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A question I have

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  • #1

    A question I have

    I was reading my devotional bible and in luke Jesus speaks of selling your cloak and buying a sword. He also said however that one who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

    In that case how are we to view things like self defense or serving in a war as christians?

    I know Jesus congratulated the soldier ( A centurion one of the most well trained soldiers in antiquity) and Paul uses boxers and soldiers in his metaphors on faith.

    I would like to know your thoughts.
    Personally I see no problem in self defense ormilitary service.
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  • #2
    I'm still working out exactly what I think about this but one possible way to interpret Jesus's statement is that he's describing how things are (like in Proverbs) and not actually saying never to use swords.

    I lean toward pacifism because the early church was almost entirely pacifist.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #3
      Makes sense.

      I am aa man who struggles with my temper at times. As a result I work and pray against hotheadedness. It has never helped me being hotheaded.

      I think both pacifism and patriotism are interesting. However I would never want my faith to degrade to bbe just a tool for an ideology.

      Thank you KG.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        I see "living by the sword" as very different from self defense. The former would be like Islam's raiding of caravan's during and eventually conquering of Arabia in Mohammed's time.

        Comment

        • #5
          The New Testament doesn't instruct us to live by the Law (one size fits all rules) but rather by the Spirit.

          This means that if a criminal breaks into your home and threatens you with death that the Spirit may instruct you to lay down your life OR the Spirit may instruct you to kick his [censored]. If you find yourself in that situation you don't want to be asking yourself a bunch of philosophical/theological hooey questions. What you'll need to be doing is asking the Spirit, "Lead me through this in the here and now."
          Actually YOU put Trump in the White House. He wouldn't have gotten 1% of the vote if it wasn't for the widespread spiritual and cultural devastation caused by progressive policies. There's no "this country" left with your immigration policies, your "allies" are worthless and even more suicidal than you are and democracy is a sick joke that I hope nobody ever thinks about repeating when the current order collapses. - Darth_Executor striking a conciliatory note in Civics 101

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          • #6
            Paul's main emphasis on soldiers was their discipline, courage, commitment... more than a few times they rescued or protected him... but he, especially to Timothy, was using the qualities I mentioned to tell Timothy "be like that".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment

            • #7
              In Jesus day there were robbers, bandits, wild animals about and as he told his followers to go and preach The Good News in the world they would need some kind of basic protection against such things, thus what he said.
              BU

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              Last edited by Jedidiah; 01-16-2018, 04:24 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                I was reading my devotional bible and in luke Jesus speaks of selling your cloak and buying a sword. He also said however that one who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

                In that case how are we to view things like self defense or serving in a war as christians?

                I know Jesus congratulated the soldier ( A centurion one of the most well trained soldiers in antiquity) and Paul uses boxers and soldiers in his metaphors on faith.

                I would like to know your thoughts.
                Personally I see no problem in self defense or military service.
                The context help understanding who and when etc..

                Jesus notes that when he sent them out in the past they lacked for nothing and he would have been on hand to help etc..

                But now as he was shortly to die things would change for them so now they would be going out into the world and the wilds in their preaching so they would need some protection maybe for wild animals and robbers etc..

                Regarding joining in national or international warfare say joining the Roman Pagan Legions as you pointed out that was totally a no no.

                Matthew 5:44
                However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                  Regarding joining in national or international warfare say joining the Roman Pagan Legions as you pointed out that was totally a no no.

                  Matthew 5:44
                  However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies

                  Matthew 5:44
                  "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

                  Your quote is fine, but your subsequent interpretation is less so. Other theologians do not agree so you do not have a clear "no no."
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                    I was reading my devotional bible and in luke Jesus speaks of selling your cloak and buying a sword. He also said however that one who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

                    In that case how are we to view things like self defense or serving in a war as christians?

                    I know Jesus congratulated the soldier ( A centurion one of the most well trained soldiers in antiquity) and Paul uses boxers and soldiers in his metaphors on faith.

                    I would like to know your thoughts.
                    Personally I see no problem in self defense ormilitary service.
                    So I come on Peter beating up Paul. Who am I suppose to love?



                    Both of them.

                    Now am I loving Paul by permitting Peter to beat up on him? Probably not. So I need to stop Peter. Do I love Peter by killing him? No. So when I stop Peter, I need to use the minimum force to do it.

                    Let's say, Peter is standing some distance away and he has shot Paul already and is shooting anyone he sees. Obviously, he hasn't seen me yet. I could rush him but there's enough open space that he would shot me before I reached him. Apparently, I have to pull out my gun and shot him - trying to just disable but I could kill him. Yet it does seem loving to other potential victims to try and loving to Peter that I didn't try to kill him.

                    You could extend this to nations. No amount of peaceful protest would have stopped Nazi German aggression. It took a lot of force to bring that to a halt. But in some ways that seems a more loving response to the world than standing aside and let them do what they wanted.

                    I respect pacifist for their position and for saying don't go for the violent solution. Unfortunately in this sinful world, sometimes a violent solution is the best solution. It should be the last resort and the minimum required.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      Matthew 5:44
                      "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

                      Your quote is fine, but your subsequent interpretation is less so. Other theologians do not agree so you do not have a clear "no no."
                      John 13:34, 35
                      I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one anotherIF

                      A big "IF"!
                      War = no love
                      A commandment must be followed.
                      No love no discipleship!
                      BU

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                        John 13:34, 35
                        I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, you also love one anotherIF

                        A big "IF"!
                        War = no love
                        A commandment must be followed.
                        No love no discipleship!
                        BU
                        To whom was He speaking?



                        Well, lookie there, He was talking to His disciples, about "one another".
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                          The context help understanding who and when etc..

                          Jesus notes that when he sent them out in the past they lacked for nothing and he would have been on hand to help etc..

                          But now as he was shortly to die things would change for them so now they would be going out into the world and the wilds in their preaching so they would need some protection maybe for wild animals and robbers etc..

                          Regarding joining in national or international warfare say joining the Roman Pagan Legions as you pointed out that was totally a no no.

                          Matthew 5:44
                          However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies

                          Moderator Notice

                          You are not authorized to post in a Christian only forum. Please do not do it again.

                          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.



                          Moderator Notice

                          Notice to myself and others - do not respond BU in this forum please

                          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TheWall View Post
                            I was reading my devotional bible and in luke Jesus speaks of selling your cloak and buying a sword. He also said however that one who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

                            In that case how are we to view things like self defense or serving in a war as christians?

                            I know Jesus congratulated the soldier ( A centurion one of the most well trained soldiers in antiquity) and Paul uses boxers and soldiers in his metaphors on faith.

                            I would like to know your thoughts.
                            Personally I see no problem in self defense ormilitary service.

                            Comment

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