything from "explicitly enjoined in Scripture" to "not incompatible with Scripture."
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    That would rather depend on what you mean by "Scriptural" - which is, indeed, part of the problem. It can mean anything from "explicitly enjoined in Scripture" to "not incompatible with Scripture."
    Right.

    I'd agree that the veneration of icons isn't forbidden in Scripture (1) and so I must accept that as a part of your worship or tradition.
    In the same vein I would hope that you'd understand that to me an icon is nothing more than kindling.

    Our unity isn't in the form of worship but the object of our worship.

    So I get hives when someone tries to change the form of my worship, in the name of unity, just as you'd develop a rash if I was made curator of a large collection of icons.
    I think we can share a very high degree of unity while having different denominational affiliations.

    I don't think having the same liturgy is a scriptural pursuit.





    NOTES
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1: You know I have my doubts about it actually being veneration but I'll take your word on it for the sake of this discussion.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  12. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  13. #19
    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    I think we can agree that all Presbyterians are going straight to the hot place.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  14. #20
    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    I'm sorry if I killed the thread.
    If anyone needs me I'll be in the corner thinking about what I've done here.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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