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Thread: The End of Protestantism...?

  1. #21
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I'm sorry if I killed the thread.
    If anyone needs me I'll be in the corner thinking about what I've done here.
    I'll be padlocking your little exercise wheel while you sit and think what you've done young man, er gerbil.

    I'm always still in trouble again

  2. #22
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I think we can agree that all Presbyterians are going straight to the hot place.
    Which is why so many of them smoke! They're getting used to the smell.






    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  3. #23
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    I think we can agree that all Presbyterians are going straight to the hot place.
    I think I'm gonna have to cancel one of my subscriptions, I seem to be getting the exact same content from you both here and on FB. I guess even you aren't immune to the age of clickbait and recycled content.
    "But Lord, in your name did we not vote Democrat, and in your name did we not attend many Bernie rallies?" ~ Zymologist

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  4. #24
    tWebber Meh Gerbil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    I think I'm gonna have to cancel one of my subscriptions, I seem to be getting the exact same content from you both here and on FB. I guess even you aren't immune to the age of clickbait and recycled content.
    Maybe you're like Grateful Dead fans - following the band from venue to venue.
    Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

  5. #25
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    Maybe you're like Grateful Dead fans - following the band from venue to venue.
    I saw a Grateful Dead concert many years ago. I even remember bits and pieces of it.

    I'm always still in trouble again

  6. #26
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    I saw a Grateful Dead concert many years ago. I even remember bits and pieces of it.
    If you can remember the 60's, you didn't really experience them. Hence, the bits and pieces?

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  7. #27
    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB DoulosChristou View Post
    Hi, everybody! ...

    ... (Naturally, our Roman Catholic and Orthodox friends will look somewhat askance at some of Leithart's proposals vis-a-vis their groups, for fairly traditional reasons. I'd like, if possible, for this discussion not to lapse into a rehash of that.) For those who don't have the book, Leithart has already sketched some of these ideas in some freely available articles:



    Is Leithart thinking rightly about the current state of the church?
    Is his vision for a future Reformational Catholic Church a good and healthy one?
    Is it a feasible hope?
    Quote Originally Posted by JB DoulosChristou View Post
    Leithart's work is explicitly addressed to "theologically conservative evangelical Protestant churches"; he suspects that Roman Catholics may be less ready to really receive what he has to say. ...
    I don't want to derail an interesting thread by focusing too much on a parenthetical comment. That said, I don't think most Roman Catholics would have any objections to Reformational Catholicism as described in the two linked articles in the initial post. I think most would welcome Leithart's focus on greater respect for tradition and shared elements of the faith in common with Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism. Is there something additional in Leithart's book, not included in the two linked articles, that you or he thinks would be particularly objectionable to Catholics?

    From one of the linked articles by Leithart:

    "While he’s at it, the Reformational catholic might as well claim the upper-case “C.” Why should the Roman see have a monopoly on capitalization?"

    From an ecclesiological perspective, I am more liberal than most Catholics, perhaps (in other areas I am more conservative than many liberal Catholic theologoans), so I would encourage Reformational Catholics to consider not using an upper-case 'C' just as I encourage Roman Catholics to be much more appreciative of lower-case catholicism. True Christian community and action exists much more fundamentally at the local level. Universality of faith, practice, and communion cannot be imposed upon various local communions, and it would be pointless to even consider such an imposition of universal authority if there were not already an existing local Christian community.
    Last edited by robrecht; 10-29-2016 at 02:05 PM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

  8. #28
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    I don't think this idea has a meaningful future, nor should it.

    Since being born again in early 1980, I have been a member or frequent visitor at dozens of churches that would fit the common understanding of "theologically conservative Protestant evangelical."

    None have made a point of teaching any Creeds or Confessions.

    None have a formal "liturgy." Many have a routine "way of doing things," and would probably be a bit discomfited to think this could amount to a sort of de facto "liturgy."

    Most of them tend to regard "tradition" with some sense of suspicion and disdain. Many have problems with the word, "religion," as indicated by such sayings as "Christianity is not about religion, it's about relationship."

    All place a high emphasis on being "born again" as an event involving conscious volition and firmly reject the idea that babies can be baptized into the Kingdom.

    All practice "open Communion," in the sense that participation is not limited to members of a specific church or denomination. Any "born again" believer is welcome to partake, and no one is required to make any sort of public declaration to that effect before partaking.

    I can't imagine any of them yielding on any of those points even a little bit -- nor should they.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  9. Amen Meh Gerbil amen'd this post.
  10. #29
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meh Gerbil View Post
    That is agreeable to me and something I've seen in out in the wild - rare, but it does exist.
    That said, I have to wonder what distinguishes a 'Reformational Catholic' from a 'Protestant'.
    They sound like the same animal who has thrown off different sorts of evil to arrive at the same spot.
    ## And it is quite usual for Protestants to say they are Catholic - what they disclaim is being Papally Catholic. It is not rare for people to say they are "Reformed and catholic", or "catholic and Reformed".

    STM that Protestantism can survive the death of Protestantism in the West, perhaps not comfortably indeed, but easily enough. If Protestantism vanished utterly from the West, that would not in the slightest mean that Protestantism was no more. The death of Protestantism has been predicted before - why should current predictions be any more reliable than those that preceded them ?

  11. #30
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB DoulosChristou View Post
    Hi, everybody! I recently started reading Peter J. Leithart's new book The End of Protestantism: Pursuing Unity in a Fragmented Church. In it, he offers reflections on the need for the assorted Protestant confessions to be subsumed in a new "Reformational Catholicity," which is the church's future. I'd like to start a discussion here of the thoughts that Leithart is putting forward. (Naturally, our Roman Catholic and Orthodox friends will look somewhat askance at some of Leithart's proposals vis-a-vis their groups, for fairly traditional reasons. I'd like, if possible, for this discussion not to lapse into a rehash of that.) For those who don't have the book, Leithart has already sketched some of these ideas in some freely available articles:



    Is Leithart thinking rightly about the current state of the church?
    Is his vision for a future Reformational Catholic Church a good and healthy one?
    Is it a feasible hope?
    Protestantism will survive, even if the vast majority of Protestants cease to be Protestant. People have been consigning it to the grave for at least 200 years. But it always manages to survive. Even if the US and Europe come to be plunged into darkest night, Protestantism can thrive elsewhere. If I were a Protestant, I would have no fears whatever for its survival. God is Faithful, even if Protestants lack faith in Him. As for feasible hopes, God is not restricted by those - the Cross shows that. The 'defeat' of the Cross was how God brought about victory over sin, death, hell and the devil.

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