Cloning

[Mattmulligan]

Hi im new to this but am very interested to your views on human cloning. I myself consider that it is a very important area of research that must be further investigated. But is it right for religious people to condemn it and if so why?

[Ex Nihilo]

Hi im new to this but am very interested to your views on human cloning. I myself consider that it is a very important area of research that must be further investigated. But is it right for religious people to condemn it and if so why?

I don't think people should be playing God with these things.

Not to mention that I don't see a reason for it, there is nothing to be gained from it as far as I can tell.

[disciple100]

I don't think people should be playing God with these things.

Not to mention that I don't see a reason for it, there is nothing to be gained from it as far as I can tell.

well, they already do it with animals, under the claim that we now don't have to worry about a food shortage. and now they are worried about replacing the failing organs of people. also they are growing human body parts like ears and noses on the backs of mice and cats. of course, there's always the sci-fi flip side of the coin where scientists are merely trying to become immortal. Ya know, the usual.

[Ex Nihilo]

well, they already do it with animals, under the claim that we now don't have to worry about a food shortage. and now they are worried about replacing the failing organs of people. also they are growing human body parts like ears and noses on the backs of mice and cats. of course, there's always the sci-fi flip side of the coin where scientists are merely trying to become immortal. Ya know, the usual.

lol, have you seen Idiocracy?

They basically make fun of the scientists for doing nothing constructive with their time.

I think personally I was too heavily influenced by the movie Gattaca to really be receptive to anything like this. When we start cloning people and messing with stuff like this, how far are we from Hitler's vision of the eugenic "perfect society"?

[CodewordConduit]

I know that many Christians believe that the specific fusion of a human sperm and human egg results in a spirit being created.

If a person was cloned solely from the adult tissue of one individual (no male-female conception type thing) - where would that place the acquisition of a spirit... indeed would a clone have a spirit?

[disciple100]

I know that many Christians believe that the specific fusion of a human sperm and human egg results in a spirit being created.

If a person was cloned solely from the adult tissue of one individual (no male-female conception type thing) - where would that place the acquisition of a spirit... indeed would a clone have a spirit?

Honestly, I don't really have a clue. My BEST guess would be something like in "The 6th Day". Obviously, the cloning of physical bodies does not necessarily mean that different spirits can't inhabit them. Then of course there's that movie "Bicentennial Man", and the whole 'is it possible for a machine to have a soul?' bit.

Hopefully God doesn't allow cloning to get that far so we don't have to find out. But He might do that just to see how we handle that type of ethical and moral dilemma.

[Mattmulligan]

Originally posted by disciple100
well, they already do it with animals, under the claim that we now don't have to worry about a food shortage. and now they are worried about replacing the failing organs of people. also they are growing human body parts like ears and noses on the backs of mice and cats. of course, there's always the sci-fi flip side of the coin where scientists are merely trying to become immortal. Ya know, the usual.

I find it hard to argue against the point that growing organs for patients is beneficial, although i suppose you could argue that if we regard a clone as human then harvest its organs it would be strange to say the least. But is it not better they experiment on animals rather than creating people with extra limbs and such?

[disciple100]

Sometimes when you wonder how far you need to go before you reach the point where something poses a moral and/or ethical dilemma, that's where we should probably stop. Some people don't like the idea of using animals to grow body parts.No doubt growing an ear on your back is an odd, if not unpleasant experiece. I'm sure there is a better way to go about it myself.

It's kind of like the whole stem cell thing. Some scientists had no qualms at all with harvesting embryos to make stem cells, but other people did. And now Japanese scientists have found out a way to make stem cells from skin cells. See what happens when you push for a better way?

Of course, I'm no scientist and I don't know how far we are in the current fields of study.

[CodewordConduit]

Honestly, I don't really have a clue. My BEST guess would be something like in "The 6th Day". Obviously, the cloning of physical bodies does not necessarily mean that different spirits can't inhabit them. Then of course there's that movie "Bicentennial Man", and the whole 'is it possible for a machine to have a soul?' bit.

Hopefully God doesn't allow cloning to get that far so we don't have to find out. But He might do that just to see how we handle that type of ethical and moral dilemma.

Yes fair enough, but if a human clone was created - would God create a spirit for them too? If so, at what point in its development?

If not, and the clone does not have a human spirit - well it wouldn't be accountable before God would it? For sin etc. When it died it would do as the animals do and decompose, surely?

If a woman had a clone growing inside of her and wanted an abortion, wouldn't it be a complete non-issue if the clone has no spirit?

These are obviously very hypothetical questions - I'm just interested in your perspective

Cheers

Sarah

[phase]

Who says that they haven't been closet cloning for decades? A clone would be nice replacement for the antichrist (if he does or will exist) when he receives a fatal head wound.

[technomage]

If one believes in the existence of "spirit" or "soul," however defined, then one's theology defines how the "spirit or soul" inhabits the body. However, on a more practical level, the finished result of cloning is not a grown organism, but an embryo: the embryo is then implanted into a uterus and must go through the normal 9 month (for humans) gestation.

If "spirit" or "soul" exists, then it would seem to me that the specifics of "egg meets sperm" would not necessarily apply.

[technomage]

Who says that they haven't been closet cloning for decades? A clone would be nice replacement for the antichrist (if he does or will exist) when he receives a fatal head wound.

Put down the LaHaye books--they're harmful to your critical thinking skills.

[CodewordConduit]

If one believes in the existence of "spirit" or "soul," however defined, then one's theology defines how the "spirit or soul" inhabits the body. However, on a more practical level, the finished result of cloning is not a grown organism, but an embryo: the embryo is then implanted into a uterus and must go through the normal 9 month (for humans) gestation.

If "spirit" or "soul" exists, then it would seem to me that the specifics of "egg meets sperm" would not necessarily apply.

Right so you reckon the spirit (hypothetically, if you're not theistic) is not a product of conception, but implantation?

[CodewordConduit]

Who says that they haven't been closet cloning for decades? A clone would be nice replacement for the antichrist (if he does or will exist) when he receives a fatal head wound.

Oooooh I read those books too!

My dad says stuff like this, and I thought he was the only one, bless 'im.

[technomage]

Right so you reckon the spirit (hypothetically, if you're not theistic) is not a product of conception, but implantation?

I am a theist, but (I hope) a fairly practical one. If such a thing as soul or spirit exists, I know nothing about it.

That being said--since we're speaking hypothetically--it depends, I guess, upon the theology of the person asserting the claim. If they say it's implanted, cool--I don't know how they would propose to verify such a claim.