What are the common eschatological views around the world?

[eschaton]

If you get a chance you should check out the Boyd paper. He makes a very good case that they did contradict themselves, but not in the negative connotation that we associate with the word; rather, they were not attempting to be systematic.

Thanks. Where would I find the Boyd paper?

[TyRockwell]

Not much I can really respond to here although I am confident that God will eventually open your eyes to all this deception.

There's not much you can say because my post totally CRUSHED your argument. So you resort to calling it a 'deception.' YOU are decieved.

If I were you I would lay off the eschatological speculation & TBN for a while and soberly read the gospels and epistles over and over until every verse makes sense and fits together in a coherent holistic manner.

Tim, I read the Bible soberly every day, almost. I understand it. It is more true than you know. You keep rationalizing away the message of the Bible for the cause of your snobbish 'superiority.'
I surely don't get my eschatology from TBN!

Then perhaps you may have cultivated the necessary discretion [my add, "wisdom and prudence"] to go to step B. (BTW I wouldn't bother with the last few verses of Mark at this stage as they were not in the original text anyhow).

The last few verses of Mark agree with things Jesus taught and commanded that his disciples do. IF they were added, but it was by someone who knew what Jesus said. For example:
Matthew 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
And
Luke 10:8. "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
9. "And heal the sick who are there, and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
Then notice verses 16 through 21:
16. "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.''
17. Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.''
18. And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19. "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20. "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.''
21. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

You must be so proud to be "the wise and prudent"! And discreet:

Thats the funny thing about discretion. With it you can get truth from everything and anyone and without it you are blinded from truth even when reading from the very source of objective truth itself; the bible.

Which surely describes you. It is so evident that YOU do not believe the word, because you don't want to apply its face value message, it is discomfiting to your 'wisdom and prudence,' so you rationalize it for your 'comfort' as to what you want to believe.

[timspong]

There's not much you can say because my post totally CRUSHED your argument. So you resort to calling it a 'deception.' YOU are decieved.


Tim, I read the Bible soberly every day, almost. I understand it. It is more true than you know. You keep rationalizing away the message of the Bible for the cause of your snobbish 'superiority.'
I surely don't get my eschatology from TBN!


The last few verses of Mark agree with things Jesus taught and commanded that his disciples do. IF they were added, but it was by someone who knew what Jesus said. For example:
Matthew 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
8. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."
And
Luke 10:8. "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
9. "And heal the sick who are there, and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
Then notice verses 16 through 21:
16. "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.''
17. Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.''
18. And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19. "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20. "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.''
21. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

You must be so proud to be "the wise and prudent"! And discreet:



Which surely describes you. It is so evident that YOU do not believe the word, because you don't want to apply its face value message, it is discomfiting to your 'wisdom and prudence,' so you rationalize it for your 'comfort' as to what you want to believe.

Ty I know I sound very arrogant but "snobby"? where did that come from? However, that is neither here nor there. I understand perfectly where you are coming from and was there myself not so long ago. I don't expect you to believe a word I say, however I think I have achieved all I have set out to do and that is to place a bug in your ear. I know you are very stubborn in your beliefs as that has been attested to many times before on Tweb. No amount of argumentation will sway you from your doctrine. This is not always a good thing! There are many things that I have believed with all my being that turned out to be false and for me it took a pretty severe tragedy to knock me to my senses.

As for you thinking you crushed me with your argument, if it makes you feel any better then go for it.

[TyRockwell]

Tim,
I did crush your argument. I crush so many arguments on Tweb, because I speak and post the Word of God. His word renewed my mind. I have the mind of Christ.

So many arguments of my opposition have very little to no word of God as their basis. But the word of God makes my posts powerful and effective. Hebrews 4:12

I am sorry for your loss. I have experienced loss in my walk of faith too. But I didn't give up or decide that the word of God had to be modified to fit my experience. In addition, I expect more to be restored than I lost.

[timspong]

Tim,
I did crush your argument. I crush so many arguments on Tweb, because I speak and post the Word of God. His word renewed my mind. I have the mind of Christ.

So many arguments of my opposition have very little to no word of God as their basis. But the word of God makes my posts powerful and effective. Hebrews 4:12

I am sorry for your loss. I have experienced loss in my walk of faith too. But I didn't give up or decide that the word of God had to be modified to fit my experience. In addition, I expect more to be restored than I lost.

