Q on Orthodox view of non-Orthodox Christian churches

[Dracula Girl]

So I'm reading this site, http://conversiaddominum.blogspot.co...e-you-not.html, and I saw this in a comment:

Bottomline: I think I became Catholic and not Orthodox because it was easier for me to affirm Catholic ecclesiology, with its recognition of the Orthodox Churches as authentic particular Churches, than for me to accept the Orthodox Church that she, and she alone, is the true and exclusive Church of Jesus Christ.

And also this in part of another comment by someone who agrees with the above quote,

I would love to celebrate the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, I would love to be able to pray as Orthodox--most of the Orthodox practices I'm right on board with--but I have trouble with rejecting my churches as outside the Church.

So what exactly is the Eastern Orthodox view of us non-Orthodox Christians? Are we not saved because we are not part of the one true church? Is there any kind of invisible church in EO theology?

[Jawa Man]

So what exactly is the Eastern Orthodox view of us non-Orthodox Christians? Are we not saved because we are not part of the one true church? Is there any kind of invisible church in EO theology?

In the Protestant world, being in the Church practically means the same thing as having salvation. In Orthodoxy, these are not the same thing. We have many saints who were killed as catechumens, died with improper baptism, or even were a part of heretical groups. For example, one of the most popular saints among monastics is St. Isaac the Syrian, who was a member of the Nestorian Church of the East. At the same time, the Orthodox Church only regards itself as the Church founded by Jesus Christ, viewing non-Orthodox Christians as outside of that Church.

As for your other question: No, there is no concept of the invisible Church historically in Orthodoxy, though some modern theologians seem to be warming up to the idea (and not without ruffling some feathers!) that some Christians may be unconsciously and supernaturally united to the Church. A passage cited to defend this is the story about Cornelius the centurion in the book of Acts, who receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. I'm not aware of any Church fathers deriving a doctrine of being invisibly linked to the Church from this; Fr. Seraphim Rose, a popular American not-yet-canonized saint, said that this passage only shows that God does work outside the bounds of the Church for the purposes of bringing people into it the correct way, so, even after Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, he was still baptized.

Here is a metaphor which might make more sense: the Orthodox Church is like a tool belt (each tool being a sacrament or Church service, etc.) that has all you need to build the best house you can. If you don't use them, of course, you get nothing. But if you do, you have amazing potential. A Protestant may have a similar belt by virtue of believing in Christ, but he has less tools; he may be able to build a house, but it will be harder for him. However, many Protestants despite this use their fewer tools to greater effect than the Orthodox who use their many. I hope this helps.

[furay]

A Protestant may have a similar belt by virtue of believing in Christ, but he has less tools; he may be able to build a house, but it will be harder for him. However, many Protestants despite this use their fewer tools to greater effect than the Orthodox who use their many. I hope this helps.

Interesting analogy. Let's see what the Holy Scriptures have to say:

Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

The Protestants clamor out "Lord, Lord!" yet their house is built on sand, and great indeed will be their fall on the Day of Judgment. No matter how many tools they have in that ill-gotten belt of theirs, they have no foundation stone to structure their house on. Kyrie Eleison.

[Jawa Man]

Hi furay. First let me point out, for the benefit of readers, that your views are hardly mainstream in Catholicism - the same catechumens and heterodox that are saints in Orthodoxy are saints in Catholicism. In fact, Pope John Paul II had admiration for Protestant martyrs who were killed by the Catholic Counter-Reformation.

The Protestants clamor out "Lord, Lord!" yet their house is built on sand, and great indeed will be their fall on the Day of Judgment. No matter how many tools they have in that ill-gotten belt of theirs, they have no foundation stone to structure their house on. Kyrie Eleison.

The quote says nothing about Protestants or even religious groups in general; it is speaking about every individual who does works in God's name but does not love God.

[furay]

Hi furay. First let me point out, for the benefit of readers, that your views are hardly mainstream in Catholicism

My views are taken from the fathers, saints, popes, and medievals throughout 2,000 years of Catholic history - if that is not "mainstream", what is?

In fact, Pope John Paul II had admiration for Protestant martyrs who were killed by the Catholic Counter-Reformation.

It also appears that the late Holy Father kissed a copy of the Koran, am I to imitate this behavior as well? There is no such thing as a protestant martyr in a true sense, for a martyr is a witness to the true faith, something the protestants do not possess.

The quote says nothing about Protestants or even religious groups in general; it is speaking about every individual who does works in God's name but does not love God.

How does one love God Whom he does not see, when he does not love his neighbor whom he does see? Or rather, how can one love the Good God, when he persecutes and despises His Holy Body on earth? Such a thing is impossible!

There will no doubt be some saved who do not go by the title Catholic, for they do this out of ignorance, but surely no one will be saved because of their Protestantism, only in spite of it.

