Acceptance of Invitation from Mr. Holding

[Temp2009]

I hope this is the correct forum to post in.

I was told by Mr. Holding in an automated response to an email that I had possibly won some sort of prize - The Screwball Award - and was invited to greet him here. You shall judge.

My email was as follows:

Sir:

On your web page pertaining to the Sound Doctrine Church (http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sounddoc.html) I encountered the following snippet:

---> "5/23/06 -- One of my favorite canards is the one about Luke 14:26, and it is on this one that SDC once again pulls out the hyper-fundamentalism:
Rather than letting Scripture define Scripture and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us into full understanding and obedience, we use Scripture to undermine Scripture. The end result is that, under the guise of "correct interpretation," the Word of God is robbed of its power and is rendered all but meaningless.
This is the sort of epistemology that may as well lead to Mormonism" <---

What the? If you didn't get the email, Mormons are as Christian as Two-Seed-In-The-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists or Brethren Church of Christ (Reformed Dunkers). You can find such a variety of doctrine, practice and scriptural exegesis in the splinters of "mainstream Christianity" as to make any distinction between people based on how they think the Savior looks, or where you seek inspiration, meaningless.

Mormons worship Christ, and Christ only. Not Joseph Smith, not Mary, not St. Sebastian, Gordon HInckley or Thomas Monson. Only Christ. Speaking of the church as a whole and not individually, Mormons rely wholly on His merits and His blood, considering themselves fools before God, and without illusion that any of their deeds, ordinances or performances can buy them a seat before the throne. These latter are only what James admonished, to shew their faith by their works.

In the coming day of grace, Christ will not ask those who stand before His bar, "Did you envision me as white, or black? Did you see me as One of three, or Three In One? Did you imagine me as a flying spaghetti monster or the face of Mary in a jar of peanut butter? Did you find My Word in the Bible only, or did you prove all things and hold fast to that which was good? Did you go to Church on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?" He, in His infinite wisdom, will ask us, "What did you do with My Word? Did you visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, mourn with those who mourn, strengthen the weak hands and confirm the feeble knees?" About religion, James said only that "pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." Mormons do this as well and/or as poorly as the collective members of any congregation, Christian or no.

My request therefore is to eschew using Mormons as the archetypical anti-Christ. It's not nice, and it's not true.

Respectfully submitted,
/s/

In response, I got the standard "baloney filter" email with the following boxes checked:

1. You are, quite obviously, hopelessly ignorant.
2. You are a self-righteous Pharisee with no interest in the truth – only in what you want to be true.
3. You have made errors in logic that show that conversation with you would be analogous to nailing Jell-o to a wall.

I confess that I was surprised by the tenor of this response - particularly the threat of reporting me to my ISP should I have the temerity to write again.

Well. If I'm to be insulted, it should be by real live people instead of a mailbot, so here I am. I am truly curious to see if the members of this community think that my email qualifies me as a screwball, or if I am unworthy of "any serious attention."

Please note that my mail to Mr. Holding was respectful, and it was neither a criticism of his faith, nor an appeal to convert to mine. I was simply asking him to stop demonizing Mormons, and taking the opportunity to posit that "Who is a Christian" should be answered more by how well a person walks the Savior's walk rather than whether or not they profess the Apostle's Creed; if a person claims to worship Christ and bears fruit worthy of His name, in my book that makes them a Christian.

I'm not here to challenge anyone else's faith, and I confess I am not skilled in polemics, but I shall read your responses - if any deem me worthy of such - with great interest.

[Sparko]

Moderated By: Sparko

although your topic is about mormonism, the real subject is JP Holding, and he doesn't venture into the LDS Mormon section, so I am moving your thread to JP's Tektonic's forum so you two can interact.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[Temp2009]

Thank you for the private message regarding the re-location of this post.

[jpholding]

Oh goody! A chew toy!

Well, chump, guess what! Your passive-aggressive giggle-fit won't impress the critical thinkers here. As to this:

What the? If you didn't get the email, Mormons are as Christian as Two-Seed-In-The-Spirit Predestinarian Baptists or Brethren Church of Christ (Reformed Dunkers). You can find such a variety of doctrine, practice and scriptural exegesis in the splinters of "mainstream Christianity" as to make any distinction between people based on how they think the Savior looks, or where you seek inspiration, meaningless.

Yawn....politically correct crapola. The Mormons violate numerous major doctrinal tenets of first century Christianity:

* They think God was once a human.
* They deny the Trinity except in a vague "social" sense (eg, it is a trio, not a trinity)
* They offer covenental nomism.

Where'd you get your understanding of Christianity? Off a pair of Fruit of the Looms?

Don't even try to appeal to other groups -- appealing to other people who are wrong doesn't make you right, chump.

Mormons worship Christ, and Christ only. Not Joseph Smith, not Mary, not St. Sebastian, Gordon HInckley or Thomas Monson.

Didn't say otherwise, chump. But their "Christ" is no more the Christ of the New Testament than George Carlin was. And no, don't feed me that lame line about "we believe he was born in Bethlehem too blah blah blah" -- when it comes to fudnamental identity issues, your "Christ" is not the orthodox Christian one, but a completely new product --- from J Smith's imaginative, decontextualized readings in King James English.

considering themselves fools before God, and without illusion that any of their deeds, ordinances or performances can buy them a seat before the throne.

Oops, didn't quite fill out the whole form, did we, chump? You're also covenental nomists -- keep up those works, or you're out of the covenant. If you happen to disagree -- you're not a Mormon; you're a splinter group. Good for you if you do disagree. But you're obviously not telling the whole story, and that's one of the reasons you won a Screwball Award.