I hate to say this but your opinion about your performance here on Tweb is not shared by most people here. Most will probably see you being soundly defeated on many occasions, but also see you as never giving up no matter how much the evidence is stacked against you. Just because you see it a different way doesn't make it true.

While I admire your tenacity, your stubbornness and tendency for denial are not a healthy attributes for an imperfect christian (as we all are). We are always learning and sometimes one has to retrace his steps to get back on the right path. No amount of trying to hack it down with a machete is going to get you through unless you are willing to humble yourself many many times over.

The fact remains that our view of God must be modified to fit our "experience" in many cases, as that is the whole point in going through those experiences in the first place. God is shaping us into the men we are going to be and a huge part of that is for us to better understand who He is; to better discern His will; and to be more able to be obedient to that will.

Anyhow, enough said from me on this I think.

[TyRockwell]

I hate to say this but your opinion about your performance here on Tweb is not shared by most people here. Most will probably see you being soundly defeated on many occasions, but also see you as never giving up no matter how much the evidence is stacked against you. Just because you see it a different way doesn't make it true.

Just because many un-renewed minds think I was soundly defeated doesn't make them right. There are many who just read the posts that do not respond. I believe the Word of God goes into people's hearts and souls, their joints and marrow. It will change the minds of some.

While I admire your tenacity, your stubbornness and tendency for denial are not a healthy attributes for an imperfect christian (as we all are). We are always learning and sometimes one has to retrace his steps to get back on the right path.

Been there, done that. I'm at my place of belief because I changed my mind and my course. Too many of my opposers hold on to passed-down doctrine without questioning it. They are still where I used to be.

The fact remains that our view of God must be modified to fit our "experience" in many cases, as that is the whole point in going through those experiences in the first place.

That is your mistake. God is the same, and His word is what is supposed to change us, and not we change His Word. Sometimes experiences of trouble come like gravity, they are just there. But Jesus sed a greater law than gravity. The law of faith.

If you don't have an expectation of the Word's power or of God's intervention, you might be blocking the good that could come to change a circumstance, and you are left with a negative experience. Even should that happen, we don't give up or question the Word. We get up and learn and expect to do better.

God is shaping us into the men we are going to be and a huge part of that is for us to better understand who He is; to better discern His will; and to be more able to be obedient to that will.

Anyhow, enough said from me on this I think.

A big error that people make is to think that God's will is not already expressed in His Word. Or, they think God's will might be other than what He said.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Tim,
I did crush your argument. I crush so many arguments on Tweb, because I speak and post the Word of God. His word renewed my mind. I have the mind of Christ.

So many arguments of my opposition have very little to no word of God as their basis. But the word of God makes my posts powerful and effective. Hebrews 4:12

I am sorry for your loss. I have experienced loss in my walk of faith too. But I didn't give up or decide that the word of God had to be modified to fit my experience. In addition, I expect more to be restored than I lost.

You are a pompous clueless jackass.

[timspong]

Just because many un-renewed minds think I was soundly defeated doesn't make them right. There are many who just read the posts that do not respond. I believe the Word of God goes into people's hearts and souls, their joints and marrow. It will change the minds of some.


Been there, done that. I'm at my place of belief because I changed my mind and my course. Too many of my opposers hold on to passed-down doctrine without questioning it. They are still where I used to be.


That is your mistake. God is the same, and His word is what is supposed to change us, and not we change His Word. Sometimes experiences of trouble come like gravity, they are just there. But Jesus sed a greater law than gravity. The law of faith.

If you don't have an expectation of the Word's power or of God's intervention, you might be blocking the good that could come to change a circumstance, and you are left with a negative experience. Even should that happen, we don't give up or question the Word. We get up and learn and expect to do better.


A big error that people make is to think that God's will is not already expressed in His Word. Or, they think God's will might be other than what He said.

Of course God doesn't change and neither does scripture, however, like parables much of the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. It is therefore our interpretation that changes as we mature not the actual words themselves. I am constantly refining what I understand from scripture and my theology is in a constant state of flux. You have dug your heals into a theological position and IMO it is far too premature for something that is not an essential tenet of the faith.

Just look at your defending statement when I said that most people here think you are wrong. You implied that you have plenty of proponents but they just read and don't post anything. Don't you see how you are in denial?

The reason why most don't agree with you here is that most people here on Tweb have, at some point, been through a evangelical kindergarden church and have already experienced and moved on from what you are espousing. We know where you are coming from! We have been there, done that, and already have far too many t-shirts and bumper stickers.