[phase]

Met a man on the street the other day. We started talking and then he says he is a Christian. My surprised response was, "Me too." After a couple of hours of conversation during which he stated that he was a Catholic and proceeded to explain different things. He broke down the word Protest ant and explained it to me. During all this time he never, never put down the Protestant faith and even pointed out a few mistakes the the Catholic church has made in the past. Humans make mistakes. I left with a new found respect for Catholicism. I'm not Catholic nor do I expect to be one, however do not have an erroneous or nasty attitude about them. He would have lost me the moment he started throwing stones.

[furay]

Yeah, who cares about saving souls as long as people are not offended? St Paul is surely horrified.

[mostlyharmless]

My views are taken from the fathers, saints, popes, and medievals throughout 2,000 years of Catholic history - if that is not "mainstream", what is?

There really isn't a lot of difference between RC and EO views of those outside of their churches as they use the same sources to determine doctrine. The OC prefers to say less about it which is why some people like the nice things the RCC officially says about other churches.

It is unfortunate that some people think that saying there are 'authentic particular churches' somehow means that the RCC believes it is ok to reject being in communion with the RCC.

There will no doubt be some saved who do not go by the title Catholic, for they do this out of ignorance, but surely no one will be saved because of their Protestantism, only in spite of it.

Unfortunately God has not made it abundantly clear on which church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church so there will always be those who in good conscience are outside it. We can only pray that the church will be truly one as Christ did so that the world is clear on where to turn for the healing of their souls.

We know that Christ is especially present in the true church through sacraments but it is also true that Christ as the Word, Wisdom and Power of the God is not absent or far from anyone in the world. This means that those outside the church can have a true relationship with Christ and it has always been so, before His incarnation and after it.

Blessings

[Rdr. Arsenios]

[QUOTE=Palinator;2613839]
I saw this in a comment:

Bottomline: I think I became Catholic and not Orthodox because it was easier for me to
affirm Catholic ecclesiology, with its recognition of the Orthodox Churches as authentic
particular Churches, than for me to accept the Orthodox Church that she, and she alone, is the
true and exclusive Church of Jesus Christ.

One can take either side - The other side is that there are TWO Churches that recognize the Orthodox Mysteries, both the Roman Church and the Orthodox Communion of Churches, and only ONE Church of these two that recognizes the Roman Sacraments. Personally, I would take the unanimous vote. The problem with Rome's view of the validity, as they call it, of the Orthodox Holy Mysteries, is that the Communion of Churches consecrating these very Mysteries denies Holy Communion with Rome because of Her heterodoxy, and especially her understanding of Papal Headship of the Body of Christ Who is Her Head...

The Orthodox, for their part, simply affirm the Creed which states plainly that we believe in ONE [holy, catholic and Apostolic] Church... And in this, we affirm the Church of the first thousand years as it was defined in the first 7 Ecumenical Councils, of which Rome took part... For Her part, Rome has departed from this in her Papal Authoritarian Headship of the Church, which has always been Conciliar, and not Papalist, in Her understanding of the defenfing of the Faith against error...

I would love to celebrate the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church, I would love to be able to pray as
Orthodox--most of the Orthodox practices I'm right on board with--but I have trouble with
rejecting my churches as outside the Church.

Two Orthodox monks I know were in a Catholic Eastern Rite monastery in California many years ago, and they were told to go to the Orthodox suppliers for their books on theology and the praxis of the Faith, and for their liturgical supplies, for their job was to be as like the Orthodox as they could, with the only difference being their communion with Rome... And they asked a good question: "Why should we try to be as LIKE the Orthodox as possible, when we can BE Orthodox?" And failing to find an answer to that question, they became Orthodox, and now labor for their salvation in a Russian monastery in the NW...

The problem with look-alikes is that they are just that... They are not "plugged in" to the Faith, which is what Communion brings... So there is no "juice" in the circuit of similarity, at least no Orthodox juice... Prayer is one feature of that juice... The Orthodox pray for Rome, and they pray for the Orthodox, but the results normally are to support the Orthodox prayers, and the Roman repentance from their [now many] errors... And without Orthodox prayer support for your prayers, you will not have the support needed for praying as Orthodox... In order to do that, one needs to BE Orthodox...

So what exactly is the Eastern Orthodox view of us non-Orthodox Christians? Are we not saved because we are not part of the one true church? Is there any kind of invisible church in EO theology?

This is the Cornelius Question... The Angel Gabriel himself came to him, and told him that his prayers had been received by the most high, and that he was a pious and holy man, and to see Peter, who had a vision as well... So here you have a man whose prayers resulted in a visit from the same Angel that announced the Annunciation to the Theotokos... And when they met, Peter saw the descent of the Holy Spirit upon Cornelius and his party, and because of this, was compelled to baptize him, for before this, he would not so baptize a gentile... And by this divine intervention, Cornelius and all his household, wife, sons, daughters, servants, and their children, were baptized... And by that baptism were joined to the True Vine as members of His Holy Body, the Church...

