Question for JP

[Mountain Man]

I don't see why God can't communicate directly with people, but in terms of actual prophets who have the authority to speak on his behalf, I don't think they're around, and the ones who claim to be are unwilling to subject themselves to the test of scripture.

Still, it does amuse me when a preacher will stop in the middle of a sermon and say something like, "God is telling me that there's someone here tonight who is having financial problems, and you have a business opportunity that you are wondering if you should take. God says you need to stop doubting and trust him because he opened up that door for you." A shotgun prophecy like that will undoubtedly hit several targets.

[fiddlin-john]

If someone thinks so....I want to apply the Deuteronomic test to them....

So my answer is, I don't think so, but I'm open to correction.

I'm ignorant on the Deuteronomic test. Can you explain or reference?

Also, how does prophecy vs. revelation fit into the church today? Do you believe that God is still in the act of revealing His will in individuals' lives? As always, I'm open to instruction!

[jpholding]

I'm ignorant on the Deuteronomic test. Can you explain or reference?

Uh, Deut. 18:20-22....missed that in your readings?

Also, how does prophecy vs. revelation fit into the church today? Do you believe that God is still in the act of revealing His will in individuals' lives?

If He is....I want evidence.

[fiddlin-john]

Uh, Deut. 18:20-22....missed that in your readings?

I hear ya. I'm reading Deut again now, but I have a whole lot to learn.

If He is....I want evidence.

Follow-up
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version)

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If a false prophet is not to be feared, why must he be put to death?

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Follow-up
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 (New International Version)

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

If a false prophet is not to be feared, why must he be put to death?

Just this little thing called blasphemy. Israel thought it was a big deal.

You know, kind of a good way to hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake.

[fiddlin-john]

Just this little thing called blasphemy. Israel thought it was a big deal.

You know, kind of a good way to hopefully prevent others from making the same mistake.

I hear ya, slaughter 'em like JP does!

I'm also curious about the additional tests that can be applied besides the Deut test.

Seeing as how the Deut test says that we will know the prophet is false if what he speaks does not come true. So, how are we to discern the truth of those prophesies if they are not about immediate matters?

[Sparko]

I guess a smart false prophet would not make any nearby predictions, eh?

[fiddlin-john]

If He is....I want evidence.

So, for you who are so devoted to Christian apologetics, do not feel you were called to it? I know sarcasm is one of your initial weapons, but I am asking seriously and not trying to bait you.

[Bill the Cat]

What I believe we must be cautious of is trusting our own hearts for evidence of God "speaking to us". Part of the self-proclaimed "prophet"'s arsenal is their inisitence that God somehow speaks to them. But it is easy to press them on the Mormon's burning in the bosom as an equally valid form of hearing from God. When they fall back on their "word from God", they open themselves up to validating the Mormon claims.

[jpholding]

So, for you who are so devoted to Christian apologetics, do not feel you were called to it?

In what sense?

I think I was given the internal tools to do it...notably the right personality type (same as CS Lewis')...I think I had some experiences (not necessaily arranged divinely, though that is possible) that drew me into it...

Is this the same as hearing the voice of God? Not that I can see.

[Mountain Man]

I guess a smart false prophet would not make any nearby predictions, eh?

I'm not sure that would work, either, because unless he proved his authority as a prophet by predicting something that came to pass, nobody would have any reason to listen to him.

[fiddlin-john]

In what sense?

I think I was given the internal tools to do it...notably the right personality type (same as CS Lewis')...I think I had some experiences (not necessaily arranged divinely, though that is possible) that drew me into it...

Is this the same as hearing the voice of God? Not that I can see.

Hey, we're the same personality type then! Awwww!

But I do believe the Holy Spirit is actively involved in His people, and does provide revelation to His people. But Bill the Cat hit the truth there, it has to be subjected.

A modern day prophet has to be given a stricter trial than the Deut test provides. He also must be subjected to the Word, the tradition (orthodoxy), and reason... in that order.

[Rayado]

Uh, Deut. 18:20-22....missed that in your readings?



If He is....I want evidence.

I would even add that if God still speaks directly to individuals today, we cannot possibly say we have a closed canon of Scripture--because anything that is claimed to be given by God could, potentially, be just as divinely inspired as the books of the Bible.

I have a problem with the typical notion of people 'being called' into this ministry or that--because if you aren't in perfect lock-step with what God has planned for you, under such a standard, then it quickly snowballs into everyone being out of step with God's plan. It becomes very absurd very quickly. I think of God's will along the lines of a mix of several things: ability, opportunity, necessity, and something else that's slipping my mind at the moment. Is there a need, and do you have the ability? Then go. Is there an opportunity, and do you think that great good can be accomplished for the Kingdom? Then go. Do you think you don't have the ability, but see the opportunity, and the necessity of such a ministry? Then learn as you go.

[fiddlin-john]

interesting point rayado.

I think your first point is legitimate. And I can venture that God speaking today would be as divinely inspired as the canon. The existence of the Canon proves this to me. Had God not been revealing Himself, we would not have ended up with the Canon as we now have it, but could be sitting around dissecting Thomas. In the sense of Christ's promise of the Comforter coming, and the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost after Christ's resurrection, I would live in the assurance that that same Spirit is among us today. But I am not trying to box it in or out, mind you.

Your second point is right on as well. Preachers such as John Wesley and Martin Luther definitely felt a sense of revelation however in their ministry. Though here again, I do think some are called by revelation to preach. I won't debate their revelation since I was not there. Was it common sense meeting opportunity, or talent meeting need meeting opportunity... probably. Was the Holy Spirit calling them personally... possibly.

[Sir Wilshire]

I'm also curious about the additional tests that can be applied besides the Deut test.

Seeing as how the Deut test says that we will know the prophet is false if what he speaks does not come true. So, how are we to discern the truth of those prophesies if they are not about immediate matters?

Another important one is this.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (NIV)

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

© source where applicable

Basically the prophet better be right on the essential doctrines of Christianity. I would also add that I think this lends implicit support that they must have correct beliefs about the nature and operation of prophecy. This typically makes it easier to dismiss most modern prophecies because the people issuing them will believe something wrong about its nature and operation like I mentioned on page 1. This passage also shows that we interpret experiences by Scripture, not results (this would apply to the lady at Bill the Cat's church that he mentioned on page 1 in terms of determining if one should say God actually spoke to her). To answer your second question, if you can't find out information to apply the Deut 13 test, if the prophecy isn't falsifiable at all, and/or if it's fulfillment is too far off and they won't offer proof that they did hear from God, then it can be ignored.