I often liken theology to building ikea furniture. If you screw in the first screws too tightly as you start to put it together, the last pieces wont fit. No matter how much you deny that you have made a mistake.

Like working out the trajectory of shooting a space ship too the moon. If you get the angle slightly wrong at lift-off you will miss the moon by thousands of miles. However, like spacecraft we are able to make infinitesimal adjustments along the way to ensure we stay in the right trajectory. It seems you have jammed a steering lock on your controls at take off and are refusing to unlock it no matter how much people are warning you to re-evaluate the situation.

I know one thing for sure, the first step to maturity in Christ is humility and a realization of your fallibility.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Thanks. Where would I find the Boyd paper?

I got it from TREN (The Theological Research Network) which has a repository of unpublished thesis papers - not free but there is some great stuff there.

[eschaton]

Thanks for the info DD.

[TyRockwell]

dizzle,
Run along, now, little girl. Go play in the street.

[TyRockwell]

Of course God doesn't change and neither does scripture, however, like parables much of the bible can be interpreted in many different ways. It is therefore our interpretation that changes as we mature not the actual words themselves.

First, you acknowledge that God's Word does not change, and that as you mature, your interpretation changes. God's Word does not have many different meanings, nor do the parables. The reason you change your interpretation is that you are realizing this. This does not mean that the new interpretation you have is correct. It is just new to you.

I am constantly refining what I understand from scripture and my theology is in a constant state of flux. You have dug your heals into a theological position and IMO it is far too premature for something that is not an essential tenet of the faith.

You assume you know me, and that I haven't grown or matured, changing as I learn. You are not better than I am. I've learned, and grown. Some things that years ago I was sure of, have now become known to me as wrong interpretations. I'm still learning, and gaining greater understanding. About a dozen posts back I showed you the imagery of Jeremiah 25 and that it is reflected in many of the same words in Revelation 14 and 18 in reference to Babylon. It was a new discovery just a couple of weeks ago.

Some TV prophecy teacher was using Jeremiah 25 to say that the Iraq war was the fulfillment of Babylon (Iraq) made a desolation, and no one living there anymore relating that to refugees who have fled from combat. In my spirit I knew right away that his was the wrong interpretation. As I read Jeremiah 25, though I had read it many times before, I then noticed the words that are also in Revelation. God shows me things like this often. Though you may disagree, I'm not 'dug in' to a theological position that was all figured out for me by someone else's well intended, though mistaken interpretations.

Just look at your defending statement when I said that most people here think you are wrong. You implied that you have plenty of proponents but they just read and don't post anything. Don't you see how you are in denial?

I don't post for the approval of men, but to let others have the benefit of a fresh perspective that lets people see that the 'dug in' theological positions are the old ones, usually, and there are valid, revealed interpretations still being made known by the Lord, from the Bible, that are more applicable to the world we are living in than what scholars knew decades or centuries before now.

The reason why most don't agree with you here is that most people here on Tweb have, at some point, been through a evangelical kindergarden church and have already experienced and moved on from what you are espousing. We know where you are coming from! We have been there, done that, and already have far too many t-shirts and bumper stickers.

I was in evangelical kindergarten church more than four decades ago. I've learned that closed-in communities and schools of thought keep perpetuating guessed at interpretations and traditional teachings, and are resistant to learning and changing. They have a loyalty to a teacher or tradition that inhibits them from a willingness to consider other views. I have been there. I know the pressure to give the acceptable answers, the 'approved' message. It has been a long rewarding journey into a freedom and confidence of walking with the Lord, letting Him be the teacher.

I know one thing for sure, the first step to maturity in Christ is humility and a realization of your fallibility.

Yesterday, I took a strong stance, speaking boldly against your, and other's attacks, and your own pressumptions of victory. But I humble myself to the Lord, not to you or the rest of you who are self-confident and don't realize how not humble you are. I am fallible. Don't be so sure your house of cards is settled truth.

[timspong]

Don't be so sure your house of cards is settled truth.

I have no doubt as to the fallibility of my "house of cards". I expect to see many things very differently to the way I view them now, Lord willing. However, one does not need a settled truth to be discerning. I can clearly see the path I have travelled down and all the wrong turns I have made in the past. This experience in the maturing process in concert with a maturing understanding of scripture is all that is needed for discretion, not settled truth.

You keep making reference to us relying too much on the theological thoughts of the past and failing to look at the bible afresh for ourselves. I can categorically state that nothing I have studied has given me more growth in Christ and increased my discretionary skills more than my studies of church history and especially how doctrines have developed over the centuries.