So was Cornelius, whose prayers got him a visit from the Most High by way of the chief messenger of the ranks of the Holy Angels, Gabriel himself, SAVED before baptism??? Was the presence of the Holy Spirit in him and his party, his reception by God, his salvation? And you can see that it happened this way for the sake of Peter's repentance from his wrong decision... So that Peter would start to baptize gentiles... This ONE descent of the Holy Spirit INAUGURATED Peter's repentance... THAT is why it happened as it did... Not because Cornelius and his entire household were "saved" and THEN baptized, but because Peter needed to understand the matter differently...

The same is true of Saul, who met Christ Himself, and was blinded by Him... Yet received his sight, was baptized, and given the Holy Spirit, by the Servant of God, Ananias, in Damascus...

The long and short of it all is that it is the Body of Christ who engrafts the faithful into the Body of Christ, and this established Communion... And without that Communion, one is cut off from the Body and Blood of our Lord... Salvation can still be found, according to deeds, at the last judgements, and according to the standards of a life outside the Communion of the Faithful, but the Grace of Communion, and the divinization of man in this earthly walk will suffer accordingly...

So yes, those who confess Christ as God are Christians, but those who are not Orthodox are not yet Communicants of the Body and Blood of our Lord that is to be found ONLY in Orthodoxy... And the good news is that they can become Orthodox, and both Rome and the Orthodox Communion of Churches affirm the Orthodox Holy Mysteries...

Arsenios

[Alucard]

One can take either side - The other side is that there are TWO Churches that recognize the Orthodox Mysteries, both the Roman Church and the Orthodox Communion of Churches, and only ONE Church of these two that recognizes the Roman Sacraments. Personally, I would take the unanimous vote.

This is something that went through my head as well - Orthodoxy is indeed the "safe" choice if one is deciding between it and Catholicism.

But, when it comes down to it, truth is not about pragmatism, and so we should take the question of which body we are to be a part of much more seriously.

[phase]

There really isn't a lot of difference between RC and EO views of those outside of their churches as they use the same sources to determine doctrine. The OC prefers to say less about it which is why some people like the nice things the RCC officially says about other churches.

It is unfortunate that some people think that saying there are 'authentic particular churches' somehow means that the RCC believes it is ok to reject being in communion with the RCC.



Unfortunately God has not made it abundantly clear on which church is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church so there will always be those who in good conscience are outside it. We can only pray that the church will be truly one as Christ did so that the world is clear on where to turn for the healing of their souls.

We know that Christ is especially present in the true church through sacraments but it is also true that Christ as the Word, Wisdom and Power of the God is not absent or far from anyone in the world. This means that those outside the church can have a true relationship with Christ and it has always been so, before His incarnation and after it.

Blessings

Sir, your words make me wonder if I should check out the Catholic church. The hate mongering words of some just push me away like it typically does with everyone else.
Oh, I don't know if this makes any difference in anything but I was baptized at birth a Catholic.

addition: Currently looking for a church and have attended a couple of services of one. Last night I spotted 2 wolves in positions of authority (if someone questions that my question is Can't you?) On the advise of my sister, who has walked the walk her total life, was not to expect a church to be perfect.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

This is something that went through my head as well - Orthodoxy is indeed the "safe" choice if one is deciding between it and Catholicism.

But, when it comes down to it, truth is not about pragmatism, and so we should take the question of which body we are to be a part of much more seriously.

My brother, Christ is Truth... To know, Biblically, is to DO... eg Adam KNEW Eve... And with Christ, to know is to BE... The Mystery of the Faith is Christ BEING IN US... And this is attained by grace through our DOING of the will of God...

Without the praxis, the DOING, the pragmatic of the Faith, there is nothing in it for us...

Arsenios

[mostlyharmless]

Sir, your words make me wonder if I should check out the Catholic church. The hate mongering words of some just push me away like it typically does with everyone else.

That's kindof amusing for me as someone who converted to Orthodox Christianity . I encourage you to pursue seeking a greater relationship with Christ in a church as Christianity is a communion of persons just as the Trinity is revealed as a communion of persons. Spend a lot of serious time in prayer as well as educating yourself on the beliefs of churches and don't be fainthearted. Faith has to be practiced to have meaning.

No comment on being baptised as a child in a RC church simply because it would derail the thread far too much.

Blessings

[phase]

That's kindof amusing for me as someone who converted to Orthodox Christianity . I encourage you to pursue seeking a greater relationship with Christ in a church as Christianity is a communion of persons just as the Trinity is revealed as a communion of persons. Spend a lot of serious time in prayer as well as educating yourself on the beliefs of churches and don't be fainthearted. Faith has to be practiced to have meaning.

No comment on being baptised as a child in a RC church simply because it would derail the thread far too much.

Blessings

Tks ... sounds like good advice. Faith grows daily. When one has always been one of the best at any chosen endeavor, it can be a little difficult to get out of the way and let Gods will be #1 and not my own. Am a little timid around people frequently, when I look in someones eyes - just see so much that it almost seems intrusive. Also am afraid that they will see the pain in mine. The pain is not for what has or has not happened to me, but that of the things I see. I imagine that only a few people will truly understand that statement.