In the coming day of grace, Christ will not ask those who stand before His bar, "Did you envision me as white, or black? Did you see me as One of three, or Three In One?

Oh, please with the PC rhetoric. Funny how if this is the case, Paul got onto people who reinterpreted the resurrection in Gnostic terms, or wanted to be circumcised; or how John condemned those who taught all kinds of heresy in Revelation....nah, I guess orthodoxy just ain't that big a deal....news flash: Orthopraxy is important too -- but not something you neglect orthodoxy in favor of. So quit using it as an excuse to excuse your own wrong beliefs.

My request therefore is to eschew using Mormons as the archetypical anti-Christ. It's not nice, and it's not true

Too bad. That is NOT what I do; you're just paranoid. I used them as an example because of the likeness of SDC's views to the Mormon "internal witness". No more, no less. Get the chip off your shoulder, chump; you're not the world's center.

I'll be back tomorrow to see if you have any more passive-aggressive self-righteousness to offer....in the meantime, I hope the group finds you entertaining.

[Pai Geacademe]

Temp2009, that was a very reasonable, cordial, and illuminating post. That being said, you are deceived in thinking God conveyed any special revelation to Joseph Smith so that you'd eventually hear it. Rather than grouse about Holding's cheap shots against your precious faith, your aim should be at the men who concocted and perpetuate Mormonic delusion. Mormomism is a fiction, just as Christianity is a fiction. Holding already tolled Christianity's death knell in his essay Why Johnny Can't Believe.

The church has 50 years left, and that's a pretty conservative estimate.

Wake up, brother. Aim your intellectual bullets at your own church not Holding. Your church inculcates children to believe utter nonsense.

[jpholding]

Temp2009, that was a very reasonable, cordial, and illuminating post. That being said, you are deceived in thinking God conveyed any special revelation to Joseph Smith so that you'd eventually hear it. Rather than grouse about Holding's cheap shots against your precious faith, your aim should be at the men who concocted and perpetuate Mormonic delusion. Mormomism is a fiction, just as Christianity is a fiction.

Wake up, brother. Aim your intellectual bullets at your own church not Holding. Your church inculcates children to believe utter nonsense.

Uhhhhh....wow. Scuse me....

OK. Proceed.

[Kabane52]

Sorry buddy, but Mormonism is heresy. As JP has already pointed out, it violates essential doctrines of Christianity. Some things are true, some are not. Historic Christianity is true, Mormonism is not. The gospel is offensive, I honestly don't care if you are offended. Mormonism is false doctrine, and exposing it as such is what Christians are called to do. We do not comply with heresy and lies.

[Teluog]

Yeah there's a reason why the early church formed creeds and doctrines, and why Paul warned of false Christs and false gospels: to prevent things like Mormonism and other heresies. I wonder if Smith and his followers knew anything about the early church. If not, then that's one reason to not trust them. All church leaders should be aware of some of the struggles the early church has been through.

[JAYMZ]

Yeah. There is a reason why Paul wrote Ephesians 4:14.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

Welcome to Tweb, Temp2009!

[Temp2009]

Well, chump

Well, Mr. Holding, your feedback was most enlightening. I had no illusions whatever about what sort of reception a Mormon would receive in this forum, but I did want to give you a chance to respond with your personal opinions instead of a snarky auto-response.

I honor you for taking the time to respond, instead of simply deleting my post, or ignoring it. I have read your comments, and those of the other members of your community. Your words are strong, and I have heard them.

That said, no man can shame another if that person refuses to be shamed. I consider myself a Christian, and it sufficeth me.

Whether you think me a heretic, or perhaps even a godless heathen, you will have to agree that someday we shall all stand before our eternal Judge. I look forward to that day - and to Him I will declare my faith boldly. If He sadly and lovingly consigns me to Hell, then to Hell I will go - "Peacefully. Quietly. I'll enjoy it." I suspect, however, that things will not play out that way.

Thank you again for a most interesting experience.

[jpholding]

That said, no man can shame another if that person refuses to be shamed. I consider myself a Christian, and it sufficeth me.

Translation: He can't answer the points where Mormonism diverges from the truth, so he wafts off with a "guilt trip" that goes "aw, poor me, you're sending me to hell, isn't that sad".

Unfortunately, since my view of hell is contextualized by agonistic templates, that one won't work.

And the part about shame is wrong too, since shame is EXTERNAL, concerning what OTHERS think. You can't stop it, and ignoring it won't change it, your modern, individualist pride notwithstanding.

Enjoy your life spending eternity doing this:

[Temp2009]

Enjoy your life spending eternity doing this:

Dear Mr. Turkel,

Cute. I see that I was wrong in asking you to stop demonizing Mormons: I should have asked you to stop demonizing everyone. That, however, would be like asking a chimpanzee to stop flinging muck - one does not change the nature of a thing by asking it to become what it is not.

• Edited by a Moderator •
http://web.archive.org/web/200611120...ag/024jph.html
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...lding-off.html

[Darth Executor]

Saying you're wrong isn't "demonizing". If he had accused you of drinking newborn baby blood, sacrificing virgins or thinking Joss Whedon can write a good story then you'd have a point.

[jpholding]

Dear Mr. Turkel,

HA HA! You sucker!

http://www.tektonics.org/jphforever.html

Congrats on being the latest gullible minion to fall for the "name game". Over a year late, too!

On the side....all three of those links belong to lunatic nutcases who I've beaten soundly in debate...and the last two (Till and Green) are widely regarded here as laughingstocks....links on my site answer each of those....

You won't see well with your head up there, Chump!