There is nothing new under the sun and just about every new theological position has a forerunner somewhere in the history of the church albeit in a slightly different configuration. Every possible heresy has likewise been dealt with at some point in history.

If you divorce yourself from church history you are basically divorcing yourself from the church and are basically standing alone against a huge onslaught of all kinds of deception and heresy. You cannot possibly defend yourself with only yourself and the bible. The bible is more than up to the task but you are not. The church is a body and a individual christian that stands outside the body is an easy target. Even if you have a church, if that church has rejected the body that church is similarly no better off than an individual who has rejected the body.

[TyRockwell]

I have no doubt as to the fallibility of my "house of cards". I expect to see many things very differently to the way I view them now, Lord willing.

Good! That's a start.

However, one does not need a settled truth to be discerning. I can clearly see the path I have travelled down and all the wrong turns I have made in the past. This experience in the maturing process in concert with a maturing understanding of scripture is all that is needed for discretion, not settled truth.

Discernment and discretion based on commentaries are the problem. Do you realize you just said, "One does not need a settled truth?" Its clear that there is much more settled truth than you accept. Settled truth needs to rule over discernment.
2nd Cor. 10:12. We dare not take ourselves too seriously or compare ourselves with those people who pat themselves on the back. When they use themselves to measure by, and compare themselves with themselves, they are foolish. Simple English Bible

12. For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. New King James Version

You keep making reference to us relying too much on the theological thoughts of the past and failing to look at the bible afresh for ourselves. I can categorically state that nothing I have studied has given me more growth in Christ and increased my discretionary skills more than my studies of church history and especially how doctrines have developed over the centuries.

It would be better to have a little commentary, and a lot more Bible. See above.

You keep trying to marginalize me, insisting that I can't know if I didn't learn what you learned. I am not unaware of the major points you make mention of. I've been in the Church long enough to have had some contact with many of the things you have studied. I'm not cut off from history. I've learned much history from Study Bibles and some commentaries, but I DON'T CITE them, I cite scripture. Its like when people attack ministers they don't like, or they want to discredit, I DON'T CITE NAMES. I cite scripture. That doesn't make me ignorant of what people have said.

There is nothing new under the sun and just about every new theological position has a forerunner somewhere in the history of the church albeit in a slightly different configuration. Every possible heresy has likewise been dealt with at some point in history.

You have too much confidence in history. "Every possible heresy?" Do you think you are safe from deception because of the history of the church?

If you divorce yourself from church history you are basically divorcing yourself from the church and are basically standing alone against a huge onslaught of all kinds of deception and heresy. You cannot possibly defend yourself with only yourself and the bible. The bible is more than up to the task but you are not.

You love to make insinuations and imply innuendos. If the Bible is up to a task, then I am up to a task. "Nothing is impossible to him who believes," the wisest Man said.

The church is a body and a individual christian that stands outside the body is an easy target. Even if you have a church, if that church has rejected the body that church is similarly no better off than an individual who has rejected the body.

Don't imply that I am divorced from church history. Don't think that I am 'outside the body.' I am in a church body, I assemble regularly, even spontaneously, throughout the week. I am a member in particular of the Body of Christ, and He is my Head. It sounds like you trust your own head rather than The Head, who is Christ.

[Silver Hand]

Good! That's a start.

One must wonder when you will see things differently (if ever)...

Discernment and discretion based on commentaries are the problem.

Only if said commentaries are viewed as authoritative (ie; The Catholic Catechism, Watchtower publications, etc.) and used to butcher the meaning of scripture.

Commentaries are (generally) written by intelligent men with a valid insight worth considering.

2nd Cor. 10:12.For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. New King James Version

Ty, take this verse to heart. Because it's warning Timspong and others about people like you. You commend yourself all the time for your delusions of eschatological prowess.

You have too much confidence in history. "Every possible heresy?" Do you think you are safe from deception because of the history of the church?

Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't. He's safer than you, as he has no private interpretations exclusive to himself.

Don't imply that I am divorced from church history. Don't think that I am 'outside the body.' I am in a church body, I assemble regularly, even spontaneously, throughout the week. I am a member in particular of the Body of Christ, and He is my Head. It sounds like you trust your own head rather than The Head, who is Christ.

Extract your head from your backside, Ty. And just because you attend a church, it doesn't make you immune to falling